Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:29 am
Page 23 of 38
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:37 am
I am insanely skeptical of this setup being breakable, but I am still listening, lol.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:40 am
Yes, I can act N1
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:09 am
Okay, that's what I needed to hear.
CLAIM: I am a Novice Vigilante.
Aside from the novice, I am ungated.
Clark should target me N1.
From there, we can discuss strategy, but the basic rule for D2 should be that we clearly and unambiguously select my target, and have Clark not jailkeep them.
We can discuss the specifics later, but Clark is always town, here.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:11 am
In post 550, Childs~ wrote:MOD PETAPAN: If a Thing assimilated a power role, would they be able to use it?
No. Roles do not transfer on assimilation.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:18 am
And to be clear--absolutely no WIFOMing the N1 target.In post 553, Childs~ wrote:Okay, that's what I needed to hear.
CLAIM: I am a Novice Vigilante.
Aside from the novice, I am ungated.
Clark should target me N1.
From there, we can discuss strategy, but the basic rule for D2 should be that we clearly and unambiguously select my target, and have Clark not jailkeep them.
We can discuss the specifics later, but Clark is always town, here.
No saying that you will protect me, then trying a hero-jailkeep out of greed, in the hopes that scum don't shoot me.
Me, and always me, N1, because with this, the scum might just be desperate enough to try and kill me in spite of the Jailkeeper, in the hopes of the Jailkeeper going elsewhere. They genuinely might have no choice.
So, Clark is just town, here.
Even in the unlikely scenario where he just so HAPPENED to claim the perfect fakeclaim, he can't shoot me N1 without getting himself eliminated.
Well, he could try, and then either assimilate me or claim he lost a WIFOM battle, but as long as you can tell that I haven't been replaced (should be easy enough
), that closes one door and this post stating no WIFOMimg the protection should close the other door, too.Basically there’s no world where scum should come out ahead here, town should always come out on top.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:25 am
So, uh...In post 542, Clark~ wrote:Fuchs - already talked about
those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three
Did you forget what read you had on me lmao
In post 464, Clark~ wrote:Decided to ISO Fuchs
I think this is more likely to come from town than scum:A lot of Fuchs' points are very nuanced which looks to me like trying to solve by thinking deeply about motives rather than the actual actions themselves. Which is what town would want to do instead of scum looking for something bad to jump onto.In post 148, Fuchs~ wrote:Norris, why does you deciding that I am town mean that I get to decide your vote?
To reiterate Fuchs, I don't understand the "why could scum not pretend to be tunnelled" argument. You could say that about literally anything.
Nauls's arguments with Fuchs look like Nauls is actively searching for things to argue about and ways to make Fuchs look bad rather than reading something and thinking it's bad. Then when the clash didn't go anywhere he just dropped it in 433.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:25 am
I don't see how you being a novice vig proves that Clark is town or will enable us to 'test' her overnight.
If Day2 you announce your target and Clark allegedly doesn't jailkeeps them - to the outside observer there's no difference between Clarke jailkeeping anyone else and not being able to jailkeep at all (i.e. because they made up the role)
Also tonight, if scum just try to kill anybody else, we didn't 'prove' Clarke's ability either
I also think a jailkeeper is a scummier claim in light of there allegedly being a vig
If Day2 you announce your target and Clark allegedly doesn't jailkeeps them - to the outside observer there's no difference between Clarke jailkeeping anyone else and not being able to jailkeep at all (i.e. because they made up the role)
Also tonight, if scum just try to kill anybody else, we didn't 'prove' Clarke's ability either
I also think a jailkeeper is a scummier claim in light of there allegedly being a vig
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:26 am
I'm at a loss how we're going from your role to 'completely confirming Clark's alignment' hereIn post 546, Childs~ wrote:I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:27 am
I strongly think your slot is scum, yes. I see no reason to drop the pushIn post 542, Clark~ wrote:Mac - The vast majority of posts have been about my slot and pushing it as scum. There are a few other reads here and there but honestly not a lot. 311 is like the only post that actually tries to look at analysing someone then it's straight back to pushing me. I think Mac's play has been very safe so far which comes from the set-up. I don't think this sort of play would hold up in a normal game later than day 2 at which point it would be picked at for not being solving. But picking an easy to push slot and just keeping on the pressure day one then assimilating away when it flips town.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:40 am
Uh. Even going by that plan, it doesn't even prove that Clark is town, it just guarantees that Childs doesn't die N1. And even that isn't good enough, because if Clark IS scum, she just jumps out of her own slot anyway.
Which also, why in the hell would you claim that openly.
Yeah, I hate this.
Which also, why in the hell would you claim that openly.
Yeah, I hate this.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:47 am
Novice Jailkeeper does not test the claim lmao.
Also, the reason why I thought we would not have a vigilante is that because in this set up, I think that it would actually be a negative utility role, and if childs is actually a vig (I have my doubts, and my gut reaction was that it was a play to save clark, but also gonna give it some time to think about that too), but if they actually are a vig, I think that they should probably never fire.
Furthermore, moment they fire the first time we lose track of the number of scum that exist in the game. We will go from there are exactly X scum, to an unknown number. Making us no longer be able to track things like how close to ELO we are.
Next it will make it harder to hunt for assimilation. If the vig fires and dies in the same night we will no longer be looking to see if exactly "the player who died last night"'s posting mannerisms or like childs mentioned, posting times, have started popping up somewhere else because there would be a second choice of who may have body swapped during the night. [This point was originally thought about before when I was thinking about if this set up made sense to have a vigilante in at all, and I am aware that since there is an open vig claim, this can be worked around by having childs announce their intended during the day, but when I was thinking in the general sense it did not seem likely that even if there was a vig, that it would be claimed before it could fire, and therefore it would be confusion on the following day]
Also, the reason why I thought we would not have a vigilante is that because in this set up, I think that it would actually be a negative utility role, and if childs is actually a vig (I have my doubts, and my gut reaction was that it was a play to save clark, but also gonna give it some time to think about that too), but if they actually are a vig, I think that they should probably never fire.
We wont know if it killed town or scum. This is a denial of information for partner associations. So long as scum were only killable during the day, then we would have always been informed when we successfully killed scum, but with a vig we would not.
Furthermore, moment they fire the first time we lose track of the number of scum that exist in the game. We will go from there are exactly X scum, to an unknown number. Making us no longer be able to track things like how close to ELO we are.
Next it will make it harder to hunt for assimilation. If the vig fires and dies in the same night we will no longer be looking to see if exactly "the player who died last night"'s posting mannerisms or like childs mentioned, posting times, have started popping up somewhere else because there would be a second choice of who may have body swapped during the night. [This point was originally thought about before when I was thinking about if this set up made sense to have a vigilante in at all, and I am aware that since there is an open vig claim, this can be worked around by having childs announce their intended during the day, but when I was thinking in the general sense it did not seem likely that even if there was a vig, that it would be claimed before it could fire, and therefore it would be confusion on the following day]
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:48 am
Novice Vigilante
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:53 am
yeah pretty much my line of thinkingIn post 527, Fuchs~ wrote:Not sure that it makes Childs scum, because that seems like a thought that they would post in the scum chat instead of the main thread if they were scum, but it was also probably anti-town to say it.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:55 am
^In post 558, MacReady~ wrote:I'm at a loss how we're going from your role to 'completely confirming Clark's alignment' hereIn post 546, Childs~ wrote:I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:57 am
This was not typed out clearly, because my thoughts about it actually changed some while I typed it.In post 561, Fuchs~ wrote:Next it will make it harder to hunt for assimilation. If the vig fires and dies in the same night we will no longer be looking to see if exactly "the player who died last night"'s posting mannerisms or like childs mentioned, posting times, have started popping up somewhere else because there would be a second choice of who may have body swapped during the night. [This point was originally thought about before when I was thinking about if this set up made sense to have a vigilante in at all, and I am aware that since there is an open vig claim, this can be worked around by having childs announce their intended during the day, but when I was thinking in the general sense it did not seem likely that even if there was a vig, that it would be claimed before it could fire, and therefore it would be confusion on the following day]
This is largely a non-issue entirely with an outed vig claim vs an unclaimed vig where there were various issues that could arise [like them being killed or the scum target being protected, ect] All of which would compound the info issue.
But with it claimed, all of that kind of washes away. But it was part of my "why I don't think that there is a vig in this game" thoughts, but mid typing it I started thinking about the claim being out there in advance
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:59 am
see i still don't get thisIn post 533, Copper~ wrote:The difference is that he actively seems to be out to annoy people, rather than floundering like LHF.In post 519, Bennings~ wrote:sure, there is a difference, but you haven't done anything to explain what the difference is, hence why your voting seems kinda fabricated/opportunisticIn post 397, Copper~ wrote:Doesn't seem like genuine LHF town and more like scum trolling to look like LHF. Subtle difference.In post 343, Bennings~ wrote:Yeah I'm getting LHF vibesIn post 248, Nauls~ wrote:Honestly I’m not the biggest fan of the votes that have piled onto Norris, but Norris also hasn’t given me any reason to feel any better about them than before.
just saying "this trolling seems scummy" and then voting him doesn't really seem like you're trying to figure out alignment, you're just finding a reason
scum aren't trying to "annoy" people they're trying to get townread OR in this game specifically cause chaos and then assimilate
norris behaving that way just puts a target on him for elim D1. doesn't make sense to me from a scum pov
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:04 am
<_<In post 556, Fuchs~ wrote:So, uh...In post 542, Clark~ wrote:Fuchs - already talked about
those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three
Did you forget what read you had on me lmao
In post 464, Clark~ wrote:Decided to ISO Fuchs
I think this is more likely to come from town than scum:A lot of Fuchs' points are very nuanced which looks to me like trying to solve by thinking deeply about motives rather than the actual actions themselves. Which is what town would want to do instead of scum looking for something bad to jump onto.In post 148, Fuchs~ wrote:Norris, why does you deciding that I am town mean that I get to decide your vote?
To reiterate Fuchs, I don't understand the "why could scum not pretend to be tunnelled" argument. You could say that about literally anything.
Nauls's arguments with Fuchs look like Nauls is actively searching for things to argue about and ways to make Fuchs look bad rather than reading something and thinking it's bad. Then when the clash didn't go anywhere he just dropped it in 433.
>_>
lmao
VOTE: Clark
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:15 am
Just put a few more words to this: mentioned before that I did not expect a vig in this set up given the no night flips rule, but I also saw the benefits of a scum/scum pair doing this in this way.In post 561, Fuchs~ wrote:(I have my doubts, and my gut reaction was that it was a play to save clark, but also gonna give it some time to think about that too)
Like, tomorrow they announce that they are going to target the same person to test if he is a jailkeeper (only way I can even think to set up a test with a vig tbh) and if that person does not die, then clark is confirmed town. And then just... don't kill that person. False clear on Clark. This would require Childs to body swap eventually though, because they can never actually result in 2 kills in a night and having claimed vig, but also with their claim, their slot being night killed would have been expected - giving them some cover for the swap.
And if things start falling apart for them, they could also still swap away from either or both of these slots.
----
I am not super sure I believe that scum would even try this, because it would lock childs into a forced body swap at some point, but that was my gut reaction as a combination of not expecting a vig + thinking that clark is scum + seeing a this path.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:15 am
In post 244, Clark~ wrote:You, Blair, Garry are town in my mind, Child is probs town too. Not got a read on Lars yet.In post 243, MacReady~ wrote:Well more - do you have any reads on anyone who joined the wagon?In post 239, Clark~ wrote:Not much, I almost always get early wagoned day 1 so it's surprisingly business as usual for replacing into a slot
flip flopped on mac as wellIn post 542, Clark~ wrote:Mac - The vast majority of posts have been about my slot and pushing it as scum. There are a few other reads here and there but honestly not a lot. 311 is like the only post that actually tries to look at analysing someone then it's straight back to pushing me. I think Mac's play has been very safe so far which comes from the set-up. I don't think this sort of play would hold up in a normal game later than day 2 at which point it would be picked at for not being solving. But picking an easy to push slot and just keeping on the pressure day one then assimilating away when it flips town.
Copper - Copper just hasn't really said much all game (not that I'm one to talk to be fair). Some tonal/gut reads at the beginning of the game which is all well and good but they haven't developed into anything. The there was the pointless discussion about fake tunnelling as scum and then pushing the troll slot which I think is town
Spoiler:
Fuchs - already talked about
those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three
My strongest townread is still Garry, then probably Childs.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:19 am
That like, isn't an answer to half of my point on youIn post 559, MacReady~ wrote:I strongly think your slot is scum, yes. I see no reason to drop the pushIn post 542, Clark~ wrote:Mac - The vast majority of posts have been about my slot and pushing it as scum. There are a few other reads here and there but honestly not a lot. 311 is like the only post that actually tries to look at analysing someone then it's straight back to pushing me. I think Mac's play has been very safe so far which comes from the set-up. I don't think this sort of play would hold up in a normal game later than day 2 at which point it would be picked at for not being solving. But picking an easy to push slot and just keeping on the pressure day one then assimilating away when it flips town.
Nauls not Fuchs. Everyone looks the same this game.In post 556, Fuchs~ wrote:So, uh...In post 542, Clark~ wrote:Fuchs - already talked about
those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three
Did you forget what read you had on me lmao
In post 464, Clark~ wrote:Decided to ISO Fuchs
I think this is more likely to come from town than scum:A lot of Fuchs' points are very nuanced which looks to me like trying to solve by thinking deeply about motives rather than the actual actions themselves. Which is what town would want to do instead of scum looking for something bad to jump onto.In post 148, Fuchs~ wrote:Norris, why does you deciding that I am town mean that I get to decide your vote?
To reiterate Fuchs, I don't understand the "why could scum not pretend to be tunnelled" argument. You could say that about literally anything.
Nauls's arguments with Fuchs look like Nauls is actively searching for things to argue about and ways to make Fuchs look bad rather than reading something and thinking it's bad. Then when the clash didn't go anywhere he just dropped it in 433.
my read changed in 10 pages? wow, shockerIn post 569, Bennings~ wrote:In post 244, Clark~ wrote:You, Blair, Garry are town in my mind, Child is probs town too. Not got a read on Lars yet.In post 243, MacReady~ wrote:Well more - do you have any reads on anyone who joined the wagon?In post 239, Clark~ wrote:Not much, I almost always get early wagoned day 1 so it's surprisingly business as usual for replacing into a slotflip flopped on mac as wellIn post 542, Clark~ wrote:Mac - The vast majority of posts have been about my slot and pushing it as scum. There are a few other reads here and there but honestly not a lot. 311 is like the only post that actually tries to look at analysing someone then it's straight back to pushing me. I think Mac's play has been very safe so far which comes from the set-up. I don't think this sort of play would hold up in a normal game later than day 2 at which point it would be picked at for not being solving. But picking an easy to push slot and just keeping on the pressure day one then assimilating away when it flips town.
Copper - Copper just hasn't really said much all game (not that I'm one to talk to be fair). Some tonal/gut reads at the beginning of the game which is all well and good but they haven't developed into anything. The there was the pointless discussion about fake tunnelling as scum and then pushing the troll slot which I think is town
Spoiler:
Fuchs - already talked about
those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three
My strongest townread is still Garry, then probably Childs.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:21 am
Yeah, nauls is also not mentioned in their new post which seems odd given the thought he put into the slot for their interactions with me in 464.In post 567, Bennings~ wrote:<_<In post 556, Fuchs~ wrote:So, uh...In post 542, Clark~ wrote:Fuchs - already talked about
those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three
Did you forget what read you had on me lmao
In post 464, Clark~ wrote:Decided to ISO Fuchs
I think this is more likely to come from town than scum:A lot of Fuchs' points are very nuanced which looks to me like trying to solve by thinking deeply about motives rather than the actual actions themselves. Which is what town would want to do instead of scum looking for something bad to jump onto.In post 148, Fuchs~ wrote:Norris, why does you deciding that I am town mean that I get to decide your vote?
To reiterate Fuchs, I don't understand the "why could scum not pretend to be tunnelled" argument. You could say that about literally anything.
Nauls's arguments with Fuchs look like Nauls is actively searching for things to argue about and ways to make Fuchs look bad rather than reading something and thinking it's bad. Then when the clash didn't go anywhere he just dropped it in 433.
>_>
lmao
VOTE: Clark
I am just mulling over whether I think that childs is town, trying to focus on how to deal with a situation using exactly their PR, or if they are scum trying to save clark.
I actually thought of a better different way that childs could have been trying to confirm clark then having them both target the same person, and it is actually possibly pretty good. And I might even go for it if clark could not body swap away during the night.whether I think that childs is town, trying to focus on how to deal with a situation using exactly their PR
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:24 am
Okay, but if you meant to type Nauls instead of Fuchs there, why did I not make it to your town reads list in there, given I was your most fleshed out town read prior to that post?
In post 542, Clark~ wrote:My strongest townread is still Garry, then probably Childs.
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:26 am
Because I town read them more than you...
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:45 am
I'm not usually great at this setup spec - is there something I'm missing here, that would imply novice vig -> clarke town? I just don't followIn post 564, Bennings~ wrote:^In post 558, MacReady~ wrote:I'm at a loss how we're going from your role to 'completely confirming Clark's alignment' hereIn post 546, Childs~ wrote:I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.