New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[Kagami]

I actually thought the game would be over by christmas when I signed up, and the rule change hurt me quite a bit, but I can see how this is probably much easier in general.

[mhsmith0]

Sucking up to players for no reason is not my playstyle. I made a pretty decent case on Kagami scum which nobody listened to. I think I said it in my lover PT too that one of Dunn/Kagami is def scum so it didn't matter.
I said SAD is just scum who doesn't want to catch up and hence is complaining about the hyperposting.

Nahdia what did you do with your charisma? Fuck all

Charisma is leagues more important than consistently accurate reads, silly.

Charisma is super important as scum, without a doubt.

As town both are important. Finding scum and leading lynches on scum are both important town skills; if your reads are good but you can't get anyone to listen to you, that's not nearly as bad as if your reads are trash but you proudly lead town right off a cliff, but it's still an area of improvement.

@Shadow: I do think that you need to figure out how to better connect to your teammates as town. Your reads were good, but your communication of your reads was poor, and your willingness to just wave the white flag wasn't good either. Sometimes when your back is up against the wall you just have to fight it. Even when it's hard. Even when you know you're going to lose anyway.

[Gamma Emerald]

Well how do you suggest we improve our charisma then, because I don't see advice, I see whining.

[Shadow_step]

lol true ^

and please don't tell me stuff like you're supposed to nice. If you're playing awful I'll call you on it. There is no two ways to that.

[Shadow_step]

Mh I didn't really wave the white flag until there were like 3 days left to deadline and I was sure no other lynch was happening.
I don't know how am I supposed to interact with people better when they don't want to respond at all? A prime example is Kagami, she didn't want to respond at all. I continuously pointed that out, nobody took an issue with it.

[Nahdia]

Well how do you suggest we improve our charisma then, because I don't see advice, I see whining.

You could try pretending you're scum in every single game you play. That's what I did when I first started playing mafia back on EM.

[mhsmith0]

Personally I think that empathy is more important than charisma. I'd be lying if I said I was good at either though, so *shrugs*

@Shadow: there were a couple points where you gave up on a back and forth; I recall at least one instance when you were under fire and I asked you a substantive question and you basically replied with a "eh fuck it" kind of answer. One really important thing to do, especially as town, is to engage with people who are suspecting you and be open about your thought process, and take the time to understand what people are saying and asking, and respond to them. One reason i tend to struggle as scum is that I'm VERY good at doing this as town (I'm virtually unlynchable as town, with a mislynch rate of under 5% per town game), but i care more about playing in a pro-town manner generally and how well I do as town compared to how well I do as scum, so this doesn't much bother me for the most part.

[Gamma Emerald]

Well how do you suggest we improve our charisma then, because I don't see advice, I see whining.

You could try pretending you're scum in every single game you play. That's what I did when I first started playing mafia back on EM.

How does that help charisma?

[Gamma Emerald]

BTW I stuck my call for help in the hydra academy topic if any of you want to teach me.

[mhsmith0]

@Shadow: Sometimes certain people won't engage with you, but when that happens you work to substantively engage with others. If you're left in a situation where no one at all will substantively engage with you, that's a different story, but I didn't think that was a board-wide problem with you, although since you were the one being wagoned i could certainly be wrong/misremembering. My recollection of our back and forth was that you were more cutting off discussion than i was, for instance, though again it's been weeks since your pair's death so again I could easily be wrong here.

[FakeGod]

Scum PT added.

[Nahdia]

Well how do you suggest we improve our charisma then, because I don't see advice, I see whining.

You could try pretending you're scum in every single game you play. That's what I did when I first started playing mafia back on EM.

How does that help charisma?

Teaches you to look closely at what people are saying in response to you. When you're scum, you're not just reading people to try to figure out their alignment, you're reading them to see how exactly they react to the things you say. If you do this consistently, you start to learn what works and what doesn't. And eventually, you learn how to adapt to different player lists & different specific individuals.

This is more for learning how not to get lynched, which is something I prioritize in my own play probably too much, but I'm would imagine it can be applied to trying to convince people of the things you're saying too.

[Andrius]

Subject: Human Sequencer - Parama PT

I try to avoid taking games too seriously because at the end of the day it's a dumb game and seeing these people who are only playing to boost their own ego and don't care about if anyone else is having fun are just depressing

like get over yourself, christ

Bro I can help u with this.
Sometimes you just gotta let loose embrace the fun.

[Parama]

shadow stop being a complete goddamn prick for once and instead of crapping on players maybe analyze the fact that your play was actually pretty crap and your personality is absolutely abysmal, i hated playing with you and i'd wotc you any day of the week

[The_Jester]

@The_Jester why were you still in this game though you should've replaced out for serious

I did try to replace out but nobody wanted to replace in and Mod asked me to stay.

Please don't solely blame me for this loss. While I admit I fell behind and didn't have time nor motivation to get fully back, my reads were mostly correct. I was right about Kagami, HS, Mini, Vedith, Maria and Shadow, Cerb (after my initial doubts) and even Gamma whom voting for I've abstained. I did screw up with smith/pie but at this point paranoia kicked in and it didn't help they scrutinized me so much. I think people put too much weight on activity (worth noting I was more active in our pt with Mini which also counts as part of the game). And yes, I may have not been that useful in leading town the correct path but it was partly due to people discrediting me early on (Parama, HS) and others ignoring me later on due to confirmation bias.

[inspectorscout]

I'm sorry.

[mhsmith0]

I'm sorry.

Mistakes were made by many. Learn, improve, grow. That's what matters.

[Andrius]

@The_Jester why were you still in this game though you should've replaced out for serious

I did try to replace out but nobody wanted to replace in and Mod asked me to stay.

Please don't solely blame me for this loss. While I admit I fell behind and didn't have time nor motivation to get fully back, my reads were mostly correct. I was right about Kagami, HS, Mini, Vedith, Maria and Shadow, Cerb (after my initial doubts) and even Gamma whom voting for I've abstained. I did screw up with smith/pie but at this point paranoia kicked in and it didn't help they scrutinized me so much. I think people put too much weight on activity (worth noting I was more active in our pt with Mini which also counts as part of the game). And yes, I may have not been that useful in leading town the correct path but it was partly due to people discrediting me early on (Parama, HS) and others ignoring me later on due to confirmation bias.

I considered it, actually.
I was following the game but I really needed to focus on graduating and not read a 200pg game.
Also Maria and Parama might have been dead at that point so sad days.

[Kagami]

Re: regfan post

#3 isn't as clearcut as you're making it seem, because execution is indeed an issue. The logic that pie's pair, from her perspective, was unlikely to contain scum so suicide is never the answer has the corollary that you shouldn't vote your own pair either. Because the game is always in evens and scum isn't going to self-vote for you, it takes an overwhelming majority of the other players to vote a pair to achieve a lynch. This is exacerbated by the fact that scum win when there's no lynch.

In the situation where pie suicided, with 8 players alive, it would take a unanimous town-vote to actually lynch SAD or Dunn without suicide or self-voting. While in a world of EVs or allowing confirmable randomness, that kind of cohesion is possible, in practice if you can get so many town-aligned players to vote in the same place, you're probably going to win anyway.

[Kagami]

I agree that IC should set up the pairs, but I don't think that would have worked out so cleanly. Lots of people want to pair with specific other people.

[Regfan]

Re: regfan post

#3 isn't as clearcut as you're making it seem, because execution is indeed an issue. The logic that pie's pair, from her perspective, was unlikely to contain scum so suicide is never the answer has the corollary that you shouldn't vote your own pair either. Because the game is always in evens and scum isn't going to self-vote for you, it takes an overwhelming majority of the other players to vote a pair to achieve a lynch. This is exacerbated by the fact that scum win when there's no lynch.

In the situation where pie suicided, with 8 players alive, it would take a unanimous town-vote to actually lynch SAD or Dunn without suicide or self-voting. While in a world of EVs or allowing confirmable randomness, that kind of cohesion is possible, in practice if you can get so many town-aligned players to vote in the same place, you're probably going to win anyway.

It really is that simple though, people should never be instantly suiciding, it actually provides minimal information to the town while having a very high likelihood of resulting in a T-T death. You're much better of trying to get a lynch go through first, if you notice that there's some serious resistance for a particular pair receiving votes and notice that there's not a great deal of logic presented by the players refraining from voting then sure there's a higher chance that pair is scum. And if it comes to the point where a lynch on the slot is completely impossible due to lack of cohesion then suicide is a potential consideration but at least then you have a lot of alignment indicative tells from how players are acting with their votes or lack of votes upon the flip. Basing everything on "I want this pair to suicide now, X pair suicides" minimiilaises the alignment indicative tells in the thread while assisting the scum in doing the dirty work for them.

If town play this early/middle game strictly like a normal mafia game with no talk of suicide or T-T pair hunting town win this almost every time, I explained it to Pie earlier but consider the following;

Do you gain more information from a T-T pair suicide or being lynched? The answer is clearly the latter.
Do you gain more information from a T-S pair suicide or being lynched? The answer again is the latter.

That means it's never optimal to just flat out suicide, a lynch should at least be attempted first.

[Regfan]

I agree that IC should set up the pairs, but I don't think that would have worked out so cleanly. Lots of people want to pair with specific other people.

Sure, people may not get to be paired with the specific player they want but in my eyes that's a worthwhile trade for the potential of getting a S-S pairing in the game that scum don't want. I'd have been willing to compromise with the IC just randomising a particular player NOT to be paired and just take the 18.75% chance of scum being eliminated at game start though.

[Human Sequencer]

mhsmith-pie

needs to be closely scrutinized but it definitely doesn't need to be today when we have

shadowmariar

,

jestermds

and

vedithgamma

all very helpful and informative lynch targets which are all likely to hit scum and every single pair can't be classified as t-t by a longshot.
Dunn's incredible lust to point the wagon literally anywhere else is concerning.

I really think (and parma agrees) that this DP is dragging on without flips. Namely shadow.

Favorite post

:<

it was nice of smith and kagami to defend me of shadow's accusations, but i think they're important accusations to make and they don't come unfounded. i would probably have a bit of a chip on my shoulder if somebody treated me as i did to him in this game.

i'm sorry i fucked you over, shadow. i hope you don't hold a grudge against me, because i don't hate you at all. we had some good synergy in mini 1848, let's try and carry that on into the future.

this was really my first game against a semi-competent scumteam, and it really shows. you all played far above what i've ever experienced before, which is both humbling and refreshing. knowing that there are players operating on this level inspires me to reach a new level of play myself.

i don't think i ever would have caught dunn this game, regardless of my play d1. i'm somewhat ashamed parama was so readily able to run circles around me for so long, and i'm similarly ashamed of how horrible my reads were d1. i'm a work in progress, so please don't judge too harshly, ok?

[Shadow_step]

shadow stop being a complete goddamn prick for once and instead of crapping on players maybe analyze the fact that your play was actually pretty crap and your

personality is absolutely abysmal

, i hated playing with you and i'd wotc you any day of the week

Not anything like this at all, you're worse for making it personal FTR.

[Human Sequencer]

also, i haven't read any pts or stuff yet, any recommendations?