Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[The Fonz]

@ fonz:
Lissa was not in any danger of getting lynched nor did anybody even scum read her beforehand. Why would you consider voting her to be “hounding”? What I've gathered from my experience and advice in these games is that scum have a certain self consciousness when it comes to their vote. I vote where my biggest suspicion lies, because that's what makes a townie threatening to scum, what makes my words actually have any worth to anyone. But you felt that it was better to keep your vote on someone that you were wanting a reaction to, even though your vote literally looked like a no content vote, same as his. You admitted that lissa was scummier, so why is voting her counterproductive to a reaction?
To me, it looked like you didn't want to be accused of attacking weak targets, but didn't also want to look like you were not pursuing anyone. Hence the hesitation.

Erm, the thing is, with newbie players, one early vote can spiral into a wagon quite quickly, and newbies have a tendency to get really defensive and lash out at their attackers, which can basically lead into an uninformative death spiral. What I did instead permits me to get a better read on the player, and see whether she displays town motive when given the chance. It's not 'counterproductive to a reaction' it's 'counterproductive to getting a reaction which actually tells me anything about her alignment.' Also no, I didn't say she was scummier. I said the action was scummier, all else being equal. But all else is very very not equal. I was voting for FT because he was scummier in context. As for my vote 'looking' contentless? I told you I was going to follow up, but lost connection. If my motivation were what you suggest - wanting to be seen 'doing something' but not going after newbies - it would have been much easier to just vote FT and explain it immediately, no?

Also discrediting my post while saying you can't read me is giving me all sorts of scum pings on you. If you have an accusation against me, you can say them. Saying my post just “sucks” is just an unnecessary attack that townies just don't do. and Sucking isn't scummy either.

Saying someone sucks is just something town don't do? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Fucking brilliant. Never heard the term VI before? You being discredited is fine by me, because

your arguments are terrible.

It's generally bad for the town to listen to terrible arguments. And I agree that sucking isn't necessarily scummy, that's why I said 'you suck' and not 'you're scum.' Your arguments were sufficiently bad that they made me angry, and I am aware that when I am angry, I don't exactly read people's posts in the most charitable light - ie, it felt more dishonest to me than perhaps it would to an objective observer. This is why I asked for other people's opinions.

[FourTrouble]

Some of their points aren't very strong, but I don't see scum intent in their push.

Intent is overrated as a scumhunting tool. Scum aren't wearing their intent on their sleeves. Often, the intent is something like, "get town lynched," and if you don't know if the person they're pushing is town, you have to look at other things than intent. Here, Baboon's pushing town (me). You're not sure on my alignment. So to properly read Baboon, you gotta look at other things than intent.

Which there are plenty of. There is something just as condemning as finding scum intent, and arguably more condemning -- finding a contrived thought process or lack of a thought process. And that's what I'm directing your attention to. Certainty is fine. But scum are faking their reads. So often, their certainty isn't natural. It doesn't reflect their reasoning or the gamestate. That's a scum-tell because it shows that the read is fake. Town can be certain. I'm not doubting that. What's different is how that certainty squares with their reasoning. What I'm pointing out is that Baboon lost their shit when I supposedly stole their idea. And they voted me right after that happened. And their degree of certainty -- extremely high -- was a result of that behavior. I'm calling this behavior a "shiny object" because it is. There isn't anything scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. Which shows that their thought process is contrived.

Which is all to say, who gives a fuck if you can't see their scum intent? That's irrelevant. You'll see it when you realize I'm town -- i.e. they're trying to lynch town. But what's more important is not whether you see their intent -- it's their thought process. Which I'm saying they DON'T have. If they did, they'd have considered whether stealing their idea was scummy. They'd have looked at what the effect of doing that was. They'd have looked at the context in which I supposedly did that. They'd have considered a whole bunch of things that they haven't.

The only response to any of this is, "Well, maybe they suck," which is possible. Except I thought they were very competent as scum, and that applies to both Mara and Ceph, and that usually means they're smart enough to evaluate all the things I'm talking about, when they're town. You also got Mara telling you, point-blank, in this game and in other games, that when she's town, she looks for scum intent behind surface-level behaviors. Which she did NOT do for my behavior.

[FourTrouble]

Also, Tammy, where the fuck is F-16? Because by now, he better be town-reading me.

[FourTrouble]

Lissa, two things. First, some clarification. Earlier in the game, I suspected IHNC and Baboon at the same time. I expected Baboon be harder to read, so IHNC was my vote, while I tried to discuss Baboon with F-16 (also intended to get at F-16's alignment, which is important for my sanity -- personally I think he's one of the most dangerous mafiosos around, though I may be the only one to say this). Then, while rereading the game, I noticed 5-Off's response to F-16's question. 5-Off interpreted F-16's question as an attack on alignment rather than an attack on playstyle. That was a problem, so I voted 5-Off, since keeping my vote on IHNC wasn't doing anything. When 5-Off started posting more, I liked what they were saying. Reread them again. Saw their questions to Flubber and Nashville, liked those. Around this time, Anatole was pushing Baboon, which I also liked. So I decided to go after Baboon, who I had suspected since much earlier. So there isn't really much "switching" here. There are many moments of rereading and reevaluating what's going on, but overall, I'm actually surprised by how consistent my reads have been this game. Anyway, hopefully that clears up what you're calling "odd."

Second thing, please read 531, 537, and 576. Please reconsider Baboon's alignment. And please tell me if, after reading those posts, you still think Baboon is town, and if town, why I'm wrong.

[gossamer wings]

I was catching up last night but fell asleep. Give me a few hours and I'll re-read the thread and post my thoughts.
~ F-16

[gossamer wings]

Some of their points aren't very strong, but I don't see scum intent in their push.

Intent is overrated as a scumhunting tool. Scum aren't wearing their intent on their sleeves. Often, the intent is something like, "get town lynched," and if you don't know if the person they're pushing is town, you have to look at other things than intent. Here, Baboon's pushing town (me). You're not sure on my alignment. So to properly read Baboon, you gotta look at other things than intent.

Which there are plenty of. There is something just as condemning as finding scum intent, and arguably more condemning -- finding a contrived thought process or lack of a thought process. And that's what I'm directing your attention to. Certainty is fine. But scum are faking their reads. So often, their certainty isn't natural. It doesn't reflect their reasoning or the gamestate. That's a scum-tell because it shows that the read is fake. Town can be certain. I'm not doubting that. What's different is how that certainty squares with their reasoning. What I'm pointing out is that Baboon lost their shit when I supposedly stole their idea. And they voted me right after that happened. And their degree of certainty -- extremely high -- was a result of that behavior. I'm calling this behavior a "shiny object" because it is. There isn't anything scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. Which shows that their thought process is contrived.

Which is all to say, who gives a fuck if you can't see their scum intent? That's irrelevant. You'll see it when you realize I'm town -- i.e. they're trying to lynch town. But what's more important is not whether you see their intent -- it's their thought process. Which I'm saying they DON'T have. If they did, they'd have considered whether stealing their idea was scummy. They'd have looked at what the effect of doing that was. They'd have looked at the context in which I supposedly did that. They'd have considered a whole bunch of things that they haven't.

The only response to any of this is, "Well, maybe they suck," which is possible. Except I thought they were very competent as scum, and that applies to both Mara and Ceph, and that usually means they're smart enough to evaluate all the things I'm talking about, when they're town. You also got Mara telling you, point-blank, in this game and in other games, that when she's town, she looks for scum intent behind surface-level behaviors. Which she did NOT do for my behavior.

Thank you for your scumhunting advice!

[gossamer wings]

Though I will admit I stopped reading it after the first paragraph, so if I was supposed to respond to something you should probably ask again.

[FourTrouble]

Though I will admit I stopped reading it after the first paragraph, so if I was supposed to respond to something you should probably ask again.

Thanks for letting me know. Whatever I'm doing obviously isn't working. I'll go back to one-liners.

[gossamer wings]

You spent a wall arguing mafia theory and giving me scumhunting advice. It felt similar to getting mansplained.

[FourTrouble]

There's like 3 lines of mafia theory in that post... most of it is analysis.

[FourTrouble]

I should have stuck to a one-liner like I would have in the past. Here's my new response, since you're not gonna read the wall:

The "certainty" argument I'm making doesn't have anything to do with Baboon's "intent" (lynching town, me); the scum-tell at issue is Baboon's lack of a thought process.

[gossamer wings]

What I'm gathering from a brief skim is you telling me one of my scumhunting tools is wrong, telling me your way is the better or right way, and for me to do it your way and answer questions using your way and directed me towards the answers I'm supposed to give.

That tells me you're only interested in my thoughts insofar as they're a reflection of yours projected back at you.

[Nashville Dreams]

I've done some growing up
And I'm still growing up
So I know I'll never be as smart as I once was
That was back

When the world was flat
And mama and daddy didn't have a clue, way back
Back when a pitcher of beer and a couple shots
Made me bulletproof

Back when God was a name I used in vain
To get a point across when I got ticked off
Lord I'm learning so much more
Than back when I knew it all
Back when I knew it all


VOTE: Gossamer


Time to get some weight on those wings and see if you fly.

ika, you damn well better let my partner hunt. All I see in this game is a bunch of overconfident know it alls when we know nothing day 1. You are welcome to help us since you cannot punk us.

[gossamer wings]

Trust me Tammy I been pretty damn fucking awesome at figuring out town-you from scum-you. I even watched that newbie game where you were just scum and pegged tammy scum there too!

The pride cometh before the fail. I do applaud your attempt though!

[Nashville Dreams]

Some of their points aren't very strong, but I don't see scum intent in their push.

Intent is overrated as a scumhunting tool. Scum aren't wearing their intent on their sleeves. Often, the intent is something like, "get town lynched," and if you don't know if the person they're pushing is town, you have to look at other things than intent. Here, Baboon's pushing town (me). You're not sure on my alignment. So to properly read Baboon, you gotta look at other things than intent.

Which there are plenty of. There is something just as condemning as finding scum intent, and arguably more condemning -- finding a contrived thought process or lack of a thought process. And that's what I'm directing your attention to. Certainty is fine. But scum are faking their reads. So often, their certainty isn't natural. It doesn't reflect their reasoning or the gamestate. That's a scum-tell because it shows that the read is fake. Town can be certain. I'm not doubting that. What's different is how that certainty squares with their reasoning. What I'm pointing out is that Baboon lost their shit when I supposedly stole their idea. And they voted me right after that happened. And their degree of certainty -- extremely high -- was a result of that behavior. I'm calling this behavior a "shiny object" because it is. There isn't anything scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. Which shows that their thought process is contrived.

Which is all to say, who gives a fuck if you can't see their scum intent? That's irrelevant. You'll see it when you realize I'm town -- i.e. they're trying to lynch town. But what's more important is not whether you see their intent -- it's their thought process. Which I'm saying they DON'T have. If they did, they'd have considered whether stealing their idea was scummy. They'd have looked at what the effect of doing that was. They'd have looked at the context in which I supposedly did that. They'd have considered a whole bunch of things that they haven't.

The only response to any of this is, "Well, maybe they suck," which is possible. Except I thought they were very competent as scum, and that applies to both Mara and Ceph, and that usually means they're smart enough to evaluate all the things I'm talking about, when they're town. You also got Mara telling you, point-blank, in this game and in other games, that when she's town, she looks for scum intent behind surface-level behaviors. Which she did NOT do for my behavior.

Thank you for your scumhunting advice!

She's waitin' by the window
When he pulls into the drive
She rushes out to hold him
Thankful he's alive
But on the wind and rain
A strange new perfume blows
And the lightnin' flashes in her eyes
And he knows that she knows
And the thunder rolls
And the thunder rolls

Nice buddying there. Baboon and Four are likely T vT. Your perfume of buddying is showing.

[gossamer wings]

Although Nashville Dreams - I am super self-absorbed and do appreciate this hyper focus on me, but seeing as you're not as good as you think you are at reading me you should probably actually start commenting on things happening in the game.

There's 24 pages of information as of yet, and as far as I can see you've ignored a good portion of what's going on in your quest TO READ TAMMY. And in the process demonstrated that you don't actually know how to read me or get a read on me.

[gossamer wings]

Nice buddying there. Baboon and Four are likely T vT. Your perfume of buddying is showing.

Oh my gods. Your adorable! Thank you for this laugh. I really needed a laugh.

[FourTrouble]

Yes, I think you are wrong. You're saying Baboon is town. I'm saying they're not. You're saying they lack "scum intent." I'm saying the "scum intent" is lynching town (me). You're discounting the "certainty" point because they lack "scum intent." I'm saying you are giving too much weight to "scum intent." This is straight-forward. We disagree on Baboon's alignment. This disagreement stems, it seems, from the amount of weight you're giving to Baboon's seeming "lack of scum intent."

That doesn't mean I'm only interested in your thoughts as a reflection of mine. What I'd love to hear is how Baboon's thought process isn't contrived. I'd love to hear about that. That would actually address MY point. But you're not even addressing what I'm saying. You're giving me this bullshit, "they lack scum intent" response, as if that addresses the points I'm making. Which it doesn't.

I'm pissed off that you're responding this way. It's bullshit. I almost never write out that much shit, and when I do, it fucking sucks to have someone say, "I'm not reading what you wrote because the first 2 lines disagreed with me." No fucking shit they disagreed with you. That's the whole fucking point of making a wall. We disagree on a fundamental level, and I felt like engaging you on a deeper level. But obviously you don't want to do that, you haven't done that all game, and that's fucked up. You're not addressing any of the substantive points I've made, throughout the game. All you've done is skirt around what I'm saying.

I've actually addressed YOUR points directly. When you made a post about Baboon's tone, I agreed that their tone in one of those posts was towny. I gave attention and interest to the things YOU were saying. Have you done that? No. So fuck off with this "you're only interested in my thoughts as a reflection of yours" bullshit.

[Nashville Dreams]

She's been goin' out with him
She's been goin' out with me
Said she'd let us know by tonight
Which one it would be
So I waited by the phone
But she never called me up
Had to know what was goin' on
So, I drove by her house -- and sure enough


Take your pick. Which one is scum? Or are you just going to sat a vague t v s to further your agenda.


Four, work with me here. If Baboon is town, then the scum egging him on need to die right?

[FourTrouble]

Four, work with me here. If Baboon is town, then the scum egging him on need to die right?

Yes, agreed. If Baboon is town, and if scum are egging Baboon on, those scum should die. Why do you think Baboon is town?

[gossamer wings]

I think I've repeatedly said there are things I'm not going to address in particular because I wanted you and Falcon to interact on this so that he can get a read on you. You guys know each other; he should be able to assess you. I'm hoping he'll talk to you today and the points we've been talking about he'll bring up to better read you.

I've said I don't think some of the points are that strong but that I still think they're town who believes you're scum. I don't know how much clearer I can get than I think they're town, with not that strong a case on you, but I don't know what your alignment is and I'd rather wait for Falcon to interact with you and talk with him about it to continue. Like that's clear.

And no when you spend the first part of a wall telling me that I'm doing it wrong and then how I should be doing it I'm going to start to glaze. Because my answer is not going to be different. I think Mara is town. I think the way she is going about it is more typical for her town approach to the game. There are some things about her thought process, that once again I have thoughts about but I'm going to hold onto right now.

[Nashville Dreams]

Cause I've got friends in low places where the whiskey drowns
And the beer chases my blues away and I'll be okay
I'm not big on social graces, think I'll slip on down to the oasis
Oh, I've got friends in low places


Cephir as scum is not the type to seek attention Day 1. He blends. His opinions are popular and he's on the back end of a wagon. Scum Cephir does not push muslynches.

~ Hayden P.

[Nashville Dreams]

She's been goin' out with him
She's been goin' out with me
Said she'd let us know by tonight
Which one it would be
So I waited by the phone
But she never called me up
Had to know what was goin' on
So, I drove by her house -- and sure enough


Take your pick. Which one is scum? Or are you just going to sat a vague t v s to further your agenda.


Four, work with me here. If Baboon is town, then the scum egging him on need to die right?

Take your pick Tammy.

[gossamer wings]

Some of their points aren't very strong, but I don't see scum intent in their push.

Intent is overrated as a scumhunting tool. Scum aren't wearing their intent on their sleeves. Often, the intent is something like, "get town lynched," and if you don't know if the person they're pushing is town, you have to look at other things than intent. Here, Baboon's pushing town (me). You're not sure on my alignment. So to properly read Baboon, you gotta look at other things than intent.

Which there are plenty of. There is something just as condemning as finding scum intent, and arguably more condemning -- finding a contrived thought process or lack of a thought process. And that's what I'm directing your attention to. Certainty is fine. But scum are faking their reads. So often, their certainty isn't natural. It doesn't reflect their reasoning or the gamestate. That's a scum-tell because it shows that the read is fake. Town can be certain. I'm not doubting that. What's different is how that certainty squares with their reasoning. What I'm pointing out is that Baboon lost their shit when I supposedly stole their idea. And they voted me right after that happened. And their degree of certainty -- extremely high -- was a result of that behavior. I'm calling this behavior a "shiny object" because it is. There isn't anything scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. Which shows that their thought process is contrived.

Which is all to say, who gives a fuck if you can't see their scum intent? That's irrelevant. You'll see it when you realize I'm town -- i.e. they're trying to lynch town. But what's more important is not whether you see their intent -- it's their thought process. Which I'm saying they DON'T have. If they did, they'd have considered whether stealing their idea was scummy. They'd have looked at what the effect of doing that was. They'd have looked at the context in which I supposedly did that. They'd have considered a whole bunch of things that they haven't.

The only response to any of this is, "Well, maybe they suck," which is possible. Except I thought they were very competent as scum, and that applies to both Mara and Ceph, and that usually means they're smart enough to evaluate all the things I'm talking about, when they're town. You also got Mara telling you, point-blank, in this game and in other games, that when she's town, she looks for scum intent behind surface-level behaviors. Which she did NOT do for my behavior.

Thank you for your scumhunting advice!

She's waitin' by the window
When he pulls into the drive
She rushes out to hold him
Thankful he's alive
But on the wind and rain
A strange new perfume blows
And the lightnin' flashes in her eyes
And he knows that she knows
And the thunder rolls
And the thunder rolls

Nice buddying there. Baboon and Four are likely T vT. Your perfume of buddying is showing.

This is a super serious question you need to answer right now.

Are you actually accusing me of buddying FourTrouble in that post?

[gossamer wings]

She's been goin' out with him
She's been goin' out with me
Said she'd let us know by tonight
Which one it would be
So I waited by the phone
But she never called me up
Had to know what was goin' on
So, I drove by her house -- and sure enough


Take your pick. Which one is scum? Or are you just going to sat a vague t v s to further your agenda.


Four, work with me here. If Baboon is town, then the scum egging him on need to die right?

Take your pick Tammy.

...you clearly know nothing about me.