Page 214 of 300

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:53 am
by Cerberus v666
House wrote:
Cerberus v666 wrote:
elusive wrote:ChriVi, don't worry I wouldn't replace out because of the chipmunk noises made by some random and I'm trying hard to refrain from doing anything modkill worthy which is lucky for you. I'll ISO you tomorrow instead and discuss the merits or lack of capability evidenced by what I find there. Considering the brief interaction here, my expectations should be set low shouldn't they?


For the record, ChriVi is mod confirmed as town to me. There are much better uses for your time then determining how scum they are.


You sure like throwing the phrase "mod confirmed town" a lot, when YOU aren't even "mod confirmed town".

Town cred shopping much?


No. I just don't want to see people wasting their time speculating about ChriVi's alignment when I already know it. What other phrase should I use though, to describe the situation? I think it's the only accurate one. Would you prefer I said " My role PM tells me that ChriVi is town" every time?

death: That's because I just posted a lot yesterday. Got really far ahead of work at the office and they didn't have much to give me, so I just followed the game and chimed in when I felt like it. Usually I read a bunch and say whatever's relevant to the direction the conversation has gone since the last time I posted, or I just don't post because nothing that's been said actually changes any of my reads of where I want to vote or push.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:46 am
by Bulbasaur Commonwealth
sudden bouts of apathy suck.

House wrote:Plotinus, ignore this scumtastic post.

I agree with you conclusion, but I think we differ on the why.

I personally dislike the "If you don't post your claim in your first post, you're scum!" part of it.

House wrote:Because you're rolefishing a player that's at L-FUCKINGSIX.

It's actually not THAT scummy to catch replacements on the lies of their predecessors?

House wrote:I know I do that pretty much every game I draw scum, because it's fucking hilarious to watch town waste time trying to figure out why Player X was killed over Player Y.

And you've probably lost a couple of those games because you decided to fuck with the town and shoot player X when Player Y was getting a bead on you and your team and then proceeds to either wreck your shit or help the rest of the town figure out the scumteam. And/or is an investigative role and successfully outs you or one of your teammates and thus spurs the town to victory.

You can't blanket the night with something like "always shoot the person they least expect". Sometimes you HAVE to shoot the cop, or the masons, or a confirmed townie because otherwise you're just screwing yourself.

Cerberus v666 wrote:House: agreed. It's terrible play for BP to let everyone know they're BP. AD, Drixx, and bulba have all done terribly in this regard, and it makes me suspicious of all of them. Scum is somewhere there.

Even though two of those claims were direct attempts to cc/conftown another player (even if the other play had accidentally (or maybe intentionally) given false information that affected their responses)?

Cerberus v666 wrote:It wasn't a guilty though. It was death making a case based on them not being investigatable. There were better ways to handle it than oh yeah, i jailkeep people! Reflexively! Target me and you're safe and your power won't work!

And we're supposed to just IGNORE that we're being called Investigative Immune? Please, explain to me how we're supposed to counter that without outing ourselves.

BRantz wrote:That isn't the issue with the post though Drixx. I agree with that part as well. The problem with the post is of course he thinks what he is saying is Neutral at worst, but different people will perceive what he says in different ways, so him trying to project that they are "finding scum reasons" unjustly is just bad.

...so has every other person in this game who's been called scum for their opinions?

I agree with Cerb's question a little bit further down. What's the point, here?

deathfisaro wrote:@BC
If multiple people target you, do they all get reflexive JK'd?
Why don't we No Lynch everyday, have all active roles target BC, get JK'd, and let non-towns kill each other in a crossfire or start shooting BPs?

I have hinted at the answer to this a couple times. The short answer is no.

Also, that suggestion is horrible. Mainly because it prevents the investigates from actually using their roles. I'd much rather they try to find scum and possibly get NK'd than waste their ability to get results by hunkering down in these imaginary jail cells.

Oranje Crush wrote:No house seems to assume he's doomed, I want him to reread as there's a chance we can keep him alive. He's the most important cop in the game as he gets plain alignment results.

Well, it's true he has the chance of being protected if he targets me, but I have the feeling he doesn't really want to investigate me anyways.

Narninian wrote:but just speculation on the existence of a neighborhood cop

...but Marquis DIRECTLY claimed neighborhood cop? And at the time we didn't know what his role was (and right now we STILL don't really know if his role is a neighbor cop or not)?

And if you are to be believed, only one team actually intentionally targeted Marquis in the first place.

House wrote:The only way to consider ChriVi as town is to kill Cerb.

Or...investigate him?

Novel concept, I know.

ChriVi wrote:Yes, let's kill someone who's most likely town instead of someone who could actually be scum in order to make 1 SINGLE PERSON conftown.

It's kinda true tho, in a sense? The only way we know you're town or scum for sure is if Cerb dies. Or gets investigated.

Toon Fighter wrote:why do we keep wagoning players replacing out? I just find the whole thing very scummy :/

vonflare's been a scummy lurker all game anyways.

I have small nagging doubts about if von's just not been active, which I suppose is natural, but at this point he's not town enough for it to matter.

Vote: Vonflare


Be back in about 4 hours to answer questions, etc. Pretty sure I need to re-do my reads, too.

-Ivy

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:39 am
by Oranje Crush
BC, that was the hammer. Speak now before mod closes the thread for the night.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:40 am
by Cerberus v666
We have 24h of twilight during which you can talk

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:16 am
by Drixx
Unvote


VOTE: BB

I'm still in favor of the skip but not sure this vote will count. Way for Ivy to hammer and pretend not to realize it was doing so.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:30 am
by elusive
Does the flip happen before or after Twilight?

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:47 am
by Cerberus v666
Before

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:52 am
by Narninian
and lynched people can talk (not that I expect to hear from vonflare)

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:12 am
by ChriVi
Plotinus wrote:I doubt I spent more than 10-15 minutes on anyone except myself and boon because I wanted to know why I was voting him.

Oh of course, nobody is going to freak the fuck out when Plotinus amishes, but when I do it leads straight to a mislynch.

Uugugghhhh

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:50 am
by elusive
My thoughts about the ActionDan and now Plotinus slot are dependent to some extent on House and his alignment. The way the wagon quickly jumped on him and off him makes me wonder if it were scum trying to bus a lurker for town credit. I also find his read wall and entry to be unusual. That being that for jumping into the game and barely reading he came in with very strong opinions then me for example and I've ISOed some people in-depth but am still trying to figure things out. Is that coaching? It seems like he's newer to mafia so I find it suspicious overall.

Oh and telling me and others to replace out ChriVI is kind of a weirdly passive aggressive thing to do and makes me want to needle you into a pie. Are you scum?

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:08 am
by Titus
ChriVi wrote:
Plotinus wrote:I doubt I spent more than 10-15 minutes on anyone except myself and boon because I wanted to know why I was voting him.

Oh of course, nobody is going to freak the fuck out when Plotinus amishes, but when I do it leads straight to a mislynch.

Uugugghhhh


Who says Vonflare is a mislynch?

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:09 am
by Cerberus v666
Not sure what amishes means.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:10 am
by Plotinus
I looked at Om the nom / elusive's ISO today. I picked this ISO today because it was near the bottom of my preliminary reads list for a reason that I knew wasn't a great one (what the wiki says about how vengeful should be played). I don't think I can do more than one of these a day, but it'll help me get an idea of how people are behaving.

Spoiler: This is really long
Early game (just getting out of RVS stage):
Om the nom seemed to be better at reading people than at writing. For example in he is already liking ogzin/house and disliking vonflare went on to not do anything useful in the following 5000 posts. He was wrong about soren in and probably about drixx if actiondan was right about what the setup spec thing mean about drixx, though drixx's behaviour looks kinda weird to me too so i dunno.

He does seem to be scumhunting in and before that too, and asking people some questions about other people. scum have some need to scumhunt too for real, as others pointed out recently, but I think scumhunting in public is still better than not doing it.

But over all I like the conversation between om and copper that spans a few pages and seems to end around

Mid day 1 (I guess from about post 300 onwards):

He continues scumhunting. I like that he focuses more on scumhunting than setup spec. There is some setup spec but the majority of his posts are about finding scum, finding out what other people think about potential scum, etc. Makes a case against Drixx in . It's a good case. It will stick with me when I later read Drixx in depth, because the case is based on the first 10% of the game and I do want to see how Drixx behaved in the last 90% too, but I like the case. Responds to drixx again in .

Going to take a detour to see whether it was Drixx or Dan that claimed first, and it looks like it was Drixx. Not sure I agree with his conclusions 100%. I mean we seem to be the same kind of role from different games, but the mods designed the games separately and then smooshed them together so we weren't designed together as counterparts for each other, I just happen to be a role from one game and Drixx happens to be a role from another game. It seemed obvious to Dan that we confirm each other but is it obvious to other people? Is everyone else thinking that my flip could confirm drixx or visa versa? It doesn't seem obvious to me yet. I think later when I do my own thorough readthrough of Drixx, I'll not take any setupspec things that I don't understand as a given. Hopefully, Drixx's behaviour will be enough to rely on instead but back to Om because this is seriously taking all day.

Correctly re-evaluates townread of ika mollie in .

Scumreads death for a while, but then he changes his mind because death's play reminds him of his own. I think if I were scum and were staging a rethinking of a scum read for some strategic purpose, that I would have not done so by drawing parallels to my own play. "He's super scummy because he's playing just like me oh wait never mind." I can see scum thinking something like that but I can't quite see scum saying that with their out loud voice. And then he takes some time (almost 2 days) off to think by himself.

In while talking about potential vig kill targets, he says points at Vyse/Dani/Swagrid/Jackel. Of those, one was scum, three are dead, and the one he was scumreading least of those 4 was replaced by Titus. I don't know if it means anything that Om wanted those 3 policylynched and they're all gone now, but I thought it was interesting.

Late Day 1 (1417 onward I guess)

Checks out of the game for a while because overwhelmed by it moving too fast. Townreads are molla, marquis, and tptg. Makes some more effort in . I don't understand all of his pushes at this time and I think I might actually have to read the 500 posts between 1417 and 1919 from all the people he's pushing against, so this is a note to self to do that later once I have more educated opinions about those people.

Day 2 (starts 2410)

I really hate naked votes because I can't tell just by looking if is a day 2 RVS or what. Okay, going back to read. In Oranje calls Lucian mod confirmed town. But then later people are voting for lucian so i am confused.

Okay, it looks like people thought lucian scumslipped somewhere on this page http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=2475 and so now i've detoured to lucian's iso to see what happens next there. Ozgin begs Lucian to use his shot on Ika, claiming he has a guilty on them, Lucian shoots and Ika dies. So now I understand why deathfisaro was urging to me to rethink both elusive and lucian — elusive because Om the nom has been looking really towny all this way and lucian because people were suspicious of him and shooting Ika after Ozgin told him too was strategically sound whether lucian was guilty or not, so I don't think lucian should get town points for that shot specifically — that's going to depend on the rest of his ISO but I want to finish with Nom today and come back to Lucian later.

Then Om vanishes for another few days only to surface with another naked vote for Lihin (), who ended up being town. A bunch of other people were voting Lihin too? And Oranje said he has a case against Lihin (). So basically the case was that Lihin's role was too unlikely. Sad it turned out that Lihin's role was true after all. Glanced at Lihin's ISO a bit and it didn't look supertowny but they already flipped town so it's a waste of time to look harder at them right now I think.

And that's it for Om for day 2. I'm not as happy with Om's day 2 play but I guess he could have lost interest. :/

Day 3 (starts 3661)

Elusive joins on . Om doesn't post at all from the start of day 3 until Elusive joins 5 days ago (1500 posts between Om's last and Elusive's first). Elusive seems to know something about VCA. I don't know anything about VCA, so I'm excited to watch her and Titus and maybe learn some things. Posts lots of notes on her readthrough of Vyse (dead scum)'s ISO. I'm curious what conclusions she draws from those notes.

She spends the next few posts making sense of things and seems about as overwhelmed as I am but she seems more experienced than me. She seems to have some measure of trust in drixx and titus but I'm not sure if this is from other-game rapport or what. Picks Brantz for the next ISO dive, and asks him some questions.

I am losing interest in typing this because I've been doing this all day but yes good scumhunting from this slot today. ISOs vonflare and peregrine.

tl;dr: Very little to complain about in Day 1. Good scumhunting. Good track record on early reads of people who have already flipped. Changes her mind gracefully when new information comes in. Day 2 was mostly inactivity and sheeping other people with a little bit of effort put in occasionally. Either lost interest in the game or was coasting on any townreads earned in Day 1. Elusive joined in Day 3 and did lots of reading ISOs and scumhunting so I'm pretty happy with this slot right now and they've slid up a few places towards the townier side of my reads list (I've actually moved her to just above Lucian, who was at the top of the middle).


Questions


Oranje, you said on day 1 in twilight that Lucian was modconfirmed town. If you still believe that, what did you mean by that? If you don't still believe that, what has changed your mind?

Elusive, what do you think of your predecessor's activity? Which of their reads do you agree with?

ChiVri, what does amishes mean? I checked the wiki but it didn't help.

@Elusive, I think you are overestimating how strong my opinions are. My vote against vonflare was somewhat more than RVS because I did ISO him before voting, and I hope i got lucky with my read on him, but overall I feel like I'm only just out of RVS stage. My opinion about almost everyone on my preliminary reads list is subject to change once I'm reading not skimming.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:11 am
by Plotinus
Plotinus wrote:tl;dr: Very little to complain about in Day 1. Good scumhunting. Good track record on early reads of people who have already flipped. Changes her mind gracefully when new information comes in. Day 2 was mostly inactivity and sheeping other people with a little bit of effort put in occasionally. Either lost interest in the game or was coasting on any townreads earned in Day 1. Elusive joined in Day 3 and did lots of reading ISOs and scumhunting so I'm pretty happy with this slot right now and they've slid up a few places towards the townier side of my reads list (I've actually moved her to just above Lucian, who was at the top of the middle).


I forgot to post the tl;dr part outside the spoiler like I had meant to.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:22 am
by Drixx
Cerberus v666 wrote:Not sure what amishes means.


The "Amished" tell is when a player replaces in and apologizes or makes excuses for the play of the prior player(s) of the slot.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:26 am
by Plotinus
Drixx wrote:
Cerberus v666 wrote:Not sure what amishes means.


The "Amished" tell is when a player replaces in and apologizes or makes excuses for the play of the prior player(s) of the slot.


Thanks for explaining.

I was just confused by Dan's vote because it was a naked vote without any explanation or context that I could find.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:51 am
by wgeurts
Oranje, you said on day 1 in twilight that Lucian was modconfirmed town. If you still believe that, what did you mean by that? If you don't still believe that, what has changed your mind?
Realising Day-Vig can be a scum role.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:04 am
by Drixx
wgeurts wrote:
Oranje, you said on day 1 in twilight that Lucian was modconfirmed town. If you still believe that, what did you mean by that? If you don't still believe that, what has changed your mind?
Realising Day-Vig can be a scum role.


We've already seen two repeated kill flavors, and there's some decent logic suggesting that the nuked from orbit is a delayed night kill, which would be three repeating kills. You think that scum would be given
another
kill on top of that?

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:06 am
by Narninian
Drixx wrote:
wgeurts wrote:
Oranje, you said on day 1 in twilight that Lucian was modconfirmed town. If you still believe that, what did you mean by that? If you don't still believe that, what has changed your mind?
Realising Day-Vig can be a scum role.


We've already seen two repeated kill flavors, and there's some decent logic suggesting that the nuked from orbit is a delayed night kill, which would be three repeating kills. You think that scum would be given
another
kill on top of that?


If nuked from orbit happens again, then I agree its really unlikely.
If it doesnt however... then who knows.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:20 am
by Cerberus v666
Vs a town with 5 nk immune, to different extents, 4 variants of cops, and least 4 other investigative roles, and ar least one protective role? I don't find it all that unlikely. Of course, any number of those claims could be fake, but if one assumes they somehow aren't, another kill for scum isn't game breaking.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:36 am
by Bulbasaur Commonwealth
Drixx wrote:
Unvote


VOTE: BB

I'm still in favor of the skip but not sure this vote will count. Way for Ivy to hammer and pretend not to realize it was doing so.

Why do you think I didn't?

And it won't. I don't think BB's the 2nd-most at this point and I'm actually...not that upset about it.

ChriVi wrote:Oh of course, nobody is going to freak the fuck out when Plotinus amishes, but when I do it leads straight to a mislynch.

Well, first off, we don't know it's a mislynch.

Second...you did?

Plotinus wrote:Makes a case against Drixx in 566. It's a good case

why?

I kinda don't believe Lucian is a scum dayvig.

-Ivy

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:43 am
by deathfisaro
Drixx wrote:
wgeurts wrote:
Oranje, you said on day 1 in twilight that Lucian was modconfirmed town. If you still believe that, what did you mean by that? If you don't still believe that, what has changed your mind?
Realising Day-Vig can be a scum role.


We've already seen two repeated kill flavors, and
there's some decent logic suggesting that the nuked from orbit is a delayed night kill
, which would be three repeating kills. You think that scum would be given
another
kill on top of that?

I thought I was alone in this.
Now since you're the first one seemingly agreeing on this, the delayed NK target has been already picked last night, the lynch has occured.
Do you think it's better for town for vonflare to also eat the nuke or is it better for someone else to get nuked since there's still some chance of crossfire?

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:47 am
by Bulbasaur Commonwealth
deathfisaro wrote:
I thought I was alone in this.
Now since you're the first one seemingly agreeing on this, the delayed NK target has been already picked last night, the lynch has occured.
Do you think it's better for town for vonflare to also eat the nuke or is it better for someone else to get nuked since there's still some chance of crossfire?

A.) You assume we have knowledge of who is doing this
B.) You assume that we have some level of control on this person
C.) You assume that we can get this player to do this in some fashion.

Do I agree that the delayed kill is a thing? Yes. Do I think that's all we know about it? Also yes.

Unless you'd like to out right now that you're the one shooting 'em because if so, please do.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:00 am
by Plotinus
Bulbasaur Commonwealth wrote:
Plotinus wrote:Makes a case against Drixx in 566. It's a good case

why?


It was well argued, I thought. Om's main case was that Drixx had been an active participant in the thread but hadn't done any scumhunting at all yet. The quotes Om uses in his post paint that picture and is an agreement with my own reading of Drixx's early posts. But those posts only account for the first 10% of the thread, so I want to read up on what Drixx's activity has been like since then before making up my mind about him. That post was over a month ago so a lot could have changed since then.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:06 am
by Cuttlefish
Vote Count 3.16

vonflare (10)
- Oranje Crush, BRantz, Plotinus, Narninian, BBmolla, ChriVi, Cerberus v666, deathfisaro, Boonskiies, Bulbasaur Commonwealth
Plotinus (3)
- PeregrineV, Drixx, Three-Pronged Trouser God
Drixx (1)
- Toon Fighter
Oranje Crush (1)
- vonflare
Cerberus v666 (1)
- House
BBmolla (0)
- Titus

Not Voting (2)
: elusive, LucianRoy

With 18 votes in play, it takes 10 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2015-04-11 10:14:33).
Deadline is suspended while I search for replacements.