New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[The_Jester]

All of them! But if you decide to read ours, keep in mind it was all game talk, at times fueled by large amounts of salt so we don't really

hate

you (or others )

[The_Jester]

And tbh some of that stuff is pretty intimate so maybe don't read it lol

[The_Jester]

(yeah I know that prohibition is the best encouragment)

[mhsmith0]

also, i haven't read any pts or stuff yet, any recommendations?

Whiskey

[Kagami]

Re: regfan post

#3 isn't as clearcut as you're making it seem, because execution is indeed an issue. The logic that pie's pair, from her perspective, was unlikely to contain scum so suicide is never the answer has the corollary that you shouldn't vote your own pair either. Because the game is always in evens and scum isn't going to self-vote for you, it takes an overwhelming majority of the other players to vote a pair to achieve a lynch. This is exacerbated by the fact that scum win when there's no lynch.

In the situation where pie suicided, with 8 players alive, it would take a unanimous town-vote to actually lynch SAD or Dunn without suicide or self-voting. While in a world of EVs or allowing confirmable randomness, that kind of cohesion is possible, in practice if you can get so many town-aligned players to vote in the same place, you're probably going to win anyway.

It really is that simple though, people should never be instantly suiciding, it actually provides minimal information to the town while having a very high likelihood of resulting in a T-T death. You're much better of trying to get a lynch go through first, if you notice that there's some serious resistance for a particular pair receiving votes and notice that there's not a great deal of logic presented by the players refraining from voting then sure there's a higher chance that pair is scum. And if it comes to the point where a lynch on the slot is completely impossible due to lack of cohesion then suicide is a potential consideration but at least then you have a lot of alignment indicative tells from how players are acting with their votes or lack of votes upon the flip. Basing everything on "I want this pair to suicide now, X pair suicides" minimiilaises the alignment indicative tells in the thread while assisting the scum in doing the dirty work for them.

If town play this early/middle game strictly like a normal mafia game with no talk of suicide or T-T pair hunting town win this almost every time, I explained it to Pie earlier but consider the following;

Do you gain more information from a T-T pair suicide or being lynched? The answer is clearly the latter.
Do you gain more information from a T-S pair suicide or being lynched? The answer again is the latter.

That means it's never optimal to just flat out suicide, a lynch should at least be attempted first.

What you're describing is exactly what went down, though. Lynches were pushed and not achieved, then suicide happened/was suggested. The wagons that were hard to push were not on scum, every wagon is hard to push in a game of evens where there's no motivation to vote one's lover.

There was alignment-indicative behavior in the pushes, sure, but they were overshadowed by the question marks in the game. I was looking at the Parama VCs in lylo at one point thinking "Once HS joined in, they must have expected parama to go down, why isn't there any further movement in players' positions?" But the SAD-Dunn possibility didn't seem more likely than one of scum-Jester/MDS simply not being there.

By Day 2, I don't see any strong route to victory other than my having been more willing to suicide and simply doing it immediately after the discussion with pie while the parama-wagon stalled.

Re: the IC thing, it's not about people not getting the pairs they want. That simply won't happen. If nahdia assigned them randomly, jester-mds would have paired anyway. Shadow-Maria probably would have too. You can't just say "we'll lynch you if you don't listen to nahdia" because we theoretically can't burn that many lynches (though in effect we lynched that way anyway). As it was, we asked Maria to pair with non-shadow and she did it anyway.

[Parama]

shadow stop being a complete goddamn prick for once and instead of crapping on players maybe analyze the fact that your play was actually pretty crap and your

personality is absolutely abysmal

, i hated playing with you and i'd wotc you any day of the week

Not anything like this at all, you're worse for making it personal FTR.

dunno in what universe "being a total arrogant douchebag to everyone" is anywhere close to acceptable

[Parama]

and the worst part is you don't up to it and instead try to peddle off the blame to literally anyone but yourself

[Parama]

*is a complete fuckface to everyone*
"don't take it personal lol"

i can't think of any nicer term tbh

[mhsmith0]

What you're describing is exactly what went down, though. Lynches were pushed and not achieved, then suicide happened/was suggested. The wagons that were hard to push were not on scum, every wagon is hard to push in a game of evens where there's no motivation to vote one's lover.

That is simply not what happened. Gamma-vedith was in no way unnaturally stalled, and shadow-Maria wasn't either. If anything, vedith gave up because he (foolishly) saw his lynch as inevitable, ditto shadow (to a lesser extent, though time very much still existed). Lynches are almost always hard, especially in large games. That people chose to suicide well before deadline, when alternatives were still at least semi plausible, makes your point clearly wrong. Suicide was the lazy alternative to the hard work of achieving lynches and creating meaningful interactions and town eagerly embraced that transparently bad play.

[Human Sequencer]

funny that pie/smith and mds/jester was t/t, huh

pie, smith, parama, arthur and alice, what do you think the most important lesson i should take home from this game overall is?

interested in parama and fakegod's opinion because they saw my raw thoughts for most of the game

i think i prioritized townhunting too much, and didn't concern myself with lynch order enough. ignoring the d1 asinine tunnel of course.

[Human Sequencer]

dunn scumreading me should have been a massive red flag tbh
i'm still completely bamboozled by how accurately, precisely and powerfully he misdirected me. incredible play.

[The_Jester]

Yeah he's a natural

[Shadow_step]

@Mh I don't know what you wanted me to do. My wagon was pushed entirely by scum who no matter what I did were never going to change their reads. There was zero point in interacting with them.

[Human Sequencer]

in light of human's reads i'd like to inform you all that she is going to be the honorary fourth scum

ow my emotions

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8633194
ow my emotions

i can take this lofty title upon my shoulders tbh

[Parama]

you're also the only person in the game who lynched scum so i have to revoke that title

unless you wanna call it a suicidal bus

[Human Sequencer]

stop parroting that tbh, it's not really worthy of praise considering my logic for doing it was shoddy and i knew my logic was shoddy and went through with it anyway.

so yeah, i was just hardbussing and helping scum w/ their 'powerlynch parama' stratz

[Human Sequencer]

i'm actually town traitor deathmiller, i had read-only access to your pt all game
only downside is that i win with neither faction :<

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Wow hi regfan I haven't seen you around in ages! How's everything been?

HS I think prob the most important lesson is to push/pressure your scumreads harder and to not be afraid to interact with them. Also mafia really should be a game of constant reevaluation of reads. I think A LOT of people saw this, but even though shadow was a jerk the shadow/Maria lynch/leave dance only occured because both me and Parama were hardcore pushing it. Almost all the rest of the town were townreading them.

In a world where Kagami left dance instead of HS I think we would've crumbled. Me and Parsma were already committed to pushing each other, so would have to still do that. Also mhsmoth would have been super cleared. At one point in the game I actually anticipated Kagami leaving and I think I asked someone else "Why can't Dunn and mhsmith be scum together?" and tried to soft push that agenda. Its the reason the setup is townsided on paper, it only takes 1 town/town pair identification. I think the more this setup is played, the more it will start leaning townsided if people take lessons from previous games (apparently scum have won all 3 large games of this setup, right?).

One suggestion is to prob remove the IC honestly, and just make it another regular townie. While ik it does add some interesting gameplay, I think in a world where scum have a real choice for the nightkill would be much more interesting, and would actually play WIFOM a lot better. People would look a lot closer to a scum/town pair being hardcore townread not dying than in a game where scum can justify it with "lol obv the IC will die"

[Shadow_step]

Or make the IC a normal one instead of announcing it at the start of the game. But because of pairs I doubt it would make much diff.

[inspectorscout]

Setup is fine as long as there are townies like me tbh

[Human Sequencer]

This is comical at this point

[Kagami]

The setup is fine, it's a beautiful thing that it's so numerically townsided but town is 0-3.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself, since apparently the theorists disagree, but I will conclude with this: If everyone is Hated in the next large dance, town will likely win.

[Human Sequencer]

Town needs to git gud, if the setup is already townsided nobody will learn by just putting a handicap in.

[Nahdia]

IC setting up randomized pairs thing is something I actually agree with and should definitely be a thing next dance.

[Kagami]

What would you have done when Jester-MDS and Shadow-Maria ignored your pairing?