I mean, scum has to fake being town, so it's not a townlock. But i agree it's towncred. My experience with hectic is limited, but i have played some games with him recently, one of which was townhunt based. I was scum in there, and i won. Hectic was correctly townread before endgame, but his meta was... far enough than how he's performing here, although that particular game was very weird to begin with (it was a jester nightless, if you know the format).
Uhm, so... amrun and suji are on the same line in your readlist... gun to your head, do you lynch suji or amrun? That should end our exchange on that topic.
Your reasoning on me feels very much like reaching since I have explained all of my actions, and you were forced to walk the most damning thing back. In your own view - and without referring to someone else's - why do you scum read me?
This is extremely misrepresentative so I’m not going to answer it.
Your wagon is my wagon - I’ve already stated my reasoning in my own words, and was the first to do so. Implying heavily that I am sheeping and have unoriginal reasons is disingenuous at best. Anyone honestly wishing for this answer can ISO me.
This also serves as an answer to Farkran’s questions.
It is not close to extremely misrepresentative, so your dismissal causes me concern. Your initial rationale for your scum read on me was that I was attempting to blend in (see post 146), which I viewed as weak on its initial foundation, but we can assume you did not. You subsequently stated that additionally, you found my tone to be indicative of scum (see post 153); however, if you truly wished to assess this you would be able to see that this is my tone across all of my games. Next, despite initially saying you scum read me for attempting to blend in, you asserted you did not scum read me for that (see 165) after I questioned you, and instead re-asserted your scum read for my tone (see my previous comment regarding that). You then stated you thought my recent contributions were improved (see 254) and moved to another wagon. When Farkran entered and then stated a scum read on me, you began to walk back to my wagon (see posts 404 and 410) and then misrepresentated my actions, despite them being transparently stated (see post 489). When I called you on this, you walked it back but then stated you didn't like my unvote anyway (despite me stating why I made the action that I made) and deferred to Farkran's comments on my play.
Thus, I am asking for
your
current rationale for voting me without deferring to someone else's. This is not extremely misrepresentative. Please answer.
That is not what #165 is saying. You haven’t read that right. I definitely did (and do) scumread you for trying to blend in, and your tone. I don’t care what your tone in other games are tbh. I am reading you for this game. Secondhand meta is trash. You’re playing a lot of semantics games here and trying to conflate what I am saying with what you are trying to say I’m saying, and I don’t like that at all.
I DID make an error in remembrance which caused me to say something untrue, and when I realized that, I took it back immediately and made that very clear. I still don’t like your unvote. There were two things in that post and trying to make them one thing just because I made a mistake in the second thing isn’t helping you in my eyes.
Farkran came in armed and active and all of a sudden seemed harder to lynch, while nacho was quiet due to being away. I don’t like the jump from one absent slot to another because the first one was replaced and showing resistance.
None of my reasons have changed. Just because you offer explanations doesn’t mean I accept them. Explaining yourself doesn’t exonerate you.
I am not fire and brimstone level of surety on you and I won’t pretend to be, which is why I was happy to pressure Asriel since there was seemingly support there for a bit, but that doesn’t make you not the best lynch (or fight) for today.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:27 pm
by Sujimichi
In post 571, Chara wrote:i read 165 as consistent with Amrun saying you wanted to blend in, by echoing thread sentiment at the time to Nacho, and her saying she did not just scumread you for your lower post count at the time (point A, in 165) but that it complements the idea you were blending in.
i am curious about what she found better about your recent contributions, however.
you said Farkran is someone you think will be easier to read later, and that you didn't like his initial question about asking for a summary (which i did like, i find the practice useful and wanted to see what he would do with it). i'm interested in what you think of his recent posting.
I disagree with your assessment of post 165 for two primary reasons.
First, my stated townread on Nachomamma8 was not the consensus sentiment at the time that I posted it, and I was the first player to state such prior to my absence for stated real-life reasons. Thus, I could not be echoing thread sentiment. Now, if Amrun would like to utilize my activity at the time as a premise for her scum read she certainly may, but she should be honest about it since she has stated it was not.
Second, in the following quote, Amrun specifically states that she did not read me for point A, of which I concede was written with reference to post count ("I mean, that’s pretty much what a lot of scum do - post only as much as necessary."), but did read me for the tonality of my posts ("the tonality of his post is very awkward and buddying of nacho who is obviously one of the stronger players in the game, especially at that juncture.") which, as I mentioned in my original post following Amrun's redirection to be questioned (see 559), is easily researchable and in fact has been commented on by at least one player (SherlockHolmes). If she truly was suspect, I believe that is something she would have done or at least admitted was a weak basis. In fact, despite her foundation for her original scum read relying on my tone, my tone this game has not change, and yet she states my posting improved.
In regard to Farkran, not enough time has passed for me to re-evaluate. I believe that Farkran is one that can get caught in a tunnel on players as town (to the detriment of the town), but also is one that can use his activity levels to lead town as Mafia. Admittedly, I have not played with Farkran where he has been Mafia, so that is a weaker statement on my part. As it stands, the largest Fight wagon of the day was on Farkran when he replaced in, and I am currently trying to assess whether he contributions thus far are an honest attempt to sort the players that were on his wagon, or to redirect his wagon onto a mislynch. I am unlikely to be able to answer that today.
To answer another potential question that may arise, my current preference for Fighting in player order is Nachomamma8 -> Amrun -> Farkran.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:34 pm
by Sujimichi
In post 576, Amrun wrote:That is not what #165 is saying. You haven’t read that right. I definitely did (and do) scumread you for trying to blend in, and your tone. I don’t care what your tone in other games are tbh. I am reading you for this game. Secondhand meta is trash. You’re playing a lot of semantics games here and trying to conflate what I am saying with what you are trying to say I’m saying, and I don’t like that at all.
A few things:
Please specify how I was trying to blend in.
Without understanding someone's natural tone, how can you utilize it as an argument?
I am re-stating my interpretation of what you said. If it is incorrect, please correct me instead of redirecting. That's why I asked you to.
In post 576, Amrun wrote:I DID make an error in remembrance which caused me to say something untrue, and when I realized that, I took it back immediately and made that very clear. I still don’t like your unvote. There were two things in that post and trying to make them one thing just because I made a mistake in the second thing isn’t helping you in my eyes.
You stated you do not like my unvote because I stated a scum read on Farkran yet moved my vote. I still have a potential scum read on Farkran but, as I said, I feel that I can assess that better later (in addition SherlockHolmes has reason to belive that we are Town versus Town, and I would like to hear why). I do not feel you took that into consideration. Additionally, you stated you "liked Farkran's points" but didn't clarify what it was that you "liked" or why it was that you "liked it." That comes across to me as you not genuinely agreeing, but using someone else's stance to further your own agenda. I addressed both of your points originally, and did not just dismiss them because your first was incorrect.
In post 576, Amrun wrote:Farkran came in armed and active and all of a sudden seemed harder to lynch, while nacho was quiet due to being away. I don’t like the jump from one absent slot to another because the first one was replaced and showing resistance.
None of my reasons have changed. Just because you offer explanations doesn’t mean I accept them. Explaining yourself doesn’t exonerate you.
I am not fire and brimstone level of surety on you and I won’t pretend to be, which is why I was happy to pressure Asriel since there was seemingly support there for a bit, but that doesn’t make you not the best lynch (or fight) for today.
If I was not allowed to vote players because they are inactive at points in time, I would be limited in where I could vote. I do not find that a good reason. You state your reasons have not changed, but you did state that my posting improved. What was it that you felt improved?
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:36 pm
by popsofctown
<3<3<3<3
3>3>3>3>3>3>
Sujimichi really wanted to participate in the game. He couldn't deny his reading and writing skills, but there had to be a way to get to play. He wanted to design something that earns him fifteen minutes of fame, even if art wasn't his natural calling.
"Well, Farkran, using your own logic, it's best to pick the person to sit out so that everyone is hurt the least. Nachomamma8 essentially has already been a designer once. So if he writes the scores, then nobody loses a chance at all. We could even consider what Hectic is wearing right now the first contest entry." Sujimichi kept his hands behind his back as he presented his argument, feeling that it made him look smart. Maybe if being a librarian fell through, one day he could become a royal advisor.
"Hm..." Asriel rubbed his horns again.
"NO WAY!" squawked Nachomamma8. There were numerous logical refutations of Sujimichi's arguments: Nachomamma8 didn't design his own body and was not really the designer as such; Nachomamma8's writing skills were likely too poor to manage being a stenographer; Nachomamma8 would hate taking notes while Sujimichi would enjoy it, even if he would enjoy playing even more. Nachomamma8 thought of none of these things, his response was totally emotional.
"THAT SOUNDS GROWN UP AND BORING!" In retribution, Nachomamma8 flaps his wings along the ground, deliberately curling his wings likes scoops.
"I FLING LEAVES IN YOUR GENERAL DIRECTION!" The fluffy leaves just bounce off of Sujimichi's pants and sweater, and his expression is merely bemused.
With eleven players alive, it takes six votes to make a decision. (expired on 2020-02-01 19:00:00)
In post 385, Chara wrote:Amrun is a difficult case in that i agree with what she's said, and can identify with that. such as 254 as i mentioned. (about not wanting to let up on Sujimichi) but i don't know if making sense is enough.
Amrun, what about Replica did you like more? besides the contextual mistakes, which were rectified when pointed out, i feel like their posting feel has been fairly consistent since they replaced in.
Idk, I still think his statements about Nacho’s town case on Hectic is busywork at best. It clearly never intended to go anywhere. I DON’T like that.
In general, I like that he’s being active and producing content.
I definitely do not want to spare him today.
Chara, I did answer this. If this answer is insufficient, please ask me a more specific question.
I don’t think Replica’s posting has been inconsistent, which is why my estimation of it sort of improved. I think it’s very black and white, which contrary to your opinion, I think is very easy to fake as scum.
As for the other post we argued over, I think you’re misreading our discussion. Replica and I have opposite readings of that post, not the same one. That’s why the argument doesn’t make sense, because his interpretation of the post doesn’t make sense.
It could be a genuinely wrong interpretation, but it is a legitimate scum strategy to try and build a house on the sand and hope it lasts long enough for a mislynch, which is why I am wary of Replica.
I am not really interested in fighting him, though. The jury is still out.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:49 pm
by Amrun
@Sujimichi:
-Honestly, I simply am not rehashing why I felt you were blending in. I explained that as much as I care to already. I will add though that voting to fight nacho when you did, and also for asriel, are right in scum sweet spots for “going with the flow” and further my “blending” read of you.
-Chara’s explanation of my post is basically correct. I never retracted my feelings about blending in. I was saying I didn’t scumread you based on post count etc.
-Not writing a thesis restating something that was JUST said is not someone “not really agreeing.” I’m not annotating a bibliography for shit found readily in thread. I was referring to Farkran’s points about you doubling down on a scumread of his slot without it seeming genuine. This impression was furthered by you inviting when Farkran pressured you, all the while stating you don’t respond to pressure.
-You’re allowed to vote whomever you want. I’m allowed to scumread you for it.
-For awhile, you seemed less concerned with optics to me and to be loosening up a little, bit not anymore.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:52 pm
by Sujimichi
Could you please answer my question regarding tone? That was a foundational point of your scum read on me.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:54 pm
by Amrun
Also, I rarely, if ever, go and read some other games I’m not involved with for meta. I am well known for thinking that’s a waste of time.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:54 pm
by Amrun
In post 582, Sujimichi wrote:Could you please answer my question regarding tone? That was a foundational point of your scum read on me.
Can you restate it? I believe I’ve answered your questions so I may have missed it.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:55 pm
by Sujimichi
In post 578, Sujimichi wrote:Without understanding someone's natural tone, how can you utilize it as an argument?
In post 578, Sujimichi wrote:Without understanding someone's natural tone, how can you utilize it as an argument?
In post 583, Amrun wrote:Also, I rarely, if ever, go and read some other games I’m not involved with for meta. I am well known for thinking that’s a waste of time.
I firmly believe that you don’t come to understand someone’s natural tone by cold reading games you didn’t play with them.
I can only judge your tone by what I experience. My accuracy would improve over time and experience with you. Oh well.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:11 pm
by Sujimichi
So, admittedly, it is without basis at current. For the record, I do not advocate reading prior games as a good use of time either, but I also do not attempt to use someone's tone to support my stance when I am unfamiliar with them.
Thank you for your answers. I do not find all of your responses to be a good support for your position, but I am obviously coming from a standpoint affected by bias. It should provide good content for others to assess.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:13 pm
by Amrun
In post 587, Sujimichi wrote:So, admittedly, it is without basis at current. For the record, I do not advocate reading prior games as a good use of time either, but I also do not attempt to use someone's tone to support my stance when I am unfamiliar with them.
Thank you for your answers. I do not find all of your responses to be a good support for your position, but I am obviously coming from a standpoint affected by bias. It should provide good content for others to assess.
I’m not sure why you can’t judge someone’s tone just by ... reading it? That’s typically what I always do. I don’t really understand what you’re driving at.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:18 pm
by Sujimichi
I thought I was quite clear on that point. Without understanding someone's natural, or baseline, tone, you do not have a foundation with which to judge whether or not it is indicative of Mafia (or Town for that matter). You can make an assumption but it is one, by admission, without a basis.
For example, I cannot use the tone of your posts to make an assessment of your alignment this game as it is our first game together. I can describe your tone as it comes across to me, but I do not know what that is indicative of. I do not know if your tone this game is subtlely (or drastically) different from your tone in other games because, again, I have no baseline from which to evaluate.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:19 pm
by Sujimichi
As you indicated above, my accuracy should improve over time as we have more experience playing together, but that experience is currently at nil.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:23 pm
by Amrun
In post 589, Sujimichi wrote:I thought I was quite clear on that point. Without understanding someone's natural, or baseline, tone, you do not have a foundation with which to judge whether or not it is indicative of Mafia (or Town for that matter). You can make an assumption but it is one, by admission, without a basis.
For example, I cannot use the tone of your posts to make an assessment of your alignment this game as it is our first game together. I can describe your tone as it comes across to me, but I do not know what that is indicative of. I do not know if your tone this game is subtlely (or drastically) different from your tone in other games because, again, I have no baseline from which to evaluate.
I disagree. If I played every game of mafia with players all new to me every time, I would still be more accurate than inaccurate. Certain types of posting and tone is more likely to come from scum than town, and vice versa. You’re acting like it’s a stab in the dark, and you’re just bumbling around until you have 100 games of meta with each player. That’s just not how the game works.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:28 pm
by Sujimichi
Possibly, but I disagree, I guess we will need to leave it so that we do not clutter the thread in discussion of theoretical stances. I think your statement of 100 games is quite extreme and disingenuous as a summation of what I said.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:38 pm
by Chara
@Amrun, thanks for restating the answer, i did just miss it.
Farkran, not sure, i TR both of them but feel better about Sujimichi if i have to pick.
night for now.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:12 pm
by Amrun
In post 592, Sujimichi wrote:Possibly, but I disagree, I guess we will need to leave it so that we do not clutter the thread in discussion of theoretical stances. I think your statement of 100 games is quite extreme and disingenuous as a summation of what I said.
I do agree that it’s a theory dispute at this point. I am still glad to understand your POV better.
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:33 pm
by Chara
i don't consider tonereading to have anything to do with meta. it's not about comparing tones between games or comparing tones with experience. i know this isn't relevant to the game itself (in that it's theory, yes), but i'd like to point out that it isn't as simple as looking for differences in tone between games or having a "scummy" or "towny" tone, though i don't believe that's the point Amrun was trying to make, either.
it's about how the tone communicates the underlying personality of the player, and how that personality compares to their play.
i downplay tonereading regularly as a reflex to what seems to be the notion that it's an inferior scumhunting tool, but i don't really believe that it is when it comes down to it.
Sujimichi, thanks for the answer on 165, i still don't believe there's a contradiction there. as for Nacho, i still found his entrance significant, in that i see how Amrun came to the conclusion she did. i think i'm not able to process fully the rest of your back and forth but i don't find it a bad discussion (at least in comparison to genuine cluttering discussions i've been witness to).
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:43 pm
by Chara
In post 580, Amrun wrote:Chara, I did answer this. If this answer is insufficient, please ask me a more specific question.
I don’t think Replica’s posting has been inconsistent, which is why my estimation of it sort of improved. I think it’s very black and white, which contrary to your opinion, I think is very easy to fake as scum.
As for the other post we argued over, I think you’re misreading our discussion. Replica and I have opposite readings of that post, not the same one. That’s why the argument doesn’t make sense, because his interpretation of the post doesn’t make sense.
It could be a genuinely wrong interpretation, but it is a legitimate scum strategy to try and build a house on the sand and hope it lasts long enough for a mislynch, which is why I am wary of Replica.
I am not really interested in fighting him, though. The jury is still out.
i suppose that's true. my experience definitely lies in the opposite view, in that an unstable house is eventually doomed to fail, and so it doesn't work out in the longterm. but it's not like there's only one way to play scum. i'm still happy with it after a reread, though we'll see what Replica thinks of my reply. i did get that you two were reading the post differently, what i meant by "having the same reading" was that you both read it as me being surprised Nacho defended me, when surprise wasn't really an emotion that was there.
i'm also curious if my last few posts with Farkran were that hard to understand, to you and to Sujimichi. or whoever else. i thought it was clear i was updating as i continued on, but i'd like opinions on Farkran's questioning as well.