In post 481, catboi wrote:I should be selfevidently town because I wouldn't have reacted to the tracker guilty that way at all (because I'd either know it's fake or because it'd confirm me), and because the other PR is really, really obvious and I'd have just nightkilled them.
In post 550, catboi wrote:
And again, you think I just slam back at the person who's mostly universally townread as scum? That trying to flip him with a "shitpush" is likely to succeed?
Please
. The idea is ludicrous.
catboi wrote:
Yes, igor, I am very definitely trying to put people in doubt! That's the point! Do you think me putting doubt on you is at all useful if I'm going to flip red?
I fully believe the emotional response is real here, but I can't say I find these arguments convincing anyways. "If I were scum, I would have just done x" / "I wouldn't be doing this if I were scum!" are fully unprovable and I don't think I'd have found the hypothetical behavior much less suspicious. It feels to me like you're saying way too much to try and move the town's focus and, if that doesn't work, remind everyone that this isn't scum behavior because scum wouldn't push suspicion onto clear townies ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
On holiday, but still wanting to play the game. And I’m catching up right now.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:23 am
by frogsfrogs
In post 421, frogsfrogs wrote:
Catboi : Don't trust their reads, especially the multiple they've swung quite significantly on in a way I don't understand. They've had MafMen as scum, to town when his train eased, back to scum as this day starts because apparently they rethought that read overnight. They've soft shaded Val a few times without doing anything about it, like they're interested in voting Val but only later on and if they see enough support. Their push on me right now is reasonable if they
are
town, I get it, but in combination with everything else, I think I'm just a player on the edge of a few townreads who named catboi as a potential sus yesterday and isn't going to make them look bad if they push me.
Catboi, if you want engagement, can you tell me about your MafMen read throughout the game? Why has it changed when it has?
I'm voting catboi here and they'll be at E-1. Would be nice if greeting caught up and answered some questions before we get to a hammer VOTE: catboi
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:24 am
by StrangeMatter
Absolutely not let’s not put Catboi at E-1.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:24 am
by catboi
In post 567, Val89 wrote:'Hell, might as well go all in on spreading as much shade as possible since I'm probably getting limmed here. UnCCd PR claims, slots I've said I think are town but I don't like, anyone is fair game'.
Do you actually think this is what scum close to elimination does? Just make an enemy of everyone and seal my fate? Do you see scum do this in games you've played?
Further, do you actually think I'm shading "anyone"? I've actually been quite specific in who I've directed my attention to here. I'm also not "shading" you, I'm questioning you! My approach to you is significantly different from how I responded to implo where I basically just called him lockscum for scumreading me.
And why are you acting like an un-cc'd PR is confirmed town in a multi-setup? I've already explained the scenario where it's possible for the claim to be fake. Is there something in igorsprite's posting, aside from the claim, that makes you assume he absolutely has to be town here?
In post 444, frogsfrogs wrote:What the hell is going on here? Why did Greeting and catboi align so quickly after catboi claimed VT, as if that couldn't be false?? Igor, what is it you're saying about your track results? Did you see catboi visit someone or not???
i didn't see lol, the jailkeeper targeted me last night so i received no result
I’ll maybe consider not voting the hell out of you if you start being even remotely believable with this. The fact that you’re a newbie might have justified you once in my eyes, but I don’t buy this or any of that supposed chaotic good energy. To me it sounds more like chaotic evil which attempts to hide their chaos with even more chaos.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:32 am
by Greeting
^ To put it very simply, post 2 has a table with all possible power role combinations in the game. You once claimed to be targeted by a Jailkeeper and saved by a Doctor, which is impossible, because these two roles never appear in one cell.
Making up shit to go honestly is just digging your hole to me.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:35 am
by frogsfrogs
Igor said the doctor thing was part of one of the lie gambits. His official statement now, for real no lying, is that he tried to track and was roleblocked by a jailkeeper.
In post 421, frogsfrogs wrote:
Catboi : Don't trust their reads, especially the multiple they've swung quite significantly on in a way I don't understand. They've had MafMen as scum, to town when his train eased, back to scum as this day starts because apparently they rethought that read overnight. They've soft shaded Val a few times without doing anything about it, like they're interested in voting Val but only later on and if they see enough support. Their push on me right now is reasonable if they
are
town, I get it, but in combination with everything else, I think I'm just a player on the edge of a few townreads who named catboi as a potential sus yesterday and isn't going to make them look bad if they push me.
Catboi, if you want engagement, can you tell me about your MafMen read throughout the game? Why has it changed when it has?
I'm voting catboi here and they'll be at E-1. Would be nice if greeting caught up and answered some questions before we get to a hammer VOTE: catboi
Sorry, I saw your reads list but wound up passing it over because I got sidetracked due to igorsprite's fake guilty on me.
So, with regard to MafMen: at first I felt that his posting in the early game was too focused on commentary (e.g. 19242537). Experience and gut tells me oftentimes scum will focus on these sort of mechanical type posts over ones which actually advance the game. That was why I voted him initially. Then, the early townread on Greeting in 49 felt TMI-ish, given Greeting hadn't said all that much worthy of a townread on him. So I supported the wagon on him. As the day went on, I felt like him totally ignoring the wagon was probably more likely to come from town, and I was agreeing with him a lot about disliking the way Val was pushing greeting. In the moment, all his reactions felt "right". Overnight, I wavered on that read because I felt like I might have been wrong about Val, and because in another game I encountered a player who as scum spent most of his time arguing against a townie who was posting ridiculous theories. It's very easy to position yourself as the "correct" one in an argument with a townie who is being illogical, and my fear was that was what MafMen was doing. However, when I brought this up at the start of the day, I didn't really hate his response to me in 390, so I got the sense my paranoia was unwarranted. The way he backed off me with at first going "I still sus you" and then following with a sort of "argh I don't know"
looks
like town genuinely wrangling with doubt.
Now, all that being said: why do you find my wavering back and forth on my read of MafMen to be actually scummy? What's the scum motivation there, rather than me simply being town who's indecisive on their read?
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:41 am
by Greeting
In post 504, catboi wrote:I want a promise from everyone that after you flip me, implosion gets insta-voted tomorrow.
In post 506, catboi wrote:There is no way town is this far up their own ass, when called on his shallow reasoning he gets smug and dismissive, he knows he has the upper hand here, whatever. There's no way any of this treatment of me is remotely good faith and he is straining in the most tenuous way to shut down my objections rather than considering that this could be coming from town perspective.
WHEN I FLIP TOWN, YOU VOTE IMPLOSION 100%
Why? I see them as very neutral really, they attempted to mediate between me and Val89 in 186 and later posts. Mafia really have little reason to do such thing. It sounds like a low-risk low-reward kind of deal lol.
In post 501, catboi wrote:he's coasting on too-confident townreads and shallow POE
You're saying this to call me scum, but this is actually a way to describe my town playstyle that is a remarkable combination of accurate and uncharitable. Falling into too-confident townreads that I fail to get myself out of is something that happens and that I sometimes shoot myself in the foot with, but I also ride those townreads to victory sometimes (I'd like to think more often than random but like, I'm not especially good at online mafia lol)
implosion taking his foot off the gas here to randomly defend himself from an off-hand comment of catbois doesnt look that good in all fairness
It looks like they just lost their cool. Happened to me before, in this game as well. I’ll follow up on their case though.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:42 am
by catboi
Mmmmm, it may be egotism at play again but I suspect scum are going all-in trying to elim me here. Wish I could tell out of the 4 which is which.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:48 am
by catboi
In post 585, Greeting wrote:Why? I see them as very neutral really, they attempted to mediate between me and Val89 in 186 and later posts. Mafia really have little reason to do such thing. It sounds like a low-risk low-reward kind of deal lol.
"very neutral" is, at the least, a beneficial way for scum to play. Him "mediating" between you two looks nice but he doesn't really attempt to diffuse the tension between you at all, he's just kind of let it fester while not getting involved too much.
And that's not even to say I'm confident his approach there makes him scum, I'm just not sure it makes him town, you know?
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:56 am
by catboi
Let's go in further here
In post 421, frogsfrogs wrote:Greeting : I've publicly gone back and forth on him. I don't consider the self hammer announcement to be necessarily town but now his posting since then has been weird. In my PoE but probably third.
What about Greeting's posting is "weird", and why do you find that to be potentially scum-indicative?
In post 421, frogsfrogs wrote:Implosion : Really widely townread and I agree. Asks a lot of incisive questions and makes his own thoughts clear at the right times. If you're scum, you're really great at it! :'D
That last line here is a real :thinkingemoji: What questions of implosion's are "incisive"? What about "making his own thoughts clear" is a towntell exactly? Why don't scum want to make their thoughts clear?
In post 421, frogsfrogs wrote:MafMen: Still think the argument that his first few posts were bad holds water and I haven't actually seen anything from him since that makes me townread. Pushing Val today is dumb and looks like scum grabbing at what they think is a viable train, since he's been controversial.
Why do you see val as a "viable train", when exactly three people have expressed suspicion of him, and you're scumleaning everyone doing it? Who do you think is going to make Val a potential elim here?
In post 421, frogsfrogs wrote:Val89 : His outspoken-ness is a playstyle thing for sure but I think it's been placed correctly and good for town since he's swapped in. If he were scum, his play so far would have only been hurting himself and placing a massive target on his back. Have not seen reasonable explanation as to how he makes sense as scum.
Has it placed a target on him, though? He's not even come close to being an elimination. Wouldn't "being outspoken" and "placing a massive target on his back" equally describe me? What do you think he's done that's "placed correctly" and "good for town"? This is all very vague.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:05 am
by igorsprite
moving my vote to avoid hammer
VOTE: Greeting
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:07 am
by StrangeMatter
Greeting, can you please respond to my question to #468, please?
(Also on a side note I still haven't been able to figure out how to link to my other posts yet, I get how it works though)
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:11 am
by igorsprite
In post 582, Greeting wrote:^ To put it very simply, post 2 has a table with all possible power role combinations in the game. You once claimed to be targeted by a Jailkeeper and saved by a Doctor, which is impossible, because these two roles never appear in one cell.
Making up shit to go honestly is just digging your hole to me.
exactly what frogsfrogs said
In post 583, frogsfrogs wrote:Igor said the doctor thing was part of one of the lie gambits. His official statement now, for real no lying, is that he tried to track and was roleblocked by a jailkeeper.
I don't really think there was any danger of me getting hammered early, but it's appreciated.
it's because i want to hammer you
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:25 am
by Greeting
In post 468, StrangeMatter wrote:Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.
They made a few statements which contradict one another. Expanding on what I said in 582, you don’t sound very believable if you change your version multiple times. It occurs to me that the lies were brushed off by catboi as newbie nonsense, but I don’t share that view. I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence.
In post 468, StrangeMatter wrote:Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.
They made a few statements which contradict one another. Expanding on what I said in 582, you don’t sound very believable if you change your version multiple times. It occurs to me that the lies were brushed off by catboi as newbie nonsense, but I don’t share that view. I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence.
Okay, so then according to that logic couldn't your self vote also fall under "It's scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence"?
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:32 am
by catboi
In post 440, StrangeMatter wrote:I entirely hate the direction of where this game is. I don't disagree with the idea of Eliminate All Liars, but I feel like it's the type of mantra (according to the wiki at least) that gets easily abused by scum. Also, I feel like this isn't abnormal that as scum, catboi could be completely lying about not doing anything as well to cover for themselves.
Strange, I'm kind of confused because you apparently hate the direction of the game but I'm not sure what direction you actually want the game to be headed in. What's up?
In post 468, StrangeMatter wrote:Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.
They made a few statements which contradict one another. Expanding on what I said in 582, you don’t sound very believable if you change your version multiple times. It occurs to me that the lies were brushed off by catboi as newbie nonsense, but I don’t share that view. I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence.
Okay, so then according to that logic couldn't your self vote also fall under "It's scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence"?
There’s virtually no reason for me to hammer myself on Day One if I’m scum. It
could
make sense late in the game - as a way to divert the blame from the other scum member, but there is absolutely nothing a scum could gain from being voted out Day One. Val has, however, made a point that pretending to put myself at risk could be a way for me to gain towncred, since I wasn’t really in danger of getting voted out at that time. I guess that if you want to find out if I’m a man of my word, you’ll have to put me at E-1 to find out.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:41 am
by StrangeMatter
And correct me if I'm wrong, since multiple people have said this, didn't Igor say that he lied, so then it's not a contradiction?
As for what you've said catboi, I'd have preferred not to talk much about PRs lest we help mafia (I've personally as scum used things like this to catch PRs before), and made reads. Of course that's not where the game went, and I don't think I can even move it away anymore so here we are, and I thought I might as well join in and get reads that way.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:43 am
by catboi
In post 598, StrangeMatter wrote:And correct me if I'm wrong, since multiple people have said this, didn't Igor say that he lied, so then it's not a contradiction?
As for what you've said catboi, I'd have preferred not to talk much about PRs lest we help mafia (I've personally as scum used things like this to catch PRs before), and made reads. Of course that's not where the game went, and I don't think I can even move it away anymore so here we are, and I thought I might as well join in and get reads that way.
I mean, well, I'm not talking about PRs anymore but it was sort of unavoidable given that I was forced to claim. But I am trying to make reads now, as are most people. Do you have thoughts right now? I assume you not wanting me at E-1 means you think I'm town, although that might be presumptive on my part.
Why did Greeting and catboi align so quickly after catboi claimed VT, as if that couldn't be false?? Igor, what is it you're saying about your track results? Did you see catboi visit someone or not???