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[Andresvmb]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

there is a very big difference between the two. i could write multiple thousand words on it, and i'd had to explain this concept before, but the main point is: if i'm scum here, pushing lapla is what i would do as town. but nobody in the town knows that, because nobody can actually read my mind. so i lose nothing by shutting the fuck up and not making him attract heat early. and it's not like i could've known that koba was going to latch onto lapla, your argument necessitates me being a lowkey koba mind reader.

the fact that you're linking 695 and 738 in order to refute my point is laughable. read what 738 says, "i do not townread iv, but i want to kill lapla first". nowhere am i setting up a clean trajectory for townreading iv later on. and 1153 isn't even a push, it's a sorting question.

This argument that you lose nothing is demonstrably false. You lose in the department that I know you care most about as Scum - establishing credibility. You’re too loud as Scum not to want to weave a narrative throughout the game. In the post you quoted, you indicated that as Scum, you are all about establishing a thought process that’s sensible and appears Town, but gets you closer to winning. I suspect you also know that I play the same way. The main thread behind a lot of your arguments against me is that you work meticulously to establish a narrative that gets you closer to victory, and leaves little to chance. But by implication, you’re making it sound like I can’t play like this or don’t. But this is bullshit. I do worry tremendously as Scum about the forward implications of every move I make. Yet you insisted on highlighting repeatedly throughout this game how I’m unlikely to have placed a vote of Laplacian in the way that I did, without much angling to take credit for anything. There’s an extension to this. I continued to argue for a mechanical solution to IV’s alignment I believed in, when strategically the clear choice was to distance hard at that stage. Because frankly, as Scum there, only one of us is required to win the game. You’re arguing that you didn’t have to bus in ELo because you take your wins as you can get them, but strategically you were in a bind. You very clearly couldn’t go against Aristeia’s wishes without exposing yourself, and you continued to sit back and let Aristeia drive the Endgame while continuously asking you if you were Town. Sure, you can argue that you notoriously act indecisive in ELo. But how convenient? When the chips were down, you totally failed to vote for Scum.

again, the first part of this post is implying that i as scum am so good at reading the room that i could sense that, right after that post from lapla was made, people are gonna find it suspicious, and that my future credibility is going to take a devastating hit unless i start bussing and screaming how he's scum right then and there.

i have no clue how you play scum, this is your first scumgame on this forum. snarky jokes aside, you are now arguing that the clear choice on d4/5 would've been distancing because only one of us is required to win the game, but why? from an objective standpoint, why would you start distancing when you have a scum (iv) who everyone considers locktown due to their claim and shitty setup spec? and again, who cares about exposing myself when math is already voting ari, iv is voting ari, house is screaming how he's gonna hammer her (though more than likely bait, so we'll ignore him) and i have you BEGGING me to vote ari so you could hammer. like, reading your posts on d4 once she was on two votes, you wanted to vote there. and you had been angling to vote there on d5 as well. you're telling me i'm doing revisionist history, but you're deadass trying to tell me that, with a straight face, you wanna argue how the correct choice there for scum!me was to BUS AND DISTANCE?

also, "you failed to vote scum", he says after he no-warning lolhammered iv to be able to shut aristeia up. after spending the entire past two days saying how he wants to vote aristeia, and lowkey slipping how i'm town, and arguing how iv is town. while i was trying to get ari/math to stop arguing and was trying to shut out the faulty mechanical discussion. i'm scum because i didn't vote iv. ok.

You’re still relying on your logic and vote for Laplacian to make a case as to why you’re Town. Yes, it would be devastating. Laplacian probably warned you they were shit Scum, and you did what an experienced Scum player does in that situation - take the opportunity to create an unassailable argument. My vote for Laplacian gets me no glory, and you’ve been hanging your hat on that to keep me at a distance, but now? Nope, the louder vote should clearly be more strongly town read. It’s obvious to anyone who thinks about this.

[Andresvmb]

And you keep making the same point about why distance there when you didn’t have to. But that’s not the reality of how the day actually played out. And I don’t have to beg you to vote Aristeia there. I could have done it, and baited a hammer anywhere. I didn’t. It’s like I was actually trying to suss out what you were up to, and you refused to commit.

[Datisi]

You’re bashing me for considering both sides of a potential mechanical solve, and reaching the wrong conclusion. But you clearly have the benefit of additional information and like I said, I fully expect that this will cost us the game. Because there’s clearly no hiding that this benefited Scum. But the point isn’t that. The point is that you’re claiming I should be perfect in my analysis, when I made the same mistakes as Mathblade did. It just doesn’t make me Scum as much as you want to claim that it does.

i'm not bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion, i'm bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion while committing horrible leaps in logic that town!andres doesn't commit there. is the ascetic very unlikely or are you willing to bet the game on iv being town who happened to target aristeia? where is the questioning why iv is town besides the "i'm shocked he's here"? did town!andres really forget how town almost got pushed off a cliff for blindly following a pt cop claim way back when?

[Andresvmb]

And I voted to shut up Aristeia? That’s a laughable comment if I’ve ever seen one. So I let the entire two days play out as they did, and then when IV is close to the brink at the end of the day, THEN I decide it’s the right time to shut Aristeia up. That was clearly not the intention and you know it.

[Andresvmb]

You’re bashing me for considering both sides of a potential mechanical solve, and reaching the wrong conclusion. But you clearly have the benefit of additional information and like I said, I fully expect that this will cost us the game. Because there’s clearly no hiding that this benefited Scum. But the point isn’t that. The point is that you’re claiming I should be perfect in my analysis, when I made the same mistakes as Mathblade did. It just doesn’t make me Scum as much as you want to claim that it does.

i'm not bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion, i'm bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion while committing horrible leaps in logic that town!andres doesn't commit there. is the ascetic very unlikely or are you willing to bet the game on iv being town who happened to target aristeia? where is the questioning why iv is town besides the "i'm shocked he's here"? did town!andres really forget how town almost got pushed off a cliff for blindly following a pt cop claim way back when?

You can keep hammering me on my mechanical mistakes, and I have no answer but to say that I’m sorry. I can and have screwed up horribly in other games and continuing to argue that I can’t make logical mistakes is a standard I will never meet. By this logic, you can always trash me as Scum provided I reach some wrong conclusion in a game. And it’s just not the case. I have made mistakes that have cost the Town. I never should have let Koba escape with a claim in a different game that was so laughable on its face I should have hammered it. I do make mistakes. And you continuously arguing that I can’t as Town and that this makes me Scum is revealing. You want to argue you haven’t played a meticulously planned game, but you aren’t the one getting hammered for making mistakes. I am.

[Datisi]

like, the choice right now is, either i was town who thought iv was scum, but was paralyzed to actually vote for him because losing games is scary, or i'm scum who kept diverting any and all attention toward iv, actively stopping the math/ari and andres/ari arguments, while also stalling and not wanting to commit to the bus because...?

The problem is this is such absurd revisionist history that I can’t argue with the hyperbole. You did not have nearly the influence that you claim in the outcome of any of the past few days. You just don’t. And I haven’t even revisited properly the executions of Frogsterking or Skitter. Which you’ve completely glossed over.

Aristeia is centrally responsible for the death of IV. You aren’t. You’re claiming an absurd amount of credit for something you weren’t primarily responsible for, and didn’t vote for. You’ve voted for No Execution (which btw, I did too), and that’s the extent of what you’ve actually done over the last several days. This constant “refocus” you claim to have been doing on IV? It’s just nonsense. Aristeia kept the light constantly focused there, and you so obviously took a back seat it’s really funny.

Strategically, you didn’t have a choice. You clearly wanted to maximize your pocket of Aristeia, and envisioned that would get you a victory. Well, I suspect you’ve succeeded, in as much as I expect Mathblade to vote for me since they’ve claimed to have made up their mind without reading any of my responses.

i'm not talking about executions of skitter or frogs at all.

and sure, aristeia was the main driving force behind the iv yeet, i'm not claiming otherwise. but you know what happens to townies who are correct in yelo, but nobody thinks they're town? they get executed! math *clearly* thought ari was scum, town!andres did too. do you know how easy it is to enable one of them? math thinks i'm town, town!andres think i'm town, just make some bullshit up about aristeia and get one of them to vote her! instead i kept bringing up how mech makes no sense and the house kill doesn't come from scum!ari because lol?

and the "i voted no exe" is laughable. "i voted no exe,

after arguing really hard why we shouldn't vote no exe

." "you didn't vote iv, i voted iv,

after arguing why aristeia is scum, iv is town, and me panic-hammering iv after it was clear as day he was gonna flip with or without me, i voted iv.

" good job, you managed to bus when it was inevitable. the fact that you're using that fact as if it actually means something is telling.

maximize my pocket of aristeia. yeah, it's really useful to me now!! aristeia is going to bring scum!me victory after i sent her to the dead thread last night!! brilliant plan scumtisi. just fucking brilliant.

[Datisi]

UNVOTE:

And I voted to shut up Aristeia? That’s a laughable comment if I’ve ever seen one. So I let the entire two days play out as they did, and then when IV is close to the brink at the end of the day, THEN I decide it’s the right time to shut Aristeia up. That was clearly not the intention and you know it.

fine, you hammered before i got the chance so you could try to claim you actually had anything to do with flipping scum on d5, as if you hadn't spent the day arguing against flipping him. better?

[Datisi]

VOTE: andres

why the fuck was there an unvote lmao

[Datisi]

And you keep making the same point about why distance there when you didn’t have to. But that’s not the reality of how the day actually played out. And I don’t have to beg you to vote Aristeia there. I could have done it, and baited a hammer anywhere. I didn’t. It’s like I was actually trying to suss out what you were up to, and you refused to commit.

baited a hammer by whom? math, iv, you, me, ari, house. math and iv are already voting there. ari was not going to hammer herself, house could've been bluffing because god knows what goes on through his head, and i was very clearly not yet ready to hammer. who could you have possibly baited a hammer out of there?

[Andresvmb]

With inside information, properly distancing from IV who really had no business being alive is easy. Locking yourself into thinking that mechanics cleared IV makes my life impossible as Scum. Why didn’t I avoid voting for a No Execution then? You fail to explain that. You also fail to explain why I let the days run so damn long with the obvious knowledge that people can change their minds. And I didn’t bait an execution by House when I clearly could have, instead giving you the time to make up your mind, which you mysteriously didn’t. But that’s okay because as Town that’s how you play so of course that’s fine.

[Andresvmb]

And you keep making the same point about why distance there when you didn’t have to. But that’s not the reality of how the day actually played out. And I don’t have to beg you to vote Aristeia there. I could have done it, and baited a hammer anywhere. I didn’t. It’s like I was actually trying to suss out what you were up to, and you refused to commit.

baited a hammer by whom? math, iv, you, me, ari, house. math and iv are already voting there. ari was not going to hammer herself, house could've been bluffing because god knows what goes on through his head, and i was very clearly not yet ready to hammer. who could you have possibly baited a hammer out of there?

Obviously House. Or I could have voted and ratcheted up the pressure on you to actually do something.

[Andresvmb]

like, the choice right now is, either i was town who thought iv was scum, but was paralyzed to actually vote for him because losing games is scary, or i'm scum who kept diverting any and all attention toward iv, actively stopping the math/ari and andres/ari arguments, while also stalling and not wanting to commit to the bus because...?

The problem is this is such absurd revisionist history that I can’t argue with the hyperbole. You did not have nearly the influence that you claim in the outcome of any of the past few days. You just don’t. And I haven’t even revisited properly the executions of Frogsterking or Skitter. Which you’ve completely glossed over.

Aristeia is centrally responsible for the death of IV. You aren’t. You’re claiming an absurd amount of credit for something you weren’t primarily responsible for, and didn’t vote for. You’ve voted for No Execution (which btw, I did too), and that’s the extent of what you’ve actually done over the last several days. This constant “refocus” you claim to have been doing on IV? It’s just nonsense. Aristeia kept the light constantly focused there, and you so obviously took a back seat it’s really funny.

Strategically, you didn’t have a choice. You clearly wanted to maximize your pocket of Aristeia, and envisioned that would get you a victory. Well, I suspect you’ve succeeded, in as much as I expect Mathblade to vote for me since they’ve claimed to have made up their mind without reading any of my responses.

i'm not talking about executions of skitter or frogs at all.

and sure, aristeia was the main driving force behind the iv yeet, i'm not claiming otherwise. but you know what happens to townies who are correct in yelo, but nobody thinks they're town? they get executed! math *clearly* thought ari was scum, town!andres did too. do you know how easy it is to enable one of them? math thinks i'm town, town!andres think i'm town, just make some bullshit up about aristeia and get one of them to vote her! instead i kept bringing up how mech makes no sense and the house kill doesn't come from scum!ari because lol?

and the "i voted no exe" is laughable. "i voted no exe,

after arguing really hard why we shouldn't vote no exe

." "you didn't vote iv, i voted iv,

after arguing why aristeia is scum, iv is town, and me panic-hammering iv after it was clear as day he was gonna flip with or without me, i voted iv.

" good job, you managed to bus when it was inevitable. the fact that you're using that fact as if it actually means something is telling.

maximize my pocket of aristeia. yeah, it's really useful to me now!! aristeia is going to bring scum!me victory after i sent her to the dead thread last night!! brilliant plan scumtisi. just fucking brilliant.

Aristeia clearly expressed more uncertainty about how they would play today when pressed than Mathblade did. Why is that not relevant all of a sudden?

[Datisi]

You’re bashing me for considering both sides of a potential mechanical solve, and reaching the wrong conclusion. But you clearly have the benefit of additional information and like I said, I fully expect that this will cost us the game. Because there’s clearly no hiding that this benefited Scum. But the point isn’t that. The point is that you’re claiming I should be perfect in my analysis, when I made the same mistakes as Mathblade did. It just doesn’t make me Scum as much as you want to claim that it does.

i'm not bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion, i'm bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion while committing horrible leaps in logic that town!andres doesn't commit there. is the ascetic very unlikely or are you willing to bet the game on iv being town who happened to target aristeia? where is the questioning why iv is town besides the "i'm shocked he's here"? did town!andres really forget how town almost got pushed off a cliff for blindly following a pt cop claim way back when?

You can keep hammering me on my mechanical mistakes, and I have no answer but to say that I’m sorry. I can and have screwed up horribly in other games and continuing to argue that I can’t make logical mistakes is a standard I will never meet. By this logic, you can always trash me as Scum provided I reach some wrong conclusion in a game. And it’s just not the case. I have made mistakes that have cost the Town. I never should have let Koba escape with a claim in a different game that was so laughable on its face I should have hammered it. I do make mistakes. And you continuously arguing that I can’t as Town and that this makes me Scum is revealing. You want to argue you haven’t played a meticulously planned game, but you aren’t the one getting hammered for making mistakes. I am.

mistakes aren't scum!indicative, not by themselves. but fine, you're free to explain - how am i supposed to read you saying ascetic!ari is so decently unlikely that you don't wanna think about it, to you saying that's much more likely than iv being scum? how am i supposed to read the fact there was no thought at all put into "why is iv alive?"

obviously there's only one answer because i know you're scum, but from an outside perspective. you're not going "that's not scummy, i did those things because i had X thought and i saw Y and i thought Z and Q influenced P and therefore..." etc etc etc you're just going "well i am a human being and i make mistakes!!!". which like, shows there was no thought process present.

[Andresvmb]

And the only other thing I would bring up is that you came into today asking me a question but without the conviction to vote me, when you’ve been making a mechanical argument against Mathblade ever possibly being Scum. Like this is what bugs me about this whole thing and why I’m somewhat irritated about how I think this is going to play out. You have constantly made arguments about mechanics over the last two days that you say clearly establish that you couldn’t possibly be Scum with IV. But then why not come into today voting me immediately? How does that even make sense? I think you were hoping I would potentially express some uncertainty around Mathblade because if they’re mechanically cleared, why are they still alive? At the very least I foiled that plan.

[Datisi]

Why didn’t I avoid voting for a No Execution then?

am i tripping? dude, you fucking entered d4 with a whole ass essay titled "this is why we should absolutely not no-exe today". you voted there only when it was abundantly clear that's what's happening.

and "why didn't i bait house's hammer?" argument goes doubly for me, "why didn't i bait house's OR andres's hammer?".

[Datisi]

also, i just realized something: andres is giving me shit for not voting iv when i was "sure", but why doesn't he vote aristeia when he was sure iv was town so she has to be scum? like, there's a very simple answer in a scum!andres world, he doesn't want to confirm that the only possible partner to iv is himself. why didn't town!andres vote her, when he was apparently ready to vote her yesterday (on d4)?

can i just say how i LOVE how this post was conveniently ignored?

the EVEN BETTER part is that, i'm getting shit on for not voting iv at the time where it would be advantageous for scum!me to vote iv (assuming i really chose the bus path). but the fact that andres did not vote aristeia (despite having so much conviction she was scum) at the time it would've been disastrous for scum!him to do so? just fine. not a problem.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not about there not being a thought process. It’s about me being embarrassed to admit that I decided I would shut myself off to some extent from the mechanical discussion because I felt Mathblade and Aristeia had a much stronger grasp of mechanics and I was SR’ing Aristeia, so I didn’t trust that analysis and leaned on Mathblade for some of it. I should have questioned it more and I can’t really defend that. This is a mistake I’m going to have to re-learn for good, in that I can’t take mechanical shortcuts and should focus far more on the play.

[Datisi]

And the only other thing I would bring up is that you came into today asking me a question but without the conviction to vote me, when you’ve been making a mechanical argument against Mathblade ever possibly being Scum. Like this is what bugs me about this whole thing and why I’m somewhat irritated about how I think this is going to play out. You have constantly made arguments about mechanics over the last two days that you say clearly establish that you couldn’t possibly be Scum with IV. But then why not come into today voting me immediately? How does that even make sense? I think you were hoping I would potentially express some uncertainty around Mathblade because if they’re mechanically cleared, why are they still alive? At the very least I foiled that plan.

wow gee. datisi, you spent so much time arguing how there is no way in hell that iv and mathblade are partners. and then iv flipped scum. and THEN mathblade survived the night. you're telling me you actually stopped for a minute to try to think though if maybe, just maybe, that's a setup by mathblade and you're being taken for a ride?

an even better argument could be made against you. from town!you pov, you just made a HORRENDOUS blunder on the mechanics of this game on d5. yet, enter d6, town!you doesn't have a single moment of hesitation, a single "i've been wrong on mech before, i could be wrong again" thought? a single "wait, the person who is allegedly confirmed town is still alive, isn't that weird"? doubt?

almost like you knew that math is gonna be still alive >_>

[Datisi]

math, if you think you've made up your mind, you can hammer if you want. i don't know if i'm gonna think of anything else super important to say. i could write... a lot about why this game isn't my scumgame, but i know self-meta isn't helpful for most.

[Andresvmb]

Are you serious? You’re arguing that you spent that much time making arguments about the setup, and then you actually thought to chuck that all out the window when it matters most? Gee, it’s like having convictions isn’t important at all, and it’s just whatever works. I wonder what kind of mindset is that?

[Andresvmb]

What more self-meta could Mathblade possibly need?

[Datisi]

a mindset of a person who has, time and time again, been convinced of one thing going into yelo, and then a nightkill happened which should've told me that something was terribly fucking wrong, and then it had turned out that something was, indeed, terribly fucking wrong. yeah, i did spend so much time arguing how a math/iv team makes no sense mechanically and how math is confirmed town if iv is red. but the fact that math didn't die then? it doesn't cost me anything to use a few posts of the game in order to double-check that work, god forbid.

[Datisi]

a mindset of a person who has, time and time again, been convinced of one thing going into yelo, and then a nightkill happened which should've told me that something was terribly fucking wrong, and then it had turned out that something was, indeed, terribly fucking wrong. yeah, i did spend so much time arguing how a math/iv team makes no sense mechanically and how math is confirmed town if iv is red. but the fact that math didn't die then? it doesn't cost me anything to use a few posts of the game in order to double-check that work, god forbid.

[Datisi]

also, i love how that response is completely ignoring the fact that, town!andres, after almost losing town the game based on faulty mechanics on d5, did not take a second to even think if he was about to lose the town the game based on faulty mechanics on d6 as well. it's just, datisi, how dare you consider whether you were wrong. lol.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not that you couldn’t consider that you could be wrong. It’s that you’ve spent what, the better part of two weeks or whatever it is making an argument that conveniently distances you from your Scum mate practically perfectly, but when it’s the end of the game, then all of a sudden you should be given room to reconsider? What it shows, decisively, is that you will leave every avenue open to victory regardless of the merits of the cases you claim to have relied on when looking at the game. I find it preposterous that you want us all to believe that being indecisive here isn’t blatant evidence of a Scum mindset.