Mafiascum.net

In post 5308, Double the Trouble wrote:Oh no. Masons controlling the game. Let me complain about it and shade them so hard that maybe my scum team won’t get completely destroyed. That’s way easier than solving when nobody cares about my Ydrasse read.
- Norwee

To be fair Norwee.

You were a player in MBOS 10; you're quite aware that of the players who complained about the masonry controlling the game, only a fraction of them were actually scum. I think in that game there were like six or so players who complained, and of them, only one was scum, with literally all the rest being town.

So I wouldn't say complaining about the masonry controlling the game is scum-indicative.

In post 5322, Double the Trouble wrote:people were planting the seeds that would set up toogeloo to be elimination bait on days 1 and 2.
I know spiffeh planted a few of those seeds.
noraa planted them.

and naturally when the whole masonry gets outed and people realize that creature isn't scum and they're allowed to re-align their reads, then ofc people are going to put that slot back on their radar.

Like what ur saying starts to make sense but I can't see the pieces that are supporting that piece and thats because I don't think they actually exist.
You could argue dunn is supporting it by voting dunn but no one cares about dunn's reads at this stage of the game tbh. No one is going to care when dunn flips scum. People are still going to want to kill him, and even more so if polar bears flips town. Polar Bears flipping scum is the only slot I can see bussing toogeloo and would actually give him cred, but people aren't going to care about this cred. If Polar Bears flips scum but Spiffeh flips town by the time its F7 or F5, people aren't going to know where the fuck to go, and they're going to eliminate toogeloo.

Drafting people who stay under the radar is a losing strategy in this setup.
I lost doing it in Ali vs Titus where I drafted a MariaR + Dunnstral hydra, Reasonably Rational, Bitmap, and AaronFrost.

But its also kinda just impossible to talk you out of a tunnel which is very relatable tbh.

Like actually mastina, if toogeloo is town, what do you expect scum to do?
I expect toogeloo to be in a lot of people's scum pools and guess what happened.
and what ur suggesting is that a lot of people, enough to form an elimination without the support of
- 3 masons
- toogeloo himself cuz he ain't gonna self hammer
- deb because it makes no reason for him to support togeloo today if we decided to rotate there and honestly i wouldn't be surprised if he was okay with killing toogeloo for some reason.

Like
mastina come on
that's just a red flag

In post 5326, Double the Trouble wrote:

In post 5322, Double the Trouble wrote:people were planting the seeds that would set up toogeloo to be elimination bait on days 1 and 2.
I know spiffeh planted a few of those seeds.
noraa planted them.

and naturally when the whole masonry gets outed and people realize that creature isn't scum and they're allowed to re-align their reads, then ofc people are going to put that slot back on their radar.

Like what ur saying starts to make sense but I can't see the pieces that are supporting that piece and thats because I don't think they actually exist.
You could argue dunn is supporting it by voting dunn but no one cares about dunn's reads at this stage of the game tbh. No one is going to care when dunn flips scum. People are still going to want to kill him, and even more so if polar bears flips town. Polar Bears flipping scum is the only slot I can see bussing toogeloo and would actually give him cred, but people aren't going to care about this cred. If Polar Bears flips scum but Spiffeh flips town by the time its F7 or F5, people aren't going to know where the fuck to go, and they're going to eliminate toogeloo.

Drafting people who stay under the radar is a losing strategy in this setup.
I lost doing it in Ali vs Titus where I drafted a MariaR + Dunnstral hydra, Reasonably Rational, Bitmap, and AaronFrost.

But its also kinda just impossible to talk you out of a tunnel which is very relatable tbh.

Like actually mastina, if toogeloo is town, what do you expect scum to do?
I expect toogeloo to be in a lot of people's scum pools and guess what happened.
and what ur suggesting is that a lot of people, enough to form an elimination without the support of
- 3 masons
- toogeloo himself cuz he ain't gonna self hammer
- deb because it makes no reason for him to support togeloo today if we decided to rotate there and honestly i wouldn't be surprised if he was okay with killing toogeloo for some reason.

Like
mastina come on
that's just a red flag

AND BTW MASTINA
Flavor Leaf was IN Ali v Titus

In post 5316, Double the Trouble wrote:@Mastina
Solstice/Ircher/Ydrasse
Do you think any of the above slots are likely to flip scum?
- Norwee

No.

If any of those slots are scum?

Honestly?

Let them win; they've earned it. FL be damned, I don't give a fuck how much he arrogantly would claim "Just As Planned... " and try to claim credit for clearly having been such a good strategist that they won due to him.

I think that if any of them are scum, on their own merits as players, they have earned the win without one lick of FL's assistance, without one iota of FL's coaching/assistance/planning. The depth of play from both Ircher and Solstice has such breadth to it, I just don't see how they're ever scum here and if they somehow were? They'd have earned it because they are just genuinely and overwhelmingly such strongly town. I genuinely don't think that this is within either of their scumranges. If it is, I tip my hat to them because they are just that town.

Ydrasse, less so from me personally, but I believe that were pichu alive, he'd be giving a speech similar to mine on Ircher/Solstice, just on Ydrasse instead. In that I am placing complete and total faith in Ydrasse being to pichu what Ircher/Solstice are to me. That he would think similarly, that FL be damned, Ydrasse earned it by her own merits without one lick of assistance from FL, that he'd be pointing out the depth of her play and the nuances to it being beyond anything she's done as scum and being something he fully believes to be outside of her scumrange by being just genuinely and overwhelmingly strongly town.

If pichu is screaming from the grave that his read on Ydrasse wasn't that strong, then I apologize, but from everything I saw it legit WAS that strong so the only reason pichu would be screaming from his grave is if he was heartbroken upon being given access to the dead PT and devastated to find out his soulread was somehow wrong and crying that, in spite of us trusting him, that we are wrong to have done so.

Which is, again, to say that Ydrasse is to pichu what Ircher/Solstice are to me. For all intents and purposes, as far as we know: full trust in being town.

Hey, give me some credit.

GG FL

if dunn actually flips town ima fuckin howl that you traded DEB just to eliminate a slot that's basically a liability.

Ircher could be scum hidden in the townies

Doesn't he have a good grasp of setup balance? How is he ok with the implication of 3 masons, a cop, a vigilante, and a detective?

ok dunnstral I'm sure he is

In post 5325, mastina wrote:

In post 5308, Double the Trouble wrote:Oh no. Masons controlling the game. Let me complain about it and shade them so hard that maybe my scum team won’t get completely destroyed. That’s way easier than solving when nobody cares about my Ydrasse read.
- Norwee

To be fair Norwee.

You were a player in MBOS 10; you're quite aware that of the players who complained about the masonry controlling the game, only a fraction of them were actually scum. I think in that game there were like six or so players who complained, and of them, only one was scum, with literally all the rest being town.

So I wouldn't say complaining about the masonry controlling the game is scum-indicative.

Ok, i will give you that.
I could see town!Gloria complaining about the tyrannical masons here.

But they are still objectively wrong and should be shut down.

- Norwee

In post 5322, Double the Trouble wrote:Like what ur saying starts to make sense but I can't see the pieces that are supporting that piece and thats because I don't think they actually exist.

See, the thing is, you're framing it in this post as "how scum would set Toog up to be eliminated", and that is, in fact, where there wouldn't really be coherent pieces supporting that because they don't actually exist.

But from the frame of "town didn't truly have Toogeloo in their sights until later, and even after they do, they don't eliminate him"...the pieces very much are there?

Having one or two players suspicious of a slot on D1 when there's 15-16 players not suspicious of them, still means the slot is largely being ignored/written off/invisible.

And the proof that Toogeloo is resistant to being eliminated even after the invisibility cloak wears off is...literally in on how both on D2 and D3 he's not actually an elimination candidate. Yes, to some extent, this can be attributed to DEB vs Bell yesterday and DEB vs Dunn today combined with the masons outing, but even yesterday, he wasn't in Pooky's vig pool (which was, notably, a pool outside of Bell/DEB, the elimination candidates for that day), which means in the collective eyes of your masonry, on D2, Toogeloo was under the radar enough to not make that list.

And while he has made that list today, it's not an easy sell to make. People keep insisting on inserting names like Ydrasse, PBE, Spiffeh, Dunnstral, DEB, etc. into the list (well, Dunn/DEB is justified as in the vig list butstill), and Toogeloo volunteering to 'risk' a supersaint death is something that further disinclines people from eliminating him since they'll be inclined to leave him alive to 'test' the presence of a supersaint.

In post 5322, Double the Trouble wrote:Drafting people who stay under the radar is a losing strategy in this setup.

And yet, Bell was drafted as scum and he is precisely the same type of player--a player who, as scum, tends to fly under the radar in the earliest stages of the game.

You might think that, "Bell was under heavy suspicion on D2 so he wasn't a player who was under the radar???", but I ask you.
Take a look at D1.
How many players had Bell as suspicious on D1?
How many of these players (who were already few in number) tried to actually actively PUSH him on D1?

The answer to both is almost none, because Bell was, largely, under the radar on D1. He was exposed on D2 and put under the spotlight, where under the pressure he buckled and failed, but on D1 he flew by and large under the radar and was under no serious threat. (And to some extent, the proof of this is in Pooky's D1 elimination pool. Bell was not in it, which means to your collective masonry, he was not a scumread on your radar during D1.)

Just because it's not the winning strategy doesn't mean it isn't the strategy which actually was used.

In post 5322, Double the Trouble wrote:Drafting people who stay under the radar is a losing strategy in this setup.

Dr Easy Bake is under the radar.

We're wasting time now

All this speculation fails once it's revealed DEB is the scum

Toog is mafia yes

He's not getting away

honestly do I even need to give directions on how the game should be played out?
game just seems over and the more I think about this arguement the more I think about how trivial it is.

In post 5339, Double the Trouble wrote:honestly do I even need to give directions on how the game should be played out?
game just seems over and the more I think about this arguement the more I think about how trivial it is.

Whatever you say is the truth my liege.
Spare us from the troublesome thing we call free will and dictate our elimination order with your superior mind so that we may be spared the hassle of using our brain.

- Norwee

In post 5339, Double the Trouble wrote:honestly do I even need to give directions on how the game should be played out?
game just seems over and the more I think about this arguement the more I think about how trivial it is.

like even in the worst case scenario where the vig gets like roleblocked you still have the breathing room to eliminate 1 town?
That should be way more then enough.

I also always give credit to the majority of my scum team when I win scum games, so I don't like that comment.

In post 5335, mastina wrote:Just because it's not the winning strategy doesn't mean it isn't the strategy which actually was used.

I also feel obligated to mention: while this strategy may not have won Ali v Titus, it win camn V Pine--Pine's trump card player? Was Aristophanes. A player who was, for the vast majority of the game, under no suspicion at all. The player who, infamously, by the meme, eluded scumhunting god undisputed paragon of paragons Ellibereth. (In truth, not actually, Elli was killed N1 and did list Ari as a poe candidate for the fourth scum but after the other poe candidate Elli listed flipped town, the town collectively forgot that Ari was the other read and didn't sheep Elli fully because Elli was proven 'partially' incorrect, so to speak.)

Also, in Ali v Pine, while Pine's first 4 picks were not this sort of player, Iconeum and PenguinPower, his last two picks, .

Aristophanes, Iconeum, and PenguinPower are all players who I'd classify as being players who're largely out of focus early, and when they come into focus, are surprisingly damn hard to actually get an elimination on.

Pine drafted that type of player, and won both times, specifically because of this in the case of Ari's win tho less so in AliVPine, but it should be noted that Ali v Pine is a case of "it doesn't matter how obvscum a slot is if you don't actually eliminate them" with the town having mutually come to many correct consensus scumreads but losing due to pursuing the town players they also scumread.

It having lost in Ali v Titus does not mean it is, in general, a strategy doomed to lose.

It'll probably lose this game, sure! But that doesn't mean it is innately inherently destined to, and even were it so, that doesn't mean FL didn't opt for it thinking in his arrogance that he'd be able to make it work where you failed to earlier.

Be honest; do you think FL looks at your failure and thinks he, the literal Don Corelone, can't manage to pull off what you didn't? Do you think he looks at your failure and thinks it is something innately destined to fail? Or do you think he looks at it, analyzes it, and thinks about what he'd do differently to make it work?

wow there's like meta for this stuff? :3

Just title fairy me The Cockroach already mastina, sheesh.

How noble of Toogeloo to offer to hammer me

How noble of Toogeloo to offer to hammer me, despite the great risk involved

In post 5326, Double the Trouble wrote:Like actually mastina, if toogeloo is town, what do you expect scum to do?

I mean, there's basically nothing different between Toog-town and Toog-scum. Regardless of Toogeloo's alignment, he is in the poe pool for scum, but scum know that the poe pool is too small--scum need to widen the poe pool and try to get the town paranoid/suspicious of town players that are otherwise lockscum.

Entertaining me as scum, Ydrasse as scum, Ircher as scum, Solstice as scum, and personally in my personal opinion, Polar Bear Express as scum.

If scum cannot convince the town to eliminate in the above players, they are doomed to lose the game.

So, literally, nothing different between Toog-town and Toog-scum. They have whatever read on Toogeloo they think is the towniest for them to hold, and try to expand the poe pool to include town names it otherwise shouldn't/wouldn't.

Notably, Toogeloo/Dunnstral/Spiffeh have all done this to some extent. (Yes, Ydrasse/Ircher/Solstice/PBE to a lesser extent have also done so by being somewhat suspicious of each other, but I'd call Toogeloo/Dunnstral/Spiffeh worse offenders overall.)

In post 5345, Toogeloo wrote:Just title fairy me The Cockroach already mastina, sheesh.

I would nth this.

- Norwee