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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:10 pm
by ferretlover
Why can't town mislynch
even if it is 6v3v3 the town hasn't lost yet.
both scum factions are trying to kill off the opposing faction
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:48 pm
by JasonWazza
In post 5950, ferretlover wrote:Why can't town mislynch
even if it is 6v3v3 the town hasn't lost yet.
both scum factions are trying to kill off the opposing faction
Always assume worse case scenario for a little inkling in the setup.
Not only did they never mislynch, they lost the game.
Try to remember this, it's a 14 player game.
13 player games generally have a MAXIMUM of 4 anti-town members for balance reasons (any more and it can be impossible for them to win)
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:27 am
by ferretlover
Werewolves and Mafia are SUPPOSED TO TRY TO KILL THE OTHER FACTION!
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:00 am
by Mr. Flay
But if town does it for them, it actually punishes town for lynching well.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:53 am
by quadz08
Not necessarily. Not to mention that if town is relying on scum to kill other scum, your game is poorly balanced pretty much by definition.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:39 am
by JasonWazza
Exactly as Flay and Quadz posted.
Worst case scenario you never want a no mislynch game to become a loss as it's extremely unfair for the town (especially if they do so well as to not mislynch).
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:07 am
by Faraday
In post 5954, quadz08 wrote:
Not necessarily. Not to mention that if town is relying on scum to kill other scum, your game is poorly balanced pretty much by definition.
every multi scum game ever then?
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:10 am
by JasonWazza
To be fair most multi scum games are balanced when scum doesn't overpower the town so much (42% of the town being anti-town is a bit drastic)
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:24 am
by Klick
Hmm. That actually gives me an idea.
White Flag Multiball
8-11 Townies (what is balanced?)
3 Mafia
3 Werewolves
Scum factions lose if they come down to one member.
Thoughts?
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:30 am
by Klick
In post 5943, LlamaFluff wrote:Also playing around with...
Forget Me Not
Town (10)
2x Amnesic Cop
1x Amnesic Cop or Deputy (random)
7x Vanilla
Mafia (3)
1x Messenger
1x Godfather or Roleblocker (Random)
1x Goon
Messenger is basically a fake Amnesic Cop
For those who don't know Amnesic Cop targets Player X and Y. The investigation result on X goes to Y
I think this is really
scumsided
townsided. Possibly three Cop investigations going around, Cops don't have to reveal in order to give investigations, and if Mafia get an innocent, they either have to lie about their result for a 1v1 or not reveal and risk getting called out by a Cop.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:39 am
by Faraday
Er. You mean townsided then, right?
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:43 am
by Klick
Heh, yeah
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:43 pm
by Cheery Dog
In post 5958, Klick wrote:Hmm. That actually gives me an idea.
White Flag Multiball
8-11 Townies (what is balanced?)
3 Mafia
3 Werewolves
Scum factions lose if they come down to one member.
Thoughts?
I'm assuming nights are included?
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:48 pm
by Klick
Yes.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:08 pm
by ferretlover
what do you mean by "nights are included"?
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:44 pm
by Cheery Dog
For some reason I thought white flag was a nightless setup.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:22 pm
by Klick
I don't know the actual White Flag setup
but I think you're right. However, this one isn't.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:32 pm
by Cheery Dog
In post 5966, Klick wrote:I don't know the actual White Flag setup
but I think you're right. However, this one isn't.
no I checked the wiki, I was wrong. *it's black flag (nightless) that's nightless.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:48 pm
by Klick
Ah okay.
But does anyone know what's balanced here? My guess would be 10 VTs, but I have no idea.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:55 pm
by LlamaFluff
In post 5928, Junpei wrote:Fools for Thought
7 Vt
1 MSci
1 town neighborizer
1 odd fool
1 even fool
1 mafia RB
1 mafia goon
neighborizer chooses during start of day and night who to have in QT for next day
neighborizer may choose to have a new QT made whenever a new person is recruited.
Mad scientist targets 2 living players and is told whether or not the alignment of those two is SAME or NOT SAME.
Mad scientist may not select a target he selected on previous night.
fool reaching its win con ends game
it has been mathematically determined that the odd day fool does not have a statistical advantage due to the odds to get lynched increasing in time.
No.
Apart from the fact that its jesters (amazingly amazingly bad to start) you are creating a game that can end D1 (actually getting worse) where scum are forced to kill two players who are not even town aligned (still managing to somehow get worse) and town is basically in a crushing position to start the game. I mean... 9:2 is somewhat scum sided but you have two named town (essentially) from there, you have a (essentially) a cop... I mean. Scum HAS to kill four players at night unless town can get lucky enough to lynch a jester on the right day...
Im not even sure where the appeal in this setup starts and there are a ton of glaring flaws to deal with. Are the jesters supposed to make this more scum-sided or something? I mean... the cop hits "same" N1 they just claim and bang-bang you have four confirmed town voting block.
Way too many issues, factions can hold the other hostage with the jester, unbalanced, fast finishes, forcing large numbers of scum actions... not really sure where to start even finxing something like this.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:14 pm
by Cheery Dog
In post 5968, Klick wrote:Ah okay.
But does anyone know what's balanced here? My guess would be 10 VTs, but I have no idea.
Of the three open approved multiball setups on the wiki, Fire and Ice has 8:2:2, Friends and Enemies and Enemies has 8:2:2 and Mason and Monks is 9:2:2.
Friends and Enemies went from 10:3 to 8:2:2 with the addition of the werewolves.
Yeah I think with increased scum you need to up the amount of VTs the game had original (White Flag is a 10:3 setup)
12 or 14 townies would work I think.
Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:16 pm
by LlamaFluff
In post 5970, Cheery Dog wrote:Friends and Enemies went from 10:3 to 8:2:2 with the addition of the werewolves.
That setup probably needs more town too.
Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:28 pm
by Plessiez
Not sure if I'm reading this properly: Does town win when the
total
number of scum is one, or does each scum faction individually lose as soon as they are reduced to one member? If it's the latter, presumably the last survivor of a scum faction is removed from the game as soon as this happens?
(In either case, I agree with the consensus that you'd want more than 10 VTs here.)
Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:37 pm
by Plessiez
Speaking of White Flag variants:
Grey Flag Semi-Nightless
8 vanilla townies
3 mafia goons
* Mafia have daytalk.
* Game is nightless
until
a day ends with mafia being lynched or a day ends with no lynch; once this happens every day is followed by a night phase
* Once nights begin, mafia can and must kill every night.
* Town wins once the mafia is reduced to a single member.
* Otherwise mafia win when the number of living mafia equals or exceeds the number of living town.
In other words, it's Black Flag Nightless until one of the scum is lynched and then it becomes normal White Flag. Aiming for something of the feel of Black Flag but trying to limit the chances of town walking all over scum from the start (which seems to be an inherent danger in any completely Nightless game.)
Odds are 49% with random lynching, I think.
Dropping one of the VTs might work better in practice, I suppose: odds of a town win are 42% then with random lynching (which seems safe enough) and town should be doing better than random lynching anyway.
Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:42 am
by ArcAngel9
Is VT's are compulsory in every open setup? or Is it just formal so that it gives a balance since mafia is only 20-30 percent in total