Mafiascum.net

↑ Kaboose wrote:I've wanted to vote Elle to L-1, and I still don't think it's a bad idea, but her reads were pretty close to mine scum wise. Only difference is I'm town reading LR. Elle clearly isn't right now. Which makes me concerned too that maybe my read is wrong. That coupled with the fact that her wagon has 2 of my other scum reads on it is keeping me from voting.

Luckily we still have 10 days I think to figure something out.

Whatisswag, what is your reason for wanting Awesome lynched? Green Crayons pointed out that you've only brought him up 1 time, and I'm about to go double check that. I'd still like to know if you have a new reason or not for that?

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

C.

elle:

I'll admit that I didn't personally have a put-into-words suspicion about elle when reading her posts; it was all a general feeling of "this doesn't sound right." (Contrast this with my suspicions about dave, where Grib and Kaboose simply vocalized my already-formed suspicions.) Of the players who vocalized particular suspicions about elle, I think that (1) Cheetory's "playing it safe" suspicion (originally stated in Post 246), and (2) Kaboose's problem with elle's inquiry to dave about elle's play (Post 323 and Post 339) are the most persuasive.

Regarding this second suspicion, I don't think this is an isolated incident. I noticed that she had previously asked Corpses about her play in a similar manner (Post 118 and Post 235). Well, maybe not a similar manner, but it certainly seems to come from the same mindset: "let me figure out what this player thinks about me and try to turn it to town."

↑ elleheathen wrote:

C.

I mean, I could have asked if you thought part

(1)

about 'playing it safe' actually still applied, but really it would just be WIFOM as Cheetory pointing it out could have made me switch tactic as

most

of my play that definitely was not 'safe' came after the fact.

And as for

(2)

, what's there to say? I address the point in 323 in my 332 and I address what I think of 339 in my 343. As for 118 and 235, I address them personally to you in 162 and 236, respectively.

The answers are already there and were already there prior to your post. To me, it's basically saying that despite the last fact, you're just not believing my explanations and you find me suspicious of it regardless.

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

A.

elle:

elle got real defensive, real quick - and used misrepresentation the process (see Post 370 and Post 375 w/r/t a misrep of Ranger's suspicions on Fairies; see Post 378 w/r/t a misrep of Ranger's vote count/deadline conversation). elle also immediate attacks her attacker on an unexceptional issue - town reads - in Post 371 and Post 374, which gets dragged out for several more posts.

↑ elleheathen wrote:

A.

I think the playout of elle vs ranger is already pretty clear in thread - I think it's also pretty clear that I don't think her not wanting to provide her townreads while saying she has them only to ultimately not have them is not an 'unexceptional issue'.

↑ Green Crayons wrote:3.

@Ranger:

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum.

He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads.

He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle?

Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

The bolded portions of your Kaboose suspicions describe your own play pretty spot on. Thoughts?

↑ Riddleton wrote:Why do I need to defend myself and argue her scumread on me? You're addressing me as if it's urgent I do so when I'm not a major wagon today.Focusing all of my time into defending people's scumreads of me is futile when actual scumhunting can be done. Like I said, no motive for me to defend someone's case on me. If you think that's a scum tactic for me to "avoid" that then go nuts and vote me.

↑ elleheathen wrote:

@ILF, davesaz and GC

, what's your read on Cheetory?

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

@Ranger:

I'm assuming you're reading my posts, so you could at least respond to them.

↑ Green Crayons wrote:3.

@Ranger:

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum.

He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads.

He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle?

Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

The bolded portions of your Kaboose suspicions describe your own play pretty spot on. Thoughts?

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:Sup. I am here to dramatically flop around as a replacement.

Whatisswag wrote:Taking middle ground gives null.

Whatisswag wrote:The way I scum hunt is relating the person I see to myself (another way of saying: I dont scum hunt by logic, I scum hunt by gut).

Something about the way that you're adding together what you see as scumtells and towntells to get nullreads while also saying that you scumhunt using gut feels off. I think it's that using generic towntells/scumtells and adding them together feels anything but gutbased. I might be getting caught up in semantics, so please try to elaborate on this so I can avoid being an idiot and getting caught up in a dumb argument about nothing here.

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

Grib wrote:I don't want to vote for any of them. The points raised against elle and Kaboose are meh.

What do you think of the points on whatisswag? I feel like you've danced around talking about him assuming I didn't just miss something in my readback.

@Green

, earlier on why were you voting Riddle over Grib, Corpses or elle? What were you hoping to get out of that single line of questioning that made him worth voting for? Also, what do you make of awesome's simultaneous townread/inability to read you and the players that are ramping up pressure on him for it?

Green Crayons wrote:So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Not really seeing why this is clearly scum-motivated and not just a bad play on Corpse's part.

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

Green Crayons wrote:I guess more importantly, why did Hannibal not get a criticism in any of your posts?

I like this line of questioning more than the role-trap angle people are pushing on Corpses. Why isn't this a part of your reasoning in your vote for Corpse, Crayon?

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

Kaboose wrote:Do you not think people should come under pressure for bad play? How do you expect the game to ever advance? Even if it is just bad play, it was a play that could hurt our most powerful win condition.

The point isn't whether bad play should be questioned. The point is that bad play=/=scummy play. I don't see why Corpse would rolefish in such an obvious way if his intent was solely to get masonslips. If anything, I would think that if he is scum, that he was merely trying to seem like he was acting protown trying to pitch ideas on what to be doing right now. Either way, no matter what his alignment is I still think it was just bad play on his part.

Good idea. Town idea.

I can follow the angle of trying to pressure Corpse into answering various questions on him, I can't follow the angle of lynching him solely on the merit of a sketchy accusation of him rolefishing that feels like a stretch.

Green Crayons wrote:My single question to him wasn't sustaining anything, as it was a bad question and I wasn't expecting anything from it.

Why not vote someone who you said was pinging you as slightly scummy?

Green Crayons wrote:I don't know if Corpses's mason talk is "clearly" scum motivated, but I think it's more likely to come from scum trying to get townie points when discussing game setup.

Makes more sense to me now that I've more fully absorbed your train of thought in #189. Though, why were you okay with sheeping Kaboose's reasoning before though if you later disagreed with it?

Grib wrote:Remind me what those points are?

I kind of got a little bit jumbled with the timeline of what was going on because I got a little too focused on Swag during my readthrough, so I guess a better question is why did you comment on elle/Kaboose and not on Riddleton who had three votes at the time in the quote I posted before?

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

@Grib

, when did you have a townread on Riddle and why?

Green Crayons wrote:Because I forgot I caught Corpse's failure to address Hannibal when I made my vote post.

Where does this reasoning rank in comparison to the rest of your reasons for voting for Corpse?

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

Cheetory6 wrote:

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

Don't you ignore me you jerk.

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

Green Crayon wrote:I don't know to who you are referring that was pinging me as slightly scummy?

Poorly phrased on my part. Why did you keep your vote on Riddle while saying you were slightly scumreading other people? Too lazy to pull up quotes right now but I know you said other scumreads in between your votechange.

davesaz wrote:even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not

I mean, you know the game you're playing right? Occasionally people are going to accuse you of lying because, dare I say, you may in fact be lying if you're mafia.
Also, try to keep things civil please. Not going to townread anger because I've seen plenty of people abuse that towntell as scum [myself included].

Good.

davesaz wrote:Scum also like to bring up negative association logic early to show town they're not connected to their partners.

Who do you think Swag would be trying to distance himself from in this case?

davesaz wrote: Have you caught up to the whole game? How did you choose the (roughly 6) people you've interacted with or focused on so far?

I kind of want to reread again because my brain went kind of numb trying to read a lot of the poem interactions around page 4-5 or something, but I otherwise feel relatively comfortable saying I'm caught up. I chose recent interactions because I felt those people would be most likely to be here and I wanted direct interactions to try and sort people and I chose things that stood out to me as weird.

@Swag

, what separates SJAC and davesaz in terms of content posted thus far? Also, what're your thoughts on elle?

VOTE: elle
Her vote in #163 feels reactionary and the followup ten minutes later strikes me as trying to throw additional reasoning to seem proactive. Also feel like she's saying a decent amount without leaving much of an impression. Stances seem pretty safe overall. Have some other weak reasons for suspecting her, but don't really know if they make sense and want to mull them over atm.

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

Elle wrote:

Cheetory6 wrote:What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:As for my read on Kaboose, I'm leaning town on him at the moment because he seems to have this.. aura of confidence about pushing people and isn't really afraid at all to defend it. Could be reading too much into what may be playstyle, but he also doesn't strike me as scummy as a whole and hasn't said anything that I've found particularly suspect.

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

↑ Riddleton wrote:

Cheetory

, I meta'd Swag myself and I disagree with your conclusions on his playstyle. I'll post more later on, I'm eating now

O riddle why do you hide from me so?

Riddleton wrote:Who's alt are you, Lone Ranger?

Why doth thou ask questions to which LR will likely not answer?

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:
LR's switch to Kaboose is.. interesting. I want to think that it's too bold for her to possibly be jumping around like this as scum unless she's trying to do something very intentionally. It would be a lot easier to sit on her elle vote and push the wagon as scum, so unless she's scummates with someone involved here, I want to say she's probably town? I kind of think her weirdness is probably town weirdness anyways.

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:Boop.

Leantown

:
Grib
Lone Ranger
Kaboose
Swag

Null

:
Green Crayons
ILF
NJAC
Dave
Riddle

Leanscum

:
Corpses
awesome
elle

Bitchassbitch

:
Cheetory6

It's in order too.

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

elle wrote:Another one that gives me odd feels is his 502, where he mentions Riddle's absence in a positive light, corpses absence in a negative light, and then doesn't at all mention davesaz's absence. But I can't really pinpoint exactly what bothers me about it, just that it feels like selectively calling people out differently for doing the same thing, if that makes sense.

Corpse left in the middle of being the main wagon and it annoyed me that he didn't replace because it could have stalled the game really hard. If he's town, that was a shitty thing to do. If he's scum, then that's an annoying derail.
I've played with Riddle before and I have no idea where he stands on things right now. I consider myself closer to him than I do to dave or Math/whoever his other head is.
Have never played with dave before and I relatively know where he stands right now.
Hence differences in how I'm responding to each of them not being here.

elle wrote:Your GC read feels similarly to my Cheetory read, insofar as it's hard to point out specifics. With a lot of the things he posts, I get the feeling that they're just set up as traps - like his 399 to you or the way he phrases his 518 to me.

I used to just hardpush people when I wanted reads. I'm relatively new to mafiascum and have only recently gotten into the idea of sorting people. If my questioning is forceful, it's because I'm leaning scum on someone. Was leaning scum on LR when I started questioning her. I strongly think you're scum right now and I don't see why you would be coming from where you are right now from a townPOV. I'd love to hear why I'm wrong on this, but nothing you've hinted at so far in your last few responses to me feels like it's coming from anywhere legitimate.

Are you going to actually question me now or are you just going to pitch something else to everyone else in the game again?

↑ Green Crayons wrote:There's a difference between tunneling and an informed perspective, yes.

Citing that fact as a truism doesn't really address the situation here. Particularly when people have criticized your tunnel of elle as a potential manifestation of your informed perspective. (There's no one, true Scotsman of how an informed perspective plays out.)

You've set up both awesome ("AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there." in Post 419) and Kaboose ("A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle." Post 472) as being potential elle-scum buddies.


Thanks for your response.

↑ Grib wrote:elle, instead of narrowing your lynchpool for silly reasons, why don't you vote and scumhunt?

Tell me whom you'd like dead and why.

↑ davesaz wrote:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ elleheathen wrote:
Maybe he's reading me from my posting to others but again,

ughhh

.

The majority of why he's leaning scum there is because of what I see as him not even

trying

to read me. So, '

If you're town

, you should at least

try

to read me better' because if he's not, I can see why he's not trying to read me at all.

The inside quote was somewhat on target. I do read people by their interactions with others, more than by interacting with them myself. My RL personality is like that too. In technical/leadership situations I drive things in the direction I want them to go in, but in social situations I tend to listen 3-4x as much as I talk. Consequently, at times it's a real challenge to meet the minimum posting level for games.

I'm often told that this kind of revelation is not terribly useful here because it's self meta.

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

@elle:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Less suspicious, no.

Cleared of the association

, yes.

↑ Whatisswag wrote:Town reads list. And I notice GC has been focusing a lot on elle recently.

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

In case you missed this:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

@elle:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Less suspicious, no.

Cleared of the association

, yes.

Bolded.

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

In case you missed this:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

@elle:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Less suspicious, no.

Cleared of the association

, yes.

Bolded.

That's nice.

It doesn't answer my question.

Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

↑ Whatisswag wrote:

↑ Green Crayons wrote:There's a difference between tunneling and an informed perspective, yes.

Citing that fact as a truism doesn't really address the situation here. Particularly when people have criticized your tunnel of elle as a potential manifestation of your informed perspective. (There's no one, true Scotsman of how an informed perspective plays out.)

You've set up both awesome ("AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there." in Post 419) and Kaboose ("A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle." Post 472) as being potential elle-scum buddies.


Thanks for your response.

Yeah. Good job noticing. Ok LR just got boosted a few levels above other people on my reads list.

↑ elleheathen wrote:The people being associated with me as scum will be cleared of that association when I flip town.

How? Well... when you use associative tells to try to connect people together as scum pre-flips, it kind of throws it out the window when one of those people flips town.