Mafiascum.net

I'm not going to say it. But I'm happy you unvoted.

I don't know what to say further though. I do not know how to put more convincingly how I believe pitoli is scum. I could rehash the argument again how she's given us an insight in her motivations and that we can see they aren't town, but I guess that's not what you people use to scumhunt. I myself think the angle where you talk about her very passive response to accusations (it's actually other people who defended against it) is less convincing, though it's part of the picture of course. The quotes below were the response to me pushing her. That's not a defense, that's giving in.

In post 524, pitoli wrote:oh lord not this again

more later when my mind isn't fuzzy

In post 527, pitoli wrote:TPR I think I get what people have been saying when they said you feel town. Bc you do.

She's by far the best lynch we could have today, I believe and know that. I just don't know how to explain it to you.

Explain what exactly you found wrong with those two posts.

I'm gonna sheep TPR today. She is the only one I'm certain could not be scum.

In post 552, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:I'm gonna sheep TPR today. She is the only one I'm certain could not be scum.

How can you be certain?

Yo TiP I see you been posting elsewhere on the site but not here where you at

(Reading the other things that I need to respond to now, but I wanted to post that before I forget)

Also

In post 552, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:I'm gonna sheep TPR today. She is the only one I'm certain could not be scum.

*COUGH*

Because of the playerlist I have reasons for everyone to possibly be scum. Through all the massive walls I cant figure out who is scummier. She is the least scummy so she must be town.

I'm conftown.

In post 556, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:Because of the playerlist I have reasons for everyone to possibly be scum. Through all the massive walls I cant figure out who is scummier. She is the least scummy so she

must

be town.

That is horrible reasoning, mainly because of the underlined.

In post 556, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:Because of the playerlist I have reasons for everyone to possibly be scum. Through all the massive walls I cant figure out who is scummier. She is the least scummy so she must be town.

There's an inno child in this game. That's the obviously wrong part, but there's so much else wrong in this post.

Obviously, LS, you are not included in my list of possible scum. -.- Does this really need to be stated?

Bulb, so what. You can think it's terrible all you want. It stands to reason she is more than likely to be town.

You, sangres and F16 have cluttered up this day with back and forth walls that are distracting to say the least, and ultimately scummy. You have made it impossible to read the day with any ease, or to determine what's actually going on. There is such a thing as "too much content" and it's not fair to the rest of us for you to dominate the game this way. It's one thing to interrogate people who you are looking into, but it's entirely another to make it impossible to read anyone. Each of you bring up good and bad points. You each have some good logic and some faulty logic. None of it is alignment indicative. It is fucking useless and a waste of time.

So if you are not happy with my decision about TPR then that is your problem, not mine.

Not to mention burying the rest of the people so not only can I not read the 3 of you, I cannot read the others because of the 3 of you.

In post 550, The Purple Rose wrote:I'm not going to say it. But I'm happy you unvoted.

I don't know what to say further though. I do not know how to put more convincingly how I believe pitoli is scum.

I could rehash the argument again how she's given us an insight in her motivations and that we can see they aren't town

, but I guess that's not what you people use to scumhunt. I myself think the angle where you talk about her very passive response to accusations (it's actually other people who defended against it) is less convincing, though it's part of the picture of course. The quotes below were the response to me pushing her. That's not a defense, that's giving in.

In post 524, pitoli wrote:oh lord not this again

more later when my mind isn't fuzzy

In post 527, pitoli wrote:TPR I think I get what people have been saying when they said you feel town. Bc you do.

She's by far the best lynch we could have today, I believe and know that. I just don't know how to explain it to you.

Your bolded statement really resonates for me from a mafia theory perspective. But, I haven't seen the line from behaviors back to scum motivation that you're describing.

Bulb I think I buy your #546. Still doesn't really alleviate my concern of the sudden Pit read disappearance.

In post 547, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:LastSurvivor, Nacho (and ffery if you are willing to discuss) what do you think of this? I see his loss of a Pitoli scumread as completely effortless, he doesn't even mention it. Rather it is implied. His actions on both sides of the line make complete sense considering his Pitoli read. I am not sure if Binary vs Continuous thought processes are necessarily alignment indicative.

Personally I think binary v continuous read switching might just be a playstyle thing. H/o, there are two things that make Bulb's read switch just feel off.

> A lack of strong reaction to #438. If this was the post that really "changed it all," as you say, then why was his only response to it "fair enough"?
> #438 itself was a post where Pit spends a LOT of time defending Bulb. I think it's more likely that Bulb saw he could make an ally out of Pit vs an enemy and started subtly buddying her as he's been doing.

Do you agree/disagree with that?

In post 560, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:Obviously, LS, you are not included in my list of possible scum. -.- Does this really need to be stated?

Your original statement ("I'm sheeping TPR because she's the only one I'm certain is town") kind of implied that you forgot I was an IC or something.

That said, it'd be nice if you started sheeping me.

Who are you voting, LS?

(And I kinda did forget we had an IC because I'm stupid, but never had you in my list to begin with so I didn't think to sheep you. )

I'm voting Bulba.

Reasoning is scattered throughout my last few posts, but mainly it's because I think his sudden switch to Pitoli-town is contrived.

LS do you catch a lot of scum in your history as a townie?

In post 554, Lastsurvivor wrote:Yo TiP I see you been posting elsewhere on the site but not here where you at

(Reading the other things that I need to respond to now, but I wanted to post that before I forget)

Swear I posted recently here
what's up?
ETL why you sheeping TPR, the one we thought was caught scum like two days ago?

@ETL: In my recent history, I've caught a lot of scum initially but then they've managed to dissuade me from voting them.

Take that for what you will, haha.

pedit: TiP you posted here last Sunday I think

Sorry bout that

In post 563, Lastsurvivor wrote: > A lack of strong reaction to #438. If this was the post that really "changed it all," as you say, then why was his only response to it "fair enough"?

What's wrong with "fair enough"? It's an indication that what was said was enough to make me reevaluate or reconsider. What did you want? A huge paragraph talking about how that post of hers made me see the light? Out of the 2, which is more contrived?

In post 563, Lastsurvivor wrote: > #438 itself was a post where Pit spends a LOT of time defending Bulb. I think it's more likely that Bulb saw he could make an ally out of Pit vs an enemy and started subtly buddying her as he's been doing.

I could care less about her defense of me. That wasn't the important part of that post. Also, why would I care if Pitoli is my ally or enemy if I'm scum? She's not exactly the strongest player in the game. I don't see why you would think I would back off of her as scum and not push her, especially if she is really easy to push.

In post 462, Lastsurvivor wrote:I've learned to associate aggressiveness with town, and TPR seems to be playing more off of emotions than actual gameplay at this point. Her vote on ETL pinged town to me, if only because she's been townread by plenty of people so it'd be a dumb move by scum.

I can agree with this.

In post 462, Lastsurvivor wrote:Why CO?

PEDIT: You said he was better in 410, but I want to know why you thought it initially regardless.

Initially, I didn't like CO because his attacks were taking a few leaps in order to declare people scum. His case on pitoli, where one of the major selling points was that she was a godfather waiting to be investigated, required him to ignore the possibilities of pitoli being town who would rather be investigated than lynched or scum who didn't think they would be investigated to godfather, so that if pitoli was cleared by investigation, CO would still be able to push on her and call her scum. The second bit of reasoning was better, I think, but multiple people (Bulb primarily, if I'm remembering correctly) had already talked about it and already dealt with it, so essentially he was adding a small piece of reasoning onto a case that was already mostly formed.

His case on TPR in #383 essentially amounted to her questioning TiP of his doctor quote (shouldn't be significant because F-16 already had a similar question to TiP with regards to his vote on you), and not giving a formal TiP case when asked.

I did like his vote on pitoli in #407 quite a bit, though. It was defiant and ballsy in a way that seemed pretty distinctly townish to me.

In post 465, The Purple Rose wrote:I like this. I like this a lot. It's a classic GF tell, and I completely forgot about it. Even if pitoli isn't scum, I think the fact that chaos is thinking this way makes him town.

But you weren't thinking the same way initially?

In post 492, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:What do you think of the fact that both heads are reading Bulbazak and Chaos as scum and TIP as town?

This isn't actually true.

In post 547, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:LastSurvivor, Nacho (and ffery if you are willing to discuss) what do you think of this? I see his loss of a Pitoli scumread as completely effortless, he doesn't even mention it. Rather it is implied. His actions on both sides of the line make complete sense considering his Pitoli read. I am not sure if Binary vs Continuous thought processes are necessarily alignment indicative. Did you notice anything relevant to this while playing with Bulbazak before? Is it alignment indicative for him to switch reads gradually or in a binary fashion?

This is an awesome observation, though. My biggest problem with Bulbazak in the Newbie game with Yiley is that his reads switch seemed so binary and based on what felt like pretty much nothing, but I've certainly noticed here and elsewhere that the people he talks about are his scumreads and his townreads; there isn't really much room for middle ground. I'm not sure if this is something that's in his scumgame or not or how his binary reads get expressed when he's doing nothing but faking them, but I'm hoping ffery will look into this a bit and see if you cracked the Bulbazak code.

In post 552, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:I'm gonna sheep TPR today. She is the only one I'm certain could not be scum.

There are a few people that you could say that about, but TPR is an odd choice.

In post 560, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:You, sangres and F16 have cluttered up this day with back and forth walls that are distracting to say the least, and ultimately scummy. You have made it impossible to read the day with any ease, or to determine what's actually going on. There is such a thing as "too much content" and it's not fair to the rest of us for you to dominate the game this way. It's one thing to interrogate people who you are looking into, but it's entirely another to make it impossible to read anyone. Each of you bring up good and bad points. You each have some good logic and some faulty logic. None of it is alignment indicative. It is fucking useless and a waste of time.

In post 563, Lastsurvivor wrote:> A lack of strong reaction to #438. If this was the post that really "changed it all," as you say, then why was his only response to it "fair enough"?
> #438 itself was a post where Pit spends a LOT of time defending Bulb. I think it's more likely that Bulb saw he could make an ally out of Pit vs an enemy and started subtly buddying her as he's been doing.

These are two good points.

In post 570, Bulbazak wrote:What's wrong with "fair enough"? It's an indication that what was said was enough to make me reevaluate or reconsider. What did you want? A huge paragraph talking about how that post of hers made me see the light? Out of the 2, which is more contrived?

More something like "Mmmm, that was a really good post".

LastSurvivor, I'll think about Bulbazak but I am actually more interested in figuring out Sangres at this point. I'll get back to that after I check his other games.

I looked through the game and realized that the townread on Sangres I had wasn't as strong as before. There are certain things that make me lean town such as the investigation of Bulbazak and its follow-up which I think matches with what both heads would do as town. I'll try and read completed town and scum games of the Sangres hydra when I find time to do so.

ffery, here's what is bothering me about you. I'm trying to see you as town but there are too many unresolved problems for me to solidly read you as town:

Let's start with the last game we finished (HPCOS). I initially scumread you but backed off for a major portion of the next day keeping you as null (mostly focussing on Nacho). Much later, we went back and forth about Toomai's meta which we both read. I pointed out my disagreements to you, and finally pulled up one of his scumgames and said that his behavior in HPCOS made it obvious that he was town. I also said in the dead thread that your read being off at that point was what finally convinced me beyond a doubt that you were scum. So, you know that discussing reads with me will help me gain an insight into your affiliation. As such, I see plenty of scum motivation in NOT discussing reads and avoiding me. I don't see the town motivation in refusing to discuss reads because there is no reason for you to make it more difficult for me to read you. It makes far more sense to synch up, push scumreads, and get scum lynched. Normally, I see going back and forth with you on meta-reads (or even non-meta-reads) as a pretty good tool to sort you out. In this game, your refusal to discuss any means I am left analyzing whether this refusal is town-motivated or scum-motivated. This is how the day went down:

1) You start slow and keep a low profile. You explained this by saying that you didn't get into this game until later which is understandable. It is also something I scumread you for initially. I'll grant that you took your time to get into this game as town.

2) I scumread you and talk about the read with ETL. You push back.

3) I say that I am willing to put aside my initial scumread and work with you (hopefully to see if we can get into a similar discussion as HPCOS which will help me determine your affiliation and sort you out).

4) You say you are not ready yet to discuss reads but that Nacho is.

5) Nacho comes out with a lot of good posts and reads that at that time, I agree with. We come to an understanding.

6) I still have lingering doubts about you and I later express paranoia of Nacho.

7) You come out with your reads-list, and later say that you have me in your "maybe town, but not willing to work with pile." I ask why and you actually quote a post I made AFTER you said this and say that that is the reason which doesn't actually make any sense. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were just angry at being suspected.

8) I find a meta-tell that I realized that I could be mis-applying and back off and read you as town.

9) I make a large analysis post of Bulbazak's progression in his read on Pitoli. I am actually glad I made that analysis because I know I wasn't being conf-biased. I initially thought that it would prove him scum where as I came to the conclusion that he was town. I find that kind of analysis to be the best kind because I truly was working from a blank slate so I believe my read to be accurate. I asked for feedback (even specifically mentioning you because you were one of the people who had their votes on BBZack).

10) You keep your vote there, ask ETL and TRP a bunch of questions, don't even recognize that I made a huge analysis post and asked for your feedback. You almost act as if it wasn't even there.

Here are the issues that I want to see resolved: The recurring theme I see here is that each time I back off of suspecting you, and try to work together, you seem happy and move on. I never get the vibe that you actually want to sort things out or discuss reads in depth. I'd say that figuring out where reads overlap, where they don't and finding out why, is the most important thing since that's how we nail scum and lynch them.

, if you are there, can you explain what is happening and what is the town motivation behind any of these behaviors?

In post 571, sangres wrote:This is an awesome observation, though. My biggest problem with Bulbazak in the Newbie game with Yiley is that his reads switch seemed so binary and based on what felt like pretty much nothing, but I've certainly noticed here and elsewhere that the people he talks about are his scumreads and his townreads; there isn't really much room for middle ground. I'm not sure if this is something that's in his scumgame or not or how his binary reads get expressed when he's doing nothing but faking them, but I'm hoping ffery will look into this a bit and see if you cracked the Bulbazak code.

I am going to re-read N is for Newbie as well as go through another game where he was scum which I am hoping would finish. Cracking the code would be pretty cool actually.

I think Nacho is around. He made the last quotestripe post, so hopefully he'll chime in.

In post 572, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:LastSurvivor, I'll think about Bulbazak but I am actually more interested in figuring out Sangres at this point. I'll get back to that after I check his other games.

I looked through the game and realized that the townread on Sangres I had wasn't as strong as before. There are certain things that make me lean town such as the investigation of Bulbazak and its follow-up which I think matches with what both heads would do as town. I'll try and read completed town and scum games of the Sangres hydra when I find time to do so.

ffery, here's what is bothering me about you. I'm trying to see you as town but there are too many unresolved problems for me to solidly read you as town:

Let's start with the last game we finished (HPCOS). I initially scumread you but backed off for a major portion of the next day keeping you as null (mostly focussing on Nacho). Much later, we went back and forth about Toomai's meta which we both read. I pointed out my disagreements to you, and finally pulled up one of his scumgames and said that his behavior in HPCOS made it obvious that he was town. I also said in the dead thread that your read being off at that point was what finally convinced me beyond a doubt that you were scum. So, you know that discussing reads with me will help me gain an insight into your affiliation. As such, I see plenty of scum motivation in NOT discussing reads and avoiding me. I don't see the town motivation in refusing to discuss reads because there is no reason for you to make it more difficult for me to read you. It makes far more sense to synch up, push scumreads, and get scum lynched. Normally, I see going back and forth with you on meta-reads (or even non-meta-reads) as a pretty good tool to sort you out. In this game, your refusal to discuss any means I am left analyzing whether this refusal is town-motivated or scum-motivated. This is how the day went down:

Unlike most of my other hydra accounts, where I feel like a peer, I don't think I can play at the level Nacho plays. Not consistently, anyway. Every time we talk about reads during Sangres games, I wind up feeling like I have a very shallow viewpoint on players, especially during the first day or two of a game. Nacho finds town motivation in stuff, when all I'm seeing is scum sometimes.

1) You start slow and keep a low profile. You explained this by saying that you didn't get into this game until later which is understandable. It is also something I scumread you for initially. I'll grant that you took your time to get into this game as town.

I do sometimes take time to get into a game. It varies, even in my solo games. I feel kind of in limbo this game atm because I don't know to what extent I should plan on playing solo. And I don't want to play solo at all.

2) I scumread you and talk about the read with ETL. You push back.

3) I say that I am willing to put aside my initial scumread and work with you (hopefully to see if we can get into a similar discussion as HPCOS which will help me determine your affiliation and sort you out).

4) You say you are not ready yet to discuss reads but that Nacho is.

Yep. Based on his posts, I could tell Nacho had a direction, but I didn't know what direction, and I wasn't entirely comfortable with where our vote was. I wanted to sort that out before discussing consensus reads.

5) Nacho comes out with a lot of good posts and reads that at that time, I agree with. We come to an understanding.

6) I still have lingering doubts about you and I later express paranoia of Nacho.

7) You come out with your reads-list, and later say that you have me in your "maybe town, but not willing to work with pile." I ask why and you actually quote a post I made AFTER you said this and say that that is the reason which doesn't actually make any sense. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were just angry at being suspected.

I quoted that post rather than going back and grabbing a post from earlier in the game because I thought it was of the problem. Not because it was the only example.

8) I find a meta-tell that I realized that I could be mis-applying and back off and read you as town.

9) I make a large analysis post of Bulbazak's progression in his read on Pitoli. I am actually glad I made that analysis because I know I wasn't being conf-biased. I initially thought that it would prove him scum where as I came to the conclusion that he was town. I find that kind of analysis to be the best kind because I truly was working from a blank slate so I believe my read to be accurate. I asked for feedback (even specifically mentioning you because you were one of the people who had their votes on BBZack).

Back to being out of touch with my hydra partner. Although I liked your analysis, I didn't want to remove our vote without talking it over with Nacho and without looking at some other games Bulba and I have played where he was town. I decided to stew on your post for a while.

10) You keep your vote there, ask ETL and TRP a bunch of questions, don't even recognize that I made a huge analysis post and asked for your feedback. You almost act as if it wasn't even there.

I did recognize it. Playing solo I would have commented on it. Probably should have anyway. This game is reminding me (unpleasantly) of day 2 the Walking Dead game. In that game, I stayed in-thread, not answering questions and tried to stall things hoping that Nacho and I could talk through our reads before it ceased to matter as far as the game state (and our continued survival - the claimed vig said he was going to NK us) was concerned.

Here are the issues that I want to see resolved: The recurring theme I see here is that each time I back off of suspecting you, and try to work together, you seem happy and move on. I never get the vibe that you actually want to sort things out or discuss reads in depth. I'd say that figuring out where reads overlap, where they don't and finding out why, is the most important thing since that's how we nail scum and lynch them.

It's mostly been a timing thing. That, and my unwillingness to drive this hydra when I don't know what my partner is thinking. It will resolve, but probably not before I feel like nacho and I are in synch.