(And it also deals with my theory I wanted to post up tomorrow. That scumslip was helpful to me)
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:45 am
by The Mini-Librarian
Why Mork's case is crap.
It looks as though you're exceptionally eager to point out that, while you were scum last game, you aren't this game. It's very possible you were doing this so that we would ignore the possibility of you being mafia.
Um no. This is not a scumtell. I don't see how this makes us ignore the fact he could be mafia. It's a blazing null tell if there ever was one.
You were pushing rather hard for a fennin lynch at the end of the day, yet he flipped town. You were clearly using this argument, i.e. no scum in their right mind would push uber hard for a town lynch, as an argument for why you weren't scum by your actions. This is untrue, for some scum will push hard, using this argument to try to prove their townliness.
I do agree with you that Maru's pushing is a nulltell. But luckily for us THAT'S WHAT MARU SAID. All he was saying was that his pushing wasn't a scumtell, which it isn't.
look pretty genuine to me. I really don't like the way you answered the question either. Most of your response was on a tangent that had nothing to do with my point. It appears to me that you were trying to evade the brunt of my question to move the argument into a region you were better suited for, i.e. yourself and mafia theory.
After you defend Kondi, basically you accuse Maru of evading a question of yours. Maru ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION. I don't know what more you want.
wrote:Now that's just rude. First off, I love that you immediately take the role of the victim here. 'Oh, you are so cruel to me! Try reading the game without assuming I'm scum, why don't you?' Hah!Secondly, I cannot stand your argument. We shouldn't try to string up uncertain reads with half the town AWOL? Of course not! HoweverIn post 433, kondi2424 wrote:Hey Maru you're stretching it. I wanted Fennin lynched ASAP because 1. He was fucking scummy, 2. He was useless, and 3. Getting a wagon on you would just mean another claim, and we don't really WANT scum to know everyone's roles.VOTE: MaruchanBy the way, Phil is most definitely a legit Vig.How on earth is this someone trying to string up a suspect. He's voting you and explaining his push for a fennin lynch, which you've already argued was not scummy in itself. Obviously you panicked when you read this. In fact, I fail to even see the scum slip! This is not the push of someone trying to lynch.Finally, fabulous insult at the end there. It was completely necessary to the argument and does not look in the least like a scummy Appeal to Emotion. Just sayin'...
First off, ATE is not a scumtell. It's a logical fallacy and people shouldn't use it, but it's not a scumtell because people use logical fallacies regardless of alignment.
THE REST OF THIS SECTION IS DEVOTED TO YOU BREAKING DOWN HIS ATTACK ON KONDI, NOT SHOWING HOW HE IS SCUM.
The last section shows...well that you don't like Maru. Whatever. I don't care if you do. THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE'S SCUM.
That's the whole case. It's just plain wrong.
--
Also, you have a town read on Chimera? Why?
Never said I did. Just wanted to hear his reads since he's been sitting on the fence so long I think his ass might start to bleed. (oh and look he still is)
--
@mod: I want this to be a game. A real game. Right now you are single-handedly hurting us by not getting the replacements in a timely manner. We have a player slot we literally no nothing about. Please find us replacements as soon as possible.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:48 am
by Lord Mhork
↑kondi2424 wrote:Pretty far up. If he's town, I'll be pissed. With 1/3 of the players left alive being mafia, I'm pretty sure we've got one here.
Plus I'm pretty sure he scumslipped so
Yes, Maruchan, that very well could have been a scumslip.
kondi, why did you specify a fraction exactly?
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:18 am
by Maruchan
if he had added a single use of the word "likely" before his fraction, I would not have minded.
He just seems to sure about KNOWING the scum # we have left.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:20 am
by Chimera
↑Maruchan wrote:It's dying because lord mhork has gone CHAINSAW MARUCHAN mode, which I have a theory I will post about tomorrow when I am feeling better I just realized earlier today btw.
Really? More of this chainsaw argument? I thought we had beaten that horse to death multipletimes already....
Also, how is my case on Kondi hypocritical exactly? What have I called him out on that I haven't done
Here is what I said, here is what Phil said. Your above argument is almost purely AtE which as I showed in 519 is something you told Kondi to stop doing. Kondi's original slip (the list of three points) was flimsy at best and your own later on (for which you gave him a label of "troll"...not that I disagree but it's still a point) is stronger.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:19 am
by Maruchan
He didn't explain how I was "scumslipping" he just deliberately tiped lyke dis 2 encyte dramaz lamaz (AKA: Trolling) and called it a scumslip. Not being scum, I didn't understand how he was calling it a slip, so I assumed he was just trolling. Then Lord Mhork came around and explained how it actually was a slip.
So Yes, I called him a troll for the way he addressed my "slip"
And your reference to kondi's ORIGINAL slip, wasn't his original slip. the original slip was D1 not wanting me lynched.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:17 am
by kondi2424
You know what, I really don't care. This game has turned to semantics and trying to find scumslips. Lynch me and lynch Maru tomorrow, because I don't want to live to endgame. Give me time for reads, though.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:29 am
by Maruchan
You say that like it is not in any way your fault at all.
You're the one who played the "OH YA YOU CALLED ME O NA SLIP NOW I'LL CALL YOU ON A POSSIBLE SLIP TOO" card.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:18 am
by Chimera
↑Maruchan wrote:And your reference to kondi's ORIGINAL slip, wasn't his original slip. the original slip was D1 not wanting me lynched.
But you didn't see it as a basis to even cast a preliminary vote. Why not?
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:20 am
by Chimera
↑kondi2424 wrote:You know what, I really don't care. This game has turned to semantics and trying to find scumslips. Lynch me and lynch Maru tomorrow, because I don't want to live to endgame. Give me time for reads, though.
I WOULD say to replace out if this is the case...but our mod doesn't seem to be able to get replacements at all....
@mod: please at least post in the replacement thread...give some indication you're trying to find replacements.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:36 am
by kondi2424
No, then you would just lynch my replacement. (or Maru)
↑kondi2424 wrote:I don't know you're scum. If you're town, scum would learn your role.
This is a shit line for anything related to the person you are trying to lynch.
If you aren't sure someone is scum, you don't push for a lynch LESS THAN 24 HOURS INTO THE DAY. That is STUPID. You let the game progress, gather more information, and discuss shit while building up a more incriminating case to solidify you're read.
Now, if we were 24 hours from DEADLINE, this reasoning wouldn't be shit. But because we still have plentiful time left, you should not be trying to push an 80% read.
THAT is why you're reasoning is shit.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:06 pm
by Maruchan
I would rather play with and lynch or not lynch someone who is trying than deal with "woe is me woe is me i cant defend myself woe is me"
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:16 pm
by kondi2424
But you're already set on me being scum, so it's not actually playing.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:24 pm
by Chimera
So...you said to not call people scum unless you're sure they're scum (using your definition of "sure"). You called him scum in 522. You're holding a double standard here somewhere.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:37 pm
by Maruchan
↑Chimera wrote:So...you said to not call people scum unless you're sure they're scum (using your definition of "sure"). You called him scum in 522. You're holding a double standard here somewhere.
you misread my post.
I said you don't string up for a lynch unless you're sure. I didn't string him up for a lynch (AKA: No vote). I merely pointed out my observations, and applied pressure. Later, when I was more sure, I called him scum and expressed my interest in his lynching.
Just noticed something, IF indeed there are 3 scum left, I believe it is impossible for town to win unless SK/VIG shoots at scum. Even if we lynched all 3 scum, unless the sk/scum/VIG shoot each other, that leaves behind 1 townie 1 SK going into a night phase.
Food for thought. Better hope we A: don't have 3 scum, B: don't have a shitty vig (if phil is indeed the vig, B is out of the question)
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:42 pm
by Chimera
Telling someone they made a good scum-play is effectively calling them scum, imho. But that just may be me...
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:49 pm
by Maruchan
It is.
I was saying I never said to not call people scum unless you're sure, I was saying to not string up a lynch unless you're sure.
You and Mhork have both come to the chainsaw aid of kondi as well as both blatantly misread and misinterpreted everything I have said.
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:54 pm
by Chimera
↑Maruchan wrote:I was saying I never said to not call people scum unless you're sure,
Wut?
↑Maruchan wrote:Don't call someone a scumbag if you don't think 99% they are a scumbag, sir scumbag.
↑Candy Corn Vampire wrote:yeah there's something wrong here. this game started yesterday. VOTE: fennin
↑Malee wrote:Putting Kondi at L-2, based on what exactly?
This is nonsense. *yawn*
If and when Kondi or either of these two ever flips scum, I will be looking at the remaining two.
Were you saying "Hey, melee's comments are kind of scummy"? Really?
So, you agree in #133 that kondi gets pro-town "points" for his correction, and that there is no "scum-motivated reason" to make that post. Kondi isn't your #1 scumspect anymore. In fact, he's #3. Yet, you continue to harp on CCV for chainsawing kondi.
↑Maruchan wrote:
Ninja'd @CCV: Chainsaw'n it bro. Chainsaw'n it.
↑Maruchan wrote:
Again, why are you chainsawing so hard?
I like phillammon more than kondi aswell, but CCV moreso than both
↑Maruchan wrote:
you're scummy for chainsawing, and saying that making cases out of RVS is bad (when its the only way out of RVS)
In fact, here, you state that it's a key part of your case. [More on the second part of this sad, sad case later].
If you're going to accuse somebody of chainsawing, shouldn't you be REALLY damn sure that the other person in question is scum? And you know, not your #3 scumsuspect? Why are they "chainsawing" instead of just regular defending or even buddying?
Kondi's case was shit-all RVS reasons that are but tiny blips on a scumdar, but when there is nothing yet, those tiny blips were all that could be seen at the time.
AKA: Kondi did a handful of things that were so minorly scummy that they don't really matter other than in RVS, when nobody else has done anything. He has since redeemed himself from those tiny things.
But then HOW ON EARTH COULD YOU CLAIM THAT CCV IS CHAINSAWING KONDI IF YOU DIDN'T EVEN BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS A STRONG CASE ON HIM?
Appeals to emotion are uncool, except when I use them.
↑Maruchan wrote:
When you re-join this argument with less ATE bullshit, and more logic, I will happily continue to pwn you in it. You're whole "when I get lynched" attitude makes it appear as if YOU have given up the fight.
The AtEs you've done are worth a whole 'nother spoiler tag, so I'll list them there.
Spoiler: REASON #2: Hey, you know that AtE spoiler tag? Here it is
Here's another hint: ZOMG MARU REFUSED TO UNVOTE BECAUSE SCUMMY GUY CLAIMED PR HE MUST BE SCUM CUZ PR CLAIM AUTO MAKES HIM INNOCENT NO MATTER THE PAST SCUMMIENESS.
↑Lord Mhork wrote:Would you rather people just sit back and wait for reads to develop 'naturally'? That's scummy thinking. If an 80% read is the strongest you have, you pursue it. That's the way reads grow and are formed. The more I look at your posts, the more I feel like you're really just overdefensive scum determined to throw mud on your accuser through a manufactured scum-slip.
PLEASE take off your MaruIsScum-colored glasses and READ MY POSTS?!?!? I didn't say to not PURSUE reads, I said don't try to actively string up an early-day lynch on an uncertain read. God you need to go back and actually start READING my posts and quit skimming. your sentence is exactly correct. Pursuing reads is how they grow and are formed. You ask questions, you make comments, you DON'T try to string up an early-day lynch, with half of the game AWOL, with plenty of time till deadline, on an UNCERTAIN read.
The more I look at your posts the more I think you just don't know how to comprehend and understand the difference between words in the English Language.
↑Lord Mhork wrote:Perhaps, Maruchan, you could explain if you think kondi is scum for any reasons other that this 'scumslip,' yeah?
Sure yeah, when you go back and A: read the game, and B: address the other clear-as-day points I made DURING DAY TWO ALONE against kondi. I'll give you permission to not re-read Day one. But go back and read all of day two, and find the kondi-related comment I made that you seem to have missed (since you only skim my posts with your "MaruIsScum Colored Glasses" on)
↑Maruchan wrote:
The rest of your post I'm to sick of trying to get through to you to even care about. You still haven't addressed the first kondi point I made today, competently acted like it didn't exist, and you still haven't stepped back from your Maru-is-scum colored glasses to even read my posts that have good explanations.
Stop playing the bloody victim.
Spoiler: REASON #3: I strawman like it's going out of style.
↑Maruchan wrote:
Anyways, If you don't want a case built on RVS stage, then how do we ever get out of RVS? Cases built on shit that turn out to be shitty themselves is what starts the game. Otherwise we would be perpetually stuck in RVS.
Strawman #1. She didn't say that she didn't want "cases". She said that she wanted cases that weren't based on fluff. That's one particular kind of case, that she feels is pathetic and therefore shouldn't be utilized.
↑Phillammon wrote:Sorry, wanted to make sure that got in. I want to pursue this line of questioning on Maru quickly
Translation: "I'm hoping my failed attempt at the Maruchan wagon will come back rather than lynching my scum buddy, even though we all agreed to lynch him when he claimed, and he has claimed"
Strawman #2. Oh wait, no. This is a perfect representation of what happened. After all, it's not like Phil proceeded to vote Fennin again, right? Oh... wait...
↑Phillammon wrote:You know what? Okay. We can chase up the lynch-rushers after the flip, tomorrow. [Vote:] Fennin
But hey, maybe that was posted after you made this one... nope. It was hours earlier.
↑kondi2424 wrote:3. Getting a wagon on you would just mean another claim, and we don't really WANT scum to know everyone's roles.
Scumslip.
If I claimed, scum wouldn't know any townie's roles by your hypothesizing.
Strawman #3. BZZT. That was in no way a scumslip. Suspicion does not = certainty. You note this yourself. Outside of role info, certainty isn't smart in most cases. And regardless, if you fakeclaimed a PR, somebody could CC you. Thus, another claim would be out in the open anyway.
↑Maruchan wrote:
If you aren't sure someone is scum, you don't push for a lynch LESS THAN 24 HOURS INTO THE DAY. That is STUPID. You let the game progress, gather more information, and discuss shit while building up a more incriminating case to solidify you're read.
Now, if we were 24 hours from DEADLINE, this reasoning wouldn't be shit. But because we still have plentiful time left, you should not be trying to push an 80% read.
THAT is why you're reasoning is shit.
Strawman #4. I think I'll let Mhork cover this one:
↑Lord Mhork wrote:
Secondly, I cannot stand your argument. We shouldn't try to string up uncertain reads with half the town AWOL? Of course not! However
↑kondi2424 wrote:Hey Maru you're stretching it. I wanted Fennin lynched ASAP because 1. He was fucking scummy, 2. He was useless, and 3. Getting a wagon on you would just mean another claim, and we don't really WANT scum to know everyone's roles.
Maruchan
By the way, Phil is most definitely a legit Vig.
How on earth is this someone trying to string up a suspect. He's voting you and explaining his push for a fennin lynch, which you've already argued was not scummy in itself. Obviously you panicked when you read this. In fact, I fail to even see the scum slip! This
↑Phillammon wrote:Okay. All I've got is possible scum on a subset of Kondi, Maru and Fennin. Probably not Fennin, tbh, and Pizzadudes and IceGuy are on shaky ground until there's some actual content to work on. I'm less suspicious than I ordinarily would be about my wagon, given I did indeed look very scummy.
God you have the most wishy washy reads I have ever seen in my life.
I for one, won't unvote, as I am not so sure i totally believe you're claim. The breadcrumb was made way later than an average breadcrumb should be, and it is just as easy for scum to breadcrumb vig as it is for a vig. And vig is a safe role for scum to breadcrumb because they can "prove it"
Ok, I believe this is a somewhat scummy post. All Maruchan does here is through doubt on this claim, for rather small reasons too, such as that the breadcrumb was 'too late' and it's really easy for scum to breadcrumb vig. I disagree, by the way, Maruchan. I think serial killer is more likely to claim vigilante than scum. People get suspicious if there aren't enough deaths happening. My point is that you really didn't give any real reasoning as to why you think the claim is fake.
Your definition of scum is different then mine.
Mine is: scum= Not town
SK=scum by my definition.
And i obv think the claim is fake because i think he is scum, and that doesn't go away due to his claim. That should be rather self-obvious.
Here's another hint: ZOMG MARU REFUSED TO UNVOTE BECAUSE SCUMMY GUY CLAIMED PR HE MUST BE SCUM CUZ PR CLAIM AUTO MAKES HIM INNOCENT NO MATTER THE PAST SCUMMIENESS.
thats why there is a wagon on me more like.
Strawman #5. Umm... or it could be because he found that previous post of yours scummy due to certain reasons? You know, the reasons you just responded to right above that comment.
Spoiler: REASON #4: Let's burn through D1 as quickly as possible! That can only end in good!
15 days before deadline:
↑Maruchan wrote:
This is near the same thing Malee said once, and here is my response:
You want more discussion? Anything in particular? Do you have questions/comments that still need to be made? If so then make them! And everyone else do the same. I can't think of anything else right this second that needs to be said or addressed, and if nobody esle can, then waiting just because we have the time to stagnates the game and makes everybody get worn out.
I will gladly spend more time discussing and playing, if you give me something to discuss or answer or question. But based on the content we already have there is nothing.
Admittedly, this is somewhat counteracted by the "But I want people to post too!" comment after 8 sentences essentially saying that the game will stagnate if a lynch doesn't go through quickly, if nobody can think of anything to discuss immediately.
1st, I already addressed, second if you fucking want it, go fucking count and post it. Lets not all fight to see who can sit on the couch waiting the longest for someone else to do it?
Chimera responds to this one pretty well:
↑Chimera wrote:...and we've only had five people, well, six, sort of, say anything for the vigshot. That's just over 50% of the players. Imho it would be nice to see some more opinions submitted. That said Iceguy's suggestion/vote is pretty good...I'm in support of that...
↑Candy Corn Vampire wrote:a replacement for glynman and the guy we're trying to lynch come back and say a word or two.
So we should wait 18 hours and let the game stagnate.
why not.
Waiting 18 hours does not = stagnation.
12 days before deadline
↑Maruchan wrote:
How far is he from the replacement timer? Are you really wanting us to wait for multiple days now with nothing more going on, purely to allow the guy we all have the intent to lynch to claim? God this site has had it drummed into its head to hard "Vote. Claim. Lynch", you all see no alternative. This is almost as bad as umbrage blacklisting me for successful hammering him when he was Scum JOAT without a claim, and he would've claimed JOAT which would've kept him alive.
↑Maruchan wrote:As shown previously, he refuses to calim.
Yo uwant us to wait for a claim, then he will delay the game for 20 some odd days and force a no lynch.
And I can go on.
And then there's the scum slip. It felt pretty revealing to me when it was said, and then Maruchan says absolutely NOTHING in response to kondi pointing it out. To me, that feels like scum knowing that they were caught, quickly throwing out a reply, and then stalling until they can come up with something after it is pointed out again by Mhork. I didn't find #539 a convincing explanation at all, either. And it feels like this explanation as town would be simple enough that Maru has had enough time to post as much as they have after Mhork's post, they could have covered it.
Maruchan: What is your read on Mhork at the moment?
I'd vote, but I believe we still have the vig and hider issues, and I really want to hear more from Chimera. Otherwise, it feels like people are at least saying SOMETHING.
