TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

[Nancy Drew 39]

[Flavor Leaf]

if the only way you can win as mafia is by making the thread as terrible as possible then perhaps you are playing against the spirit of one might call a game that one plays to have fun.

Nice hypothetical, I agree, though. If it was a shade on me, bad shade, because I've actively won with multiple different strategies, including charming my way to victory.

Y'all know I'm attracted to the fire.

[Flavor Leaf]

Y'all play like how Cheetory made those posts, you put the oil out there, then expect me, a hot flame, not to just casually walk over it and burn everything in existence. You blaming the fire, not the guy who put the oil down.

Is what it is, but I was never the first one to be toxic in any exchange in this entire game bar maybe StatusQuo, but forgive me for wanting scum partners in Team Mafia to actually do anything. Besides part of that first day, and maybe some in the last, I was a Team of 1.

Also, if players like Reckoner think that my vote at the end was a concede, lol, get better at the game, dude. It was over. Maybe I shouldn't try to compare people to the level of my foresight, I guess.

[Flavor Leaf]

;P

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Y'all play like how Cheetory made those posts, you put the oil out there, then expect me, a hot flame, not to just casually walk over it and burn everything in existence. You blaming the fire, not the guy who put the oil down.

Is what it is, but I was never the first one to be toxic in any exchange in this entire game bar maybe StatusQuo, but forgive me for wanting scum partners in Team Mafia to actually do anything. Besides part of that first day, and maybe some in the last, I was a Team of 1.

Also, if players like Reckoner think that my vote at the end was a concede,

lol, get better at the game, dude.

It was over.

Maybe I shouldn't try to compare people to the level of my foresight, I guess.

I... isn't this literally what a concession means? You think it's over before it mechanically is over so you concede and give up?

[Flavor Leaf]

I passed that level of understanding years back. It was mechanically over due to the sociological atmosphere.

I do not play a mechanical game, and I have proven over the years why the Sociological game is just as, if not more, important than the mechanical side of things.

The game was decided when Nancy locked in her vote, that was the fight. The fight for the Nancy vote.

In theory, with a blank slate of characters, yes, there was the mechanical opportunity still there, but this wasn't a blank game, so that doesn't apply here, which is something most players drastically underestimate the value of.

I've played a lot more Mafia than the majority of players, both in person, and on forum with an intense focal point on the sociological side of the game, and you can see my success record since I joined site in 2014.

I actively trained myself to play in different types of playstyles, every single one of my alts were created to play differently as well, and that showed heavily (besides my last like 6 months on site, of course), and frankly, after 7 years of playing Mafia intensely, I was burnt out.

Do I actively think I'm squeaky clean from this game on a toxicity level? Of course not, anyone who knows me knows I don't actually think that, but at the end of the day, I was a complete reactionary player this game, and I stand by that.

If people get toxic at me, I'm going to get toxic back. I'm actually rather strong at refraining from toxicity a lot of times too, which people don't want to point out.

If I say something, yes, I want to put a thorn in people's sides who are being toxic/rude. Were my posts here indicative of that? Absolutely. I will stick up for myself, and give my side of things in relative clear thought processes.

I very much doubt you would ever be able to find a scenario where only I was toxic in a non reactionary way. I live for the duel, so people coming at me, I'll take em down.

The last 6 months I played on the site, I admittedly wasn't as strong at refraining myself, I was burnt out, not an excuse, but an explanation, as you can see my last run was far weaker in terms of play than the entirety of my 7 years on site, but it's because I wasn't having fun anymore.

Like people wanna say "thinks he's so good", no. I don't think I am at this point, I know I am, and it's because of the effort I put into to forcing myself to learn how to play the game and improve on a high level, in game design, in town play, in scum play, face to face, and on forum, and frankly, they all continuously poked the dragon when the dragon hadn't eaten or slept in months. The dragon should have known better, but dragons fuck up. I got that power, so yes, it is on me not abuse it.

[AGar]

Dude your farts cannot smell that good.

[Flavor Leaf]

believe it, man

[DkKoba]

i don't think anyone with like reasonable mafia experience sees FL's situation and thinks that at that point there's any way out of it, when you have 2 votes on you in 4 way as scum with a good case on you, it's a courtesy at that point to just self vote and let the game resolve faster. It wasn't playing against the wincon. it had the same result as if FL stopped trying ad stopped posting in thread.

this game was objectively a loss for FL as soon as that case was posted on him and 2 votes were on him.

I say this as someone who had some experience moderating chat mafia games on Epicmafia for gamethrow where we needed to discern intent to throw - self voting to accelerate the game was not gamethrow if you gave an honest try to push a win. I think with >1k posts its pretty blatant that FL played their heart out for their win condition - to say they did not and slap a ban on it was egregious. You could have just as easily just slapped the ban on for toxicity and not the self vote - Don't set a bad precedent.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm like one of the biggest mafia try hards in the history of this site, so if people think I wasn't trying to win, I generally worry about them.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I passed that level of understanding years back. It was mechanically over due to the sociological atmosphere.

I do not play a mechanical game, and I have proven over the years why the Sociological game is just as, if not more, important than the mechanical side of things.

The game was decided when Nancy locked in her vote, that was the fight. The fight for the Nancy vote.

In theory, with a blank slate of characters, yes, there was the mechanical opportunity still there, but this wasn't a blank game, so that doesn't apply here, which is something most players drastically underestimate the value of.

I've played a lot more Mafia than the majority of players, both in person, and on forum with an intense focal point on the sociological side of the game, and you can see my success record since I joined site in 2014.

I actively trained myself to play in different types of playstyles, every single one of my alts were created to play differently as well, and that showed heavily (besides my last like 6 months on site, of course), and frankly, after 7 years of playing Mafia intensely, I was burnt out.

Do I actively think I'm squeaky clean from this game on a toxicity level? Of course not, anyone who knows me knows I don't actually think that, but at the end of the day, I was a complete reactionary player this game, and I stand by that.

If people get toxic at me, I'm going to get toxic back. I'm actually rather strong at refraining from toxicity a lot of times too, which people don't want to point out.

If I say something, yes, I want to put a thorn in people's sides who are being toxic/rude. Were my posts here indicative of that? Absolutely. I will stick up for myself, and give my side of things in relative clear thought processes.

I very much doubt you would ever be able to find a scenario where only I was toxic in a non reactionary way. I live for the duel, so people coming at me, I'll take em down.

The last 6 months I played on the site, I admittedly wasn't as strong at refraining myself, I was burnt out, not an excuse, but an explanation, as you can see my last run was far weaker in terms of play than the entirety of my 7 years on site, but it's because I wasn't having fun anymore.

Like people wanna say "thinks he's so good", no. I don't think I am at this point, I know I am, and it's because of the effort I put into to forcing myself to learn how to play the game and improve on a high level, in game design, in town play, in scum play, face to face, and on forum, and frankly, they all continuously poked the dragon when the dragon hadn't eaten or slept in months. The dragon should have known better, but dragons fuck up. I got that power, so yes, it is on me not abuse it.

To be fair it does take a very high IQ to understand rick and morty

in this ted talk i will

[Flavor Leaf]

I understand, I didn't handle that well either, is part of what I was saying, so it was on me to realize that, and make the change I needed to.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Hi FL

Long time no see! <3

these wagons are going to be beautiful for late game

I told Nancy you made this post because you had manipulated the game state masterfully to the point where no scum was being voted.

Is that what you were talking about? :3

I think you played exceptionally well this game and hope you had fun despite it not ending in a victory.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don't think anyone with like reasonable mafia experience sees FL's situation and thinks that at that point there's any way out of it, when you have 2 votes on you in 4 way as scum with a good case on you, it's a courtesy at that point to just self vote and let the game resolve faster. It wasn't playing against the wincon. it had the same result as if FL stopped trying ad stopped posting in thread.

this game was objectively a loss for FL as soon as that case was posted on him and 2 votes were on him.

I say this as someone who had some experience moderating chat mafia games on Epicmafia for gamethrow where we needed to discern intent to throw - self voting to accelerate the game was not gamethrow if you gave an honest try to push a win. I think with >1k posts its pretty blatant that FL played their heart out for their win condition - to say they did not and slap a ban on it was egregious. You could have just as easily just slapped the ban on for toxicity and not the self vote - Don't set a bad precedent.

you do realize that if we don't slap self voting like that, a player who is mostly caught can go "i would have self hammered as scum here already" and have meta for it?

that's effectively a trust tell. we don't allow those. the truth is there is never a good reason to self hammer as the final scum on your team. never. 0 reason.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s completely just untrue, though. The game was over even if I hadn’t self hammered.

It isn’t a trust tell because if I was scum and didn’t self hammer still, nobody would ever go “FL didn’t hammer himself, he’s town.”, that’s just not something you say to someone who has won more scum games on site than probably anyone.

And Akarin was effectively not playing the game (not a shade, she stated how she was feeling, understandable 100%) so there wasn’t going to be that fight there.


It’s just the people making the decisions are less experienced than I am, and instead of actively conversing with me, everything happened behind closed doors and they had to come up with some type of reason.

Had someone came to me and talked to me about it, and even asked if I’d sit out the next one (Which I had already planned on doing, mind you, because I am ahead of the game on that type of stuff too), then it would have been handled much smoother. Instead, they had to figure out some bs reasons.

I saw Reckoner got mad about it, so guess he was the big one who said something and isn’t able to comprehend the sociological side of the game.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hi FL

Long time no see! <3

these wagons are going to be beautiful for late game

I told Nancy you made this post because you had manipulated the game state masterfully to the point where no scum was being voted.

Is that what you were talking about? :3

I think you played exceptionally well this game and hope you had fun despite it not ending in a victory.

I’m definitely happy with my performance for the most part, i let my emotions in a bit much for my liking, and think it was a good game still.

That was definitely a manipulative post, but the reason it works is because I 100% would say that as town, and was setting the game up specifically so it would look like town me said it. VCA, Wagonomics, and Vote Manipulation is definitely a strength of mine, I feel

[DkKoba]

i don't think anyone with like reasonable mafia experience sees FL's situation and thinks that at that point there's any way out of it, when you have 2 votes on you in 4 way as scum with a good case on you, it's a courtesy at that point to just self vote and let the game resolve faster. It wasn't playing against the wincon. it had the same result as if FL stopped trying ad stopped posting in thread.

this game was objectively a loss for FL as soon as that case was posted on him and 2 votes were on him.

I say this as someone who had some experience moderating chat mafia games on Epicmafia for gamethrow where we needed to discern intent to throw - self voting to accelerate the game was not gamethrow if you gave an honest try to push a win. I think with >1k posts its pretty blatant that FL played their heart out for their win condition - to say they did not and slap a ban on it was egregious. You could have just as easily just slapped the ban on for toxicity and not the self vote - Don't set a bad precedent.

you do realize that if we don't slap self voting like that, a player who is mostly caught can go "i would have self hammered as scum here already" and have meta for it?

that's effectively a trust tell. we don't allow those. the truth is there is never a good reason to self hammer as the final scum on your team. never. 0 reason.

do you think FL had a reasonable chance to win at the point in time where he self voted.

[DkKoba]

like lets be generous: at least 1% chance.

[Flavor Leaf]

I personally believe it was under 1% chance, and the only chance that would actually matter is if Akarin came in and hard defended me, which also wasn’t going to happen.

So it effectively became a 3 player finals in which the 2 votes came to me, and they got me.

They literally got me there. They reeled me in, they just needed Akarin to take me off the hook.

[Flavor Leaf]

so it would look like town me said it. VCA, Wagonomics, and Vote Manipulation is definitely a strength of mine, I feel

so you definitely caught onto that, which effectively makes that post an Anchor point when reading me, and had someone looked into that more and reverse engineered it, they could have been onto something. I set up pretty good defenses actively to make sure that kind of thing I can't get pushed for easily, though.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like lets be generous: at least 1% chance.

Yes? lol

people get paranoid and change their minds all the time. Or rather, if he was going to die anyway why need to self hammer?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

he was probably exhausted and wanted closure.

it's not always about winning.

sometimes it is just painful to pour so much of yourself into something and not wrap it up.

[Flavor Leaf]

Akarin had basically site flaked.

The fight we had was the end game fight.

Naruto was supposed to fight the winner of Sasuke and Gaara in the second round of the Chunin Exams, but because of the attack on the Leaf Village, it wasn't publicized, but Gaara did eventually beat Sasuke, and thus Naruto did end up beating Gaara. The Chunin Exam technically didn't finish, but Naruto still won.


Shino beat Kankuro in their match that didn't happen, Temari lost to Sasuke before Gaara stepped in.

Weird ass analogy, but it works if people have seen it.

Same idea. I was Gaara here.

[Flavor Leaf]

I understand why some people think I had a chance, but it's like playing Go or Chess. The longer it takes for someone to realize that the game is over, the newer the player, and thus it's polite to resign when the game is seen to be over.

As Pooky said, and shown by the end of it, I was burnt out from Mafia, the last 3 months I was playing was for the first time just not fun anymore, and exhausted, so it was essentially, I'm completely out of energy, I put so much effort into this game, and I got KO'd.

My health bar got depleted. Like, they won. They beat me. The game was over.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I understand why some people think I had a chance, but it's like playing Go or Chess. The longer it takes for someone to realize that the game is over, the newer the player, and thus it's polite to resign when the game is seen to be over.

As Pooky said, and shown by the end of it, I was burnt out from Mafia, the last 3 months I was playing was for the first time just not fun anymore, and exhausted, so it was essentially, I'm completely out of energy, I put so much effort into this game, and I got KO'd.

My health bar got depleted. Like, they won. They beat me. The game was over.

Except Mafia isn't go or chess and it's not a zero sum game and it's not a game where you play by yourself.

It's a team game. Concession in chess and go and other zero sum strategy games is done because you can see that the movesets are closed off. That isn't the case with human psychology.

The truth is, I've convinced a group of 4 people ON THIS WEBSITE who SHOULD HAVE CONFIRMED THROUGH MOD INFORMATION ALL KNOWN that I was CONFIRMED SCUM that I was instead CONFIRMED TOWN by a narrative I had created by predicting this outcome and won that game off that lie.

A 0% to win game, turned into a win by sheer force of will.

Mafia is not a game where players can just say "well I concede" and be right.

And I find it incredibly offensive that you say shit like you did here, talking down to us. You're not better than most people here. You're certainly not better than me. Or did you not learn your lesson in Tenet where you pulled this shit and it probably was the main cause for town losing that game.

If you keep on this path, you're never going to improve. Part of being able to improve is recognizing your limits and knowing where your weaknesses are.

Mafia is not a game where anything is lost. If you fight to the end and you didn't make the right moves or say the right words, so be it, it happens.

I mean a great example of this is Wall street bets. A game where I was close to 0% to win and came within... I dunno, a single early game choice of who had the money of winning. I took an unwinnable game and got to final four with 2 votes believing I was town. All I needed was for the vig not to be bought by one of the people who didn't think that way. It was a shame and I just didn't get it right. I can learn from that.

But I could have given up when I realized they were buying it, but I had outs in which I could convince them to shoot someone else. Learning to try for those outs and playing to them is a sign of an experienced player, not a new one.