In post 540, Transcend wrote:podo- I wanna lynch Smith I really do but I'm just having massive doubts mainly due to his AtE. Sans that AtE he hasn't done one towny thing all game. Help me solidify my SR on him.
Sorry, took a long nap.
I didn't want to make some big case on Smith, because I didn't want to "push too hard," whatever the fuck that means.
The two of us agree that before the self-vote, Smith is scummy enough to lynch, right? You organized making that the wagon of the day, so I'm just going to assume we were on the same page there. We've already made cases on that part of the game. Now let's look at what's happened over the last 24 hours.
Spoiler: lots of quotes, hiding behind spoilers, because I don't want to be annoying
In post 441, Smithereens wrote:If you had a case against me then it's crap and it's wrong. You can take this incident as a learning opportunity, your reads are no more accurate than a random guess.
Doesn't feel the responsibility of responding to a case, because doing so would distract from the current gambit. Smith hasn't said anything about his early game play since he self-voted, because it might convince someone to hammer.
In post 441, Smithereens wrote:I'll explain how encouraging my own death works in end game. Suffice to say that one of the reasons is to double the credit of my reads without having to deal with annoying people who can't read me correctly, like yourself. I can't be bothered acting town in order to get my reads across, and I'm in too many games anyhow, so the best course of action is to simply lynch me and then credit my reads as being from a genuine confirmed town.
Anyone who's been lynched early knows that town basically ignores you for the rest of the game if you flipped town with no actual information. Why? Because your reads are no better than theirs. If Smith, as town, is actually lynching himself in order for town to trust his reads, he's an idiot. If you wanted people to believe your reads, you'd have participated in the game when you were alive.
In post 441, Smithereens wrote:I can't be bothered acting town in order to get my reads across, and I'm in too many games anyhow, so the best course of action is to simply lynch me and then credit my reads as being from a genuine confirmed town.
Read that again. If that's true, and he's town, he's the best mislynch a town could ever ask for. He's just antitown. A good protown player would just replace out.
I've already pointed this out, but Maru is a counter wagon. There have been no posts to imply that Maru is Smith's highest scumread, and before this whole fiasco, Smith thought Maru was incredibly towny. If that opinion actually changed, it's because Maru suggested a policy lynch in response to incredibly anti-town play, which is a pretty fucking reasonable response from Maru if you ask me. Instead, his reads are irrelevant. He's deflecting onto the highest wagon because it's easy.
In post 472, Smithereens wrote:Alright, go hammer, but kill Transcend first for my enjoyment. And then Maru :3
Again. The only people Smith is going after are people on his wagon, ensuring that he doesn't anger anyone into hammering it.
In post 488, Smithereens wrote:That's the beauty of this situation lol. You suck so hard you completely screwed up your town facade in order to ensure that I get lynched :3
I thought you were town too. Lol guess I was wrong, but that's all good, because this situation has pretty much unmasked the entire scum team and it's only D1.
I doubt any towny with any experience is stupid enough to believe this.
In post 492, podoboq wrote:Smithereens has called almost half of the players in the game scum. Just gonna point that out.
Dismiss the scum reads that occurred before this incident, this has been amazingly informative.
To put it in a nutshell, players who voted smithers or suspected me for the inconsistencies I dropped against Shotty are town, those who voted me and later scum read me are scum.
So that's yourself, Trans and maru.
"People who voted me for a poor reason are probably town, but people who see that my continued play has been legit scummy must be scum. We solved the riddle, kids."
In post 508, Smithereens wrote:Also Trans let me spell it out to you: I am getting lynched at my request, and two players have expressed fears that I'm planning on moving the wagon off me. Guess who those two players are? The same two who created scum reads after putting their votes against me. Hehe, it's all too easy.
Also Penguin, Hammer before some idiot unvotes.
Smithereens is not getting lynched at his request. He was getting lynched at OUR request, and stopped the wagon by running this self-voting gambit. I don't know who these two players are that he's talking about are, because I think it's you and I, but we also both had justified our scumreads before the wagon ever started, so this is gibberish.
In post 511, Smithereens wrote:@Trans, That's what I mean when I say that the town players on my wagon didn't do that.
Just yourself and Podo, and then Maru outed himself as scum. What a fucking game.
Ah so that is the list. Also, Maru never outed anything. Most of the time, when people shout scumslip, they're just being stupid. This is one of those times.
Now let me explain WHY Smithereens self voted. Without some kind of action from him, we were just going to lynch him. Pretty simple, really. A townie would spell out their reads, and just let it happen if they thought it was inevitable, or try to redirect using honest methods, like attacking your case. That's obviously not what Smithereens did. Now he can argue that it was done as some kind of reaction test, but it was never presented that way in the beginning. It was "X, Y, and Z are scum, lynch them after you mislynch me." Then that message changed as people responded, and it didn't pick up another vote. So if town selfvotes there, they're just playing excessively poorly, and I try to assume people won't do that, especially when there's a clear scum-motivated reason that could explain the bad gameplay.
As scum, Smith self voted to scare us
into
doubting ourselves. It's incredibly different from how he's played the rest of the day, and his post count since has basically doubled as he tried to make sure the emotion stuck. He knew logic wasn't going to save him, which is why he hasn't presented ANY logic as to how he IS town, or how your case (which he claims to have refused to read) is wrong. It is an AtE, but it's not a reason to townread him. This is a scum tactic, and if people who self-vote are automatically townread for doing so, then scum just fucking self-vote. Hell, if people who self-vote are automatically townread for doing so, anyone under suspicion can just pull that tactic out of their pocket. All of Smithereens's play has been scummy, the vote included, and everything afterward.
Look back, Smithereens was never in any real danger of being hammered. He keeps shouting to Penguin to do the hammer, but Penguin was clearly never into it (if Smith flips scum, I'm calling scum buddies on this one.) When Maru jumps in, Smith immediately deflects, and it works. At this point, I honestly don't even think it's going to happen. If there are any scum on the wagon, they can just unvote when it starts to look dire, and that way Smith can hold up the facade. In fact, you unvoted. Now it's possible that that's town motivated, and I believe it is, but I was looking for scum to ditch, you ditched. So get back on the wagon, get back to voting for scum, and worst case scenario, let's see who jumps off. I'll bet you just about anything, the next vote off Smithereens is scum. I didn't want to make this wall, because I know they'll find a tiny nugget in here, and use it as an excuse to unvote.
Oh, by the way, I was looking to moderate my first game here in the next few months when all of my current games end.. I'm totally adding to the rules that players can not vote for themselves. It's inherently anti-town, and shouldn't be a fucking gambit you can pull.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:22 am
by drmyshottyizsik
podo people will have major issue with that, and isn't something you should do unless it is a theme game, but this isn't the place to discuss that.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:31 am
by podoboq
In post 552, drmyshottyizsik wrote:podo people will have major issue with that, and isn't something you should do unless it is a theme game, but this isn't the place to discuss that.
I'm gonna respond and make my case, because it relates to this game.
Self voting should not be a thing you can do. It just shouldn't. Voting for yourself as town is NEVER correct. It is, by the definition of the game and your win con, playing against your own win con. By it's very nature, self-voting is inherently scummy, and anyone who does at as town because they're bored, and don't want to play any more, should just do the pro-town thing, and replace out. The only GOOD reason to self-vote is to AtE, which is scummy to do, so it should be read as a scum-claim.
It's a garbage-person thing to do, it's 100% wifom, and it doesn't add anything positive to the game. I moderate the game all the time IRL, and I've never allowed for self-votes because they're dumb.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:11 pm
by Ranger
Mod: V/LA for today, and all Wednesdays in July.
Means no posting from me until tomorrow.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:06 pm
by SirCakez
In post 427, MURDERCAT wrote:Because I think I'm obv town, duh. DixC was also on me, I just missed a name.
Actually though, the fact that none of my strong town reads are on me makes me suspicious of my wagon.
In post 443, Maruchan wrote:willing to policy lynch smithereens at this point. any town who is willing to self vote at any point in the game is inherently playing against his win condition, and therefor not following the spirrt of the game minimum, rules depending on the mod. No town member should ever actively play against their win condition and lynch someone they have undeniable mod proof of the alignment
If you ever self vote as town, know you just stopped playing mafia to win.
this post rots though. A PL at this point would be stupid and antitown.
In post 492, podoboq wrote:Smithereens has called almost half of the players in the game scum. Just gonna point that out.
^ is also a good point
Transcend's posting from 18-20 is really really bad though, he drops out of my town pool for that.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:08 pm
by SirCakez
In post 505, PenguinPower wrote:Jesus, can we stop with the all caps? I'm tempted to hammer Smithereens just to stop this nonsense between you two.
i actually don't think i'm ready for his flip before maruchan comes back and says some things.
this also could be scumposting but not as bad
Add Shotty to my town pool, Transcend to my scum pool
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:17 pm
by DixC
In post 545, MURDERCAT wrote:I have the biggest gut scum read on DixC and I can't shake it.
I get the same vibe off of you: I've concluded that I just don't like the way you've been playing, so I moved off of you until I can distinguish scummy from irritating.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:12 pm
by podoboq
In post 555, SirCakez wrote:Transcend's posting from 18-20 is really really bad though, he drops out of my town pool for that.
I think I made a decent case for how Transcend might be scum on the Smith wagon, abandoning in order to kill the wagon. I think he's just town who's doubting himself, but it's possible that this is a plan communicated between the two over day chat. If Smith flips town, that logic is obviously no longer valid.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:15 pm
by podoboq
I'd like to point out, by the way, that the counterwagon is on a player who has admitted to being constantly V/LA because of deployment.
Consider for a moment, that scum sees that as an easy distraction and an easy mislynch because he comes into the thread so rarely.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:59 pm
by MURDERCAT
In post 558, podoboq wrote:it's possible that this is a plan communicated between the two over day chat.
Do we know this setup has or does not have day chat? I looked but didn't see. Is this a slip?
In post 558, podoboq wrote:it's possible that this is a plan communicated between the two over day chat.
Do we know this setup has or does not have day chat? I looked but didn't see. Is this a slip?
It's a guess. The way he unvoted the wagon looks like potential daychatting scum to me. If it's scummy, it's too coordinated to be otherwise. I've yet to play a game here without day chat, but as I've learned in another game recently, I think mods are supposed to make that public knowledge.
In post 558, podoboq wrote:it's possible that this is a plan communicated between the two over day chat.
Do we know this setup has or does not have day chat? I looked but didn't see. Is this a slip?
It's a guess. The way he unvoted the wagon looks like potential daychatting scum to me. If it's scummy, it's too coordinated to be otherwise. I've yet to play a game here without day chat, but as I've learned in another game recently, I think mods are supposed to make that public knowledge.
@davesas: Does mafia have daychat in this game?
Scum only have night talk; it's in the sample Role-PMs:
, along with your partners, [Player Name] and [Player Name].
Abilities:
Factional communication: During the
night phase
you may talk with your partner here [QuickTopic link].
Factional kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partner may perform the factional kill.
Setup Information: You know that there are exactly X number of Docs in the game and Y number of Cops.
Win condition:
You win when all members of the town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:32 pm
by MURDERCAT
damn
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:36 pm
by podoboq
In post 562, Chip Butty wrote:Scum only have night talk; it's in the sample Role-PMs:
In that case, I doubt Transcend's unvote was scummy. That would require a level of coordination that the scum team doesn't have, or just execssively good play.
Smithereens, how long are you going to keep this up? You seem to think you know who the scum are, but instead of voting them you are voting yourself.
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:14 am
by Smithereens
If I die Podo is conf scum from post 551. Heck if I turn my nose up on that opportunity. From my PoV I can see who the scum are since I know that a townie shouldn't be driven to lynch me for baseless assertion. There are exactly three players who have done this:
>Trans, who you saw
>Maru, who slipped
>Podo, who is over-reaching to keep a scum read against me alive.
Literally no other players have attempted what they have. However I also know that town is going to be utterly disappointing and not trust my PoV that I'm town ergo a lynch on Smithers confirms that he knew those three players on his wagon were not town. That or else one of these three are going to convince you that I'm lying and lead a mislynch against a complete random. It's not hard to see why a lynch here would concrete the fact that my PoV is a town PoV.
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:19 am
by karnos
Even if you are town, and your flip verifies this, you are not infallible.
