Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!

[Varsoon]

Also, welcome to the Varsoon hour where I was right about Shoshin AND somehow also right to sheep Shoshin's reads.
Guess that shit DOES NOT MATTER because we still lost, but that's life, ey?

[Varsoon]

Sorry for being such a loser and a sore one at that
This ending just really, really sours me.

[Varsoon]

I also think that the flavor differentiation was worthless given I'd learn Zerg Kills anyway, our Vig and PGO ate dust immediately, and Zerg could just commit bullet-flavor kills anyway until the arsonist end-gamed.

[Varsoon]

My information turned out to be largely worthless, too, imo.

[Varsoon]

Town informed is a unfun role.
Design more fun roles next time that aren't just mechanics-wank and kill-people roles.
I think that's the cornerstone of unfun design to me.

[Varsoon]

The roles really should drive the game rhetoric and not be end-all-be-all interactions in themselves.
When your roles are just "You get hard info" and "You kill this person" and "You stop this person from taking actions" that isn't really fun (for me) and doesn't help drive the game of mafia (for me).
The fact that you had to do partial flips on informed roles should indicate how much of an issue it is to put them in the game in the first place.

[Varsoon]

Also, if scum were going to win on a no-lynch yesterday, then why was the game day even run at all?

[the worst]

I'm probably not inclined to take back the fact I thought Shoshin's third party play here was phenomenal. She emulated her towngame perfectly. Her intensity

increased

when the going got town (previous scum!Shoshin absolutely froze under pressure). From a meta pov, I'd have cleared her here every day of the week.

She correctly townsided where she needed to but floated out of townsiding when it was needed (even though she was immune to the zerg nightkill, it didn't occur to us to nk her once).

When crunch time came and the do or die moment was there, she capably picked the correct path to push her own wincon while pocketing like. basically the whole town. (she thought I was pocketed town and sorted to me which imo was her sole shortfall).

setup grievances are understood; this type of setup appeals to me a lot more than anything like... more role-madnessy. but I can definitely understand how it presents as underwhelming compared to like a lot of the super mega crazy role madness games out there.

I'd still give Shoshin massive credit any day of the week. (actually there are a few people who I think played spectacularly)

[the worst]

Also, if scum were going to win on a no-lynch yesterday, then why was the game day even run at all?

a win condition hadn't been met; arso/zerg are mutually exclusive. Shoshin had zergscum ignited. If we didn't lynch we woulda outed ourselves and she could have won.

[Varsoon]

Anyway

Nancy, while I did townread you based on your emotional response and tone, that's really NOT what should be garnering you a townread. In games, I keep seeing you take really hard personal offense to someone having a game-related reason to doubt you, and it makes it really hard to continue to play around you because
1. I don't like to be wrong and I feel like I have to stop putting pressure on you to figure out if I am wrong or not in those situations because
2. I don't want to actually hurt your feelings

[Varsoon]

Also, if scum were going to win on a no-lynch yesterday, then why was the game day even run at all?

a win condition hadn't been met; arso/zerg are mutually exclusive. Shoshin had zergscum ignited. If we didn't lynch we woulda outed ourselves and she could have won.

Except we didn't lynch and she still didn't win.
It's not about 'possibility' of ending, it's about the reality of what's in the setup going into the final phase
If a win literally was impossible, as it was here, from what I can tell, then game should have ended.

[Xtoxm]

i agree that the game should just have been called back when D4 started at 4:1:3
just write the win con such that equal numbers means auto win, regardless of whatever "theoritcal chance" still exists
it sucks for the town players that had to be taken along for the ride on those final days

varsoon, on d2 i was close to asking you to just blindly trust me on perf but i wasnt quite confident enough in my reads
doubt it would have mattered in the end though even if we got him on d2

im highkey happy that i was right about shos this game when everyone who knew her kept saying she was town

despite my frustrations i had fun in this game and some of you guys were really fun to play with
congrats on winning zergs, well played

[Varsoon]

I think that Shoshin did play well, but it's largely out of multiball considerations, since she could still actually, y'know, scumhunt.
And even though she played well, she still lost, because, y'know,
SETUP MISGIVINGS HERE

Also, yeah, I had fun on D1/D2, I guess? Maybe?
I don't really remember.
Glad I could play another one out with you, Xtoxm
Have more confidence in your reads and lay more casework next time.

[Mitillos]

Comments:

@theworst: My first post in the dead thread was a response to your post after my selfhammer. I realised you were scum on N3, which was one of the reasons I changed my night action (lucky you! :Þ). Your scumtell was the buddying. You were blatantly doing it all over the place, and I had unaccountably missed it until a reread. It would be understandable if you were just buddying those you played with before, but you were also doing it to me, a complete unknown.

@Shoshin: I would have loved to win with you, despite my hatred of being any sort of non-town role. You got unlucky with your dousing (in that most of the targets died soon after anyway), and with worst blocking your nuke. Your scumplay was excellent, and certainly on par with worst's (if not slightly better, because I figured him out and not you) in this game. Had I known that you were a bulletproof 3p, I wouldn't have tried to get myself lynched on D4, and created more chaos overnight instead. Still, I'm a bit annoyed that you wanted me to lose for playing to my wincon.

@N_M: You could be the best scumhunter ever, but this is worth absolutely nothing if you will not share your reasoning for others to see and follow. As far as I am concerned, your reads hitting the scumteam was luck, given the lack of explanations. Mafia is a co-operative game.

@Keyser: Don't rush to scumclaim. For one thing, 3p wouldn't know if they could trust you, or even if victory would be guaranteed at that stage, which is why I didn't accept your offer.

@Nauci: Don't rush to claim. Even if witch knew your action, scum would not, and you basically all but told us that you were investigative with your roleblocked claim. Also, be more paranoid.

@Nancy: Please stop making posts one after another, please don't quote entire walls if you are only responding to one thing, and please stop reiterating the same thing over and over. Because of all this stuff (as well as the massive amounts of useless back and forth between scum and 3p trying to fill the thread with noise, but that one's not on you) after a while I stopped reading the thread and simply started skimming everything. More importantly, I would have done the same as town. So, please try to be more succinct. Also, you should avoid being indignant at people for not townreading you instantly and permanently. They need time to sort you out, like everyone else, and if anything it shows that they respect you enough to not write you off instantly.

@Kokichi: As I said to N_M above, mafia is a co-operative interaction game, not a first-person shooter.

@Varsoon: I can understand disliking the multiball setup. However, the pessimism doesn't suit you, nor does the sardonic fake praise of another player. You're much, much better than this, and there were glimpses of you being better than this when you briefly stopped with that stuff, to the point that I was scared you'd lead the town to victory. Town was not gutted N1. It could (and should) have lynched scum for the next 2 day phases at the very least (specifically the godfather and the rolecop), and be just fine.

@Performer: Honestly, you should have been lynched D2 (D1 if people listened more), and the fact that you were not was more a failure of the town than any success on your part. Still, it worked well for both of us.

@the rest of you: You did well, but got unlucky. If the roles were distributed slightly differently, I'm certain town could have won this one.

@Krazy and his back-ups: I did my duty to Amon, and messed the terrans up. Thanks for the excellent modding!

[Varsoon]

Don't know why people are praising Shoshin's scumplay when she was third party in a multiball setup where she had to scumhunt to win anyway

[Varsoon]

I figured a lynch on Shoshin was impossible and since she was tonally reading as town anyway (because lol multiball, which is A HUGE PART why I fucking hate it and literally a part of why I resigned to lose this game the second I realized it for sure), so the next best thing was to see if we could just actually lynch all the other non-town fast enough
Guess not

[Varsoon]

And, yeah, sorry for the sardonic nonsense and ego-feeding I was doing, I know it's unbecoming, but it's incredibly frustrating to end up in yet another game that's designed in a way that's completely contrary to what I prefer to play, actually can play well in, and want to play.
It's frustrating to have a (correct) scumread on a player that everyone else is just handing free townreads to.

[Varsoon]

Maybe if I was a more convincing player, I could do something here, but I'm really not, and I've learned that walling up against a global townread solely out of ego often gets me lynched, which is something I wanted to avoid out of role consideration here anyway.

[Varsoon]

Well, I say solely out of ego, but I mean a mix of ego, paranoia, and suspicion.

[Varsoon]

I really don't like being jerked around and how the setup shook out, it was like a fucking nightmare specifically designed to jerk me around
OF COURSE I would be kept alive all the way through a LYLO I could literally never win.

[Mitillos]

We are praising her for her ability to pass as town, despite the fact she was not. We are praising her for coming close to the best scenario for her victory (remember, she needed to make sure that mafia was never the majority, but also that town was never free of mafia considerations, in order to win). We are praising her, because she strung along most of the town by the nose.

You say a lynch of Shoshin was impossible: that's kind of the point. That she made herself impossible to lynch. After that, the only way for her to die was if I redirected her to herself and she nuked, and I was never going to do that. She could have easily been called out more on her wagon-jumping and unexplained votes by the town - she was not. She could have been asked why she ignored scummy behaviour a couple of times - she was not. The town just accepted her as one of their own, and she fed into that.

[Varsoon]

I'm fucking sick of people positioning my play as something they can't possibly engage with because of out of game reasons.
If I'm that much of a cancer that people can't stand to play with me because I play in SUCH A FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT WAY or whatever the shit
I'll just stop signing up for games or something, goddamn
UNVOTE:
This whole thing pisses me off.

Legitimately disgusted that I had a correct scumread on Shoshin and this shit is what led me to backing off from it
I think I'm just not going to sign up for games anymore, or
like
The second someone pulls this bullshit, I'm going to hard replace.

[Varsoon]

She didn't 'make' anything.
And you say she wasn't called out when I LITERALLY CALLED HER OUT
I had a hard scumread on Shoshin AND cased out out VERY EARLY D1
And plenty of people, largely out of meta-gut that was soft-tricked because of multiball, didn't agree.

[Varsoon]

I was right, too, but then me having a scumread there was postured as 'out of game' cancer so I backed off from it because I didn't want to ruin another fucking game
So no.

[Varsoon]

This whole fucking thing pisses me off.