Mafiascum.net

In post 553, shwinnebego wrote:Roden: Are you holding off on voting StD because you're afraid of putting him one vote away from hammer? Or do you have other suspicions that you would like to discuss with the thread

I do have other suspicions but that's not why I'm refraining from a vote right now. It's partially because I want to be the hammer since I don't trust anyone else's intentions. But mainly I've been waiting to see if there would be any resistance to StD's wagon and decide how to progress from there. And right now I'm seeing resistance from you, but also a really bad push from Val. This tells me that there is 100% at least one scum between the three of you.

In post 539, shwinnebego wrote:

In post 527, Roden wrote:Schwin/StD is too easy of a hero solve for me because otherwise they made their buddying way too blatant. I think we have a good chance of flipping scum within these two though.

I'd probably be better off not responding to this since it doesn't really matter but, if I'm not mistaken the 'buddying' was pretty much unilateral, aka me commending StD's chill playstyle in an otherwise aggro game. Conversely, I don't recall StD saying anything to buddy up to me, but correct me if I'm wrong.

It's something he did early on that didn't sit right with me.

In post 132, Save The Dragons wrote:

In post 115, Roden wrote:

In post 109, shwinnebego wrote:I’ll post more complete reads eventually. I didn’t realize that each game day was a week tbh


Home forum is breadnroses, game days are usually a day

Range of high chaos to vanilla but we skew high chaos

You're used to 24 hour games but then you disappeared for over 36 hours? Doesn't really add up to me.

VOTE: Shwinnebego

VOTE: roden this feels opportunistic to me

There was never anything opportunistic about my vote here, and I wasn't the only one to think that. I wouldn't think anything deeper of it normally, but then he posted this:

In post 235, Save The Dragons wrote:VOTE: shwinnebago i feel like this drama is coming from scum.

t3 is town i bet. I feel like he would have done something crazy as scum by now. i don't know how accurate that read is but that's what my gut's saying.

i still hate roden's vote on shwinnebago but maybe he's onto something, although with his pussyfooting around voting shwin (going quickly to generalWu) maybe they're partners, that's probably my solve at this point.

catboi feels very solvy, as does navigator.

It's a complete flip on what he thought earlier. It comes off as unnatural which makes me think distancing, especially as he then proceeds to pair me with you. Pairing your scum buddy with a townie creates easy associatives that can then be used to clear your scum buddy if the associated townie gets elim'd first. Additionally, the bit about T3 looks bad in hindsight, and the Nav read looks really fake since Nav never got to post much in the first place.

In post 579, Save The Dragons wrote: town: shwin, catboi, generalwu
null: roden
scum: val, meg

His final reads list makes no sense as a progression. He initially thought you and me were buddies and apparently thought you were more likely to flip scum, but now you're a town read and I'm null, possibly to keep me around as a mis-elim for ELo. He's either your scum buddy or he's pocketing you, but considering your resistance to his wagon I'm inclined to believe the former.

However, there is a world where you're both town and you're actually both getting correctly pinged by Val. And no I don't think there is a fourth option here, after Val's bad push on StD I don't think it's possible for all three of you to be town.

Save The Dragons wrote:hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

I'm not seeing the progression here. This straight up looks like a flail.

If it isn't apparent by now, yes Meg is one of my town reads, tbh my only full town read. I had a scum case on Catboi but only because I thought T3 was flipping scum after the fake Mason claim, my read on Catboi kinda just fell apart after that and now he's just north of null at a slight town lean.

StD Shwinn and Val contain at least one scum between them and I'm confident enough in this read to say this is guaranteed.

This, actually makes Wu a PoE choice for me. If the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn, then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here.

Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

In post 581, Val89 wrote:So, what you are saying is that you saw me, who you think is scum, basically come out of gate on a flimsy case and basically ride it to a mislim D1,

and you sat back and watched it happen

; and decided only to come out now?

In post 586, Val89 wrote:So, for the benefit of the rest of the thread, lets lock it right down - because I know precisely why you have turned your attention to my slot in particular.

Do you, StD, agree 100% there is scum between me and you?

In post 591, Val89 wrote:I'll spell it out for you, once StD answers my question.

I really need you to spell this out and dumb it down for me as much as possible. Because 581 reads as a perspective slip, especially the bit I bolded and underlined.

In post 601, Roden wrote:@Shwinn: Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

Could you explain why you think a scum!Wu means a town!Shwin? Could be interesting.

While you are at it, can you also explain why you consider my push on StD 'bad', if you want to be the hammer on it?

In post 602, Roden wrote:I really need you to spell this out and dumb it down for me as much as possible. Because 581 reads as a perspective slip, especially the bit I bolded and underlined.

I will do, when we get a proper answer from StD as to my 598.

In post 526, Roden wrote:

In post 423, T3 wrote:Look for who was extremely confused at the mason claim and I guarantee you you'll find scum.

Re-reading T3's ISO to try to figure out what the hell happened and this stands out to me now that we know his flip. I think this is where we need to look.

In post 350, GeneralWu wrote:Whoa whoa whoa is this for real?

I think this is the slip. Note that Wu basically became conftown when we thought T3 was scum because there was zero basis for them being partners ever. With T3 turning out to be town and seeing Wu's reaction here, I'm reading this as a faked response to mask confusion over the claim.

In post 603, Val89 wrote:

In post 601, Roden wrote:@Shwinn: Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

Could you explain why you think a scum!Wu means a town!Shwin? Could be interesting.

While you are at it, can you also explain why you consider my push on StD 'bad', if you want to be the hammer on it?

Scum!Wu has to mean town!Shwinn because of the associatives between Shwinn and StD. StD is either partners with Shwinn, pocketing Shwinn, or they're both town and you're scum. And like I said, I don't think there's a fourth option here.

Your push on StD is bad because it happened as Shwinn throws in some resistance to the StD wagon, and is seemingly in direct response to StD's vote on you. Your logic in the push is just objectively flawed and you come off as being sensitive to a single vote on you, which doesn't really vibe with the last game we played where I knew you were town and you reacted differently to votes and pressure. You're generally very composed and logical, even when you came to blows in your TvT with Nancy the things you said still made sense because you believed in them. I don't see that here with this push.

What is my logic in the StD push, Roden?

In post 607, Val89 wrote:What is my logic in the StD push, Roden?

In post 583, shwinnebego wrote:

In post 582, Save The Dragons wrote:no because i didn't know what alignment T3 was

knowing that he's town makes me go hmm

Your logic here makes such obvious sense that I struggle to believe that Val, who is possessed of perfectly adequate cognitive faculties as far as I can tell, is genuinely failing to follow it.

In post 584, shwinnebego wrote:

In post 581, Val89 wrote:So, what you are saying is that you saw me, who you think is scum, basically come out of gate on a flimsy case and basically ride it to a mislim D1, and you sat back and watched it happen; and decided only to come out now?

....We didn't know it was a mislim until T3 flipped. And you know that. Why are you acting like you don't know that?

In post 589, shwinnebego wrote:

In post 586, Val89 wrote: Do you, StD, agree 100% there is scum between me and you?

This question makes no sense. What did StD say that would conceivably suggest that he thinks this?

Val, if you're gambitting what I think you're trying to gambit I highly recommend stopping unless you're committed to your 1v1 on StD.

Those are all quotes from Shwinn, not me. That can't have esacaped your attention.

I am confused, because after you said my push on StD was 'bad', you then said "I really need you to spell this out and dumb it down for me as much as possible.", implying you didn't know what my logic was and wanted it explaining, then I ask you what you think my logic is in why I am pushing StD (and I'm pretty sure I haven't explaned it yet, because I think to do so before StD answers would be premature) you then act as if you know what my logic is, and it's "objectively flawed".

In post 610, Val89 wrote:Those are all quotes from Shwinn, not me. That can't have esacaped your attention.

I am confused, because after you said my push on StD was 'bad', you then said "I really need you to spell this out and dumb it down for me as much as possible.", implying you didn't know what my logic was and wanted it explaining, then I ask you what you think my logic is in why I am pushing StD (and I'm pretty sure I haven't explaned it yet, because I think to do so before StD answers would be premature) you then act as if you know what my logic is, and it's "objectively flawed".

If there's something else to the push you're gonna have to say it. Because right now the logic of your push appears to be that StD's town perspective was that he should've known your case against T3 was bad to begin with and that you purposely got him mis-elim'd. That logically can't be true because StD's case on you was all based on hindsight. If you believe he knew that your case against T3 was bad and that you got him mis-elim'd on purpose, that implies that you're to what he accused you of.

I'm asking you to dumb it down/spell it out because your statement as is implies a perspective slip.

In post 601, Roden wrote:
This, actually makes Wu a PoE choice for me. If the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn, then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here.

@Shwinn:

Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

Appreciate your engagement and so on, but I must say "if the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here" seems like ... an increasingly tenuous series of logical leaps, to the point that the final conclusion you land it appears utterly divorced from reality.

You can't possibly be this certain that catboi and Meg are good.

In post 608, Roden wrote:no because i didn't know what alignment T3 was

knowing that he's town makes me go hmm

Folks, I didn't really thinking I needed to explain in detail why this is crap. I know shwinn came in and said something but I assumed it was scum playacting. Since Roden is also now throwing this around, I guess I'll have to explain.

Until the fakeclaim, StD was openly townreading T3.

In post 91, Save The Dragons wrote:T3 and Navigator seem town to me, still reading the rest of y'all

In post 235, Save The Dragons wrote:t3 is town i bet. I feel like he would have done something crazy as scum by now. i don't know how accurate that read is but that's what my gut's saying.

He did not, perhaps deliberately, give a read on me yesterday.

There are two possibilties, and the question I posed to try and narrow it down that seemed to twig you all was aimed at distigushing between the two.

Either Std was scumreading me yesterday, in which case, as I suggested, he saw someone he thought was scum pushing on someone he thought was town, and decided to say NOTHING about it. I mean, town have decided it would be fun to just straight up throw this game, but what are the chances two townies decide to do that? I think this scenario can be ruled out, and StDs answer seems to imply the second, anyhow.

The other scenario, and the one that StD seems to suggest we are in, is that he was actually townreading me yesterday, and then reconsidered when he say that T3 was in fact, a mislim. I'm going to ask you all to reflect if any of you seriously thought that T3 was going to flip green there, and if so, why you didn't speak up sooner. I think we ALL (with the exception of the 2 scum) expected a red cad there; so StD actual case is "Looking back at it with hindsight, Val started a push on T3 that ended up wrong".

You know, I could possibly buy that that might be grounds for a little bit of suspicion, a reason to start looking at a slot. If we are seriously going to start scumreading anyone who is wrong about anyone, we are in some trouble, but the reason THAT makes no sense in this context is that catboi was ALSO pushing that wagon; as he said himself, there wouldn't have been a T3 wagon without him, and yet, StD says nothing about Catboi, in fact, he gives him a strong townread. If StD was truely re-evaluating postflip, I think catboi would have had to take some flack too - after all, StD has been playing long enough to know it's easier as scum to move forward with a miswagon someone else has started that to invent an entirely original and plausible enough case on a townie to start a wagon from scratch.

In post 612, shwinnebego wrote:

In post 601, Roden wrote:
This, actually makes Wu a PoE choice for me. If the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn, then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here.

@Shwinn:

Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

Appreciate your engagement and so on, but I must say "if the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here" seems like ... an increasingly tenuous series of logical leaps, to the point that the final conclusion you land it appears utterly divorced from reality.

You can't possibly be this certain that catboi and Meg are good.

I've felt good about Meg from the start, and unless you think the exact scenario where StD is scum also has him randomly try to distance himself from scum buddy Meg by voting them, I don't think it's Meg. Do you think you StD and Val are all town? Because I really don't think that's possible, and that's the only way Meg is scum here unless I've wildly misread the game state or town is throwing again.

Catboi I'm less certain on obviously but he's still my town lean. Do you believe the second scum is between Wu and Catboi then?

I'm trying to imagine the town!you perspective and tbh there's no reason to think both StD and Val are partners if Val wants to 1v1 him. Meg should never be today's elim and I'm not sure what your case on them could even be. You've town read me so I assume I'm off the table as well. If you're town then from your perspective I don't see you identifying the second scum as anyone other than being between Wu and Catboi, and Wu actually has a case against them while Catboi does not.

In post 593, shwinnebego wrote:

In post 592, Save The Dragons wrote:hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

If possible, can you explain why you just moved your vote?

Please spell it out plainly if possible, unless you really really think that continuing to post cryptically will benefit town. If you do not do that, then barring someone else explaining to me why your cryptic approach to posting helps town in a sufficiently compelling fashion, I will interpret your actions and cryptic justifications for them as wolfish behavior.

i do not think discussing this benefits the town

In post 596, shwinnebego wrote:

In post 592, Save The Dragons wrote:hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

Specifically, does your vote indicate that Meg is now your top choice for quorum today? If so, would you please tell us why?

i think meg could be scum. mostly for reasons in my big post. i don't like the random post that attacks me but defends shwin without taking into account similarities in our playstyle. meg later goes on to say my playstyle was NAI at best, but if it's NAI, what's scummy about me?

In post 598, Val89 wrote:

In post 592, Save The Dragons wrote:i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

No, come on, StD, do share, what do you wonder about what he was thinking?

Your wall of quotes, which lended itself eventually to denouce my slot as 'likley scum' and result in you voting your slot had 4 qoutes that related to me. 2 of them were from today, asking me to make a case on you, one was my very first RVS post, and the other was that one, a reference navigator made to my slot very very early on. You must have felt it important to make it in to that short list of things you wanted to draw attention to, so come - what specifically about THAT tweaked your interest?

at the time i wondered what he was thinking when he called you out like that. was he concerned about your T3 push? or what? What pinged him about you?

In post 614, Roden wrote:

In post 612, shwinnebego wrote:

In post 601, Roden wrote:
This, actually makes Wu a PoE choice for me. If the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn, then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here.

@Shwinn:

Are you against a Wu vote? I think you're just conftown if Wu flips red.

Appreciate your engagement and so on, but I must say "if the scum pair isn't StD/Shwinn then no matter who the one scum is between the grouped three, Wu always flips red here" seems like ... an increasingly tenuous series of logical leaps, to the point that the final conclusion you land it appears utterly divorced from reality.

You can't possibly be this certain that catboi and Meg are good.

I've felt good about Meg from the start, and unless you think the exact scenario where StD is scum also has him randomly try to distance himself from scum buddy Meg by voting them, I don't think it's Meg. Do you think you StD and Val are all town? Because I really don't think that's possible, and that's the only way Meg is scum here unless I've wildly misread the game state or town is throwing again.

Catboi I'm less certain on obviously but he's still my town lean. Do you believe the second scum is between Wu and Catboi then?

I'm trying to imagine the town!you perspective and tbh there's no reason to think both StD and Val are partners if Val wants to 1v1 him. Meg should never be today's elim and I'm not sure what your case on them could even be. You've town read me so I assume I'm off the table as well. If you're town then from your perspective I don't see you identifying the second scum as anyone other than being between Wu and Catboi, and Wu actually has a case against them while Catboi does not.

Gonna also add that I really don't like that you're trying to include Meg in the sus list as StD tries to push them. This is what I mean by buddying.

In post 600, Roden wrote:Save The Dragons wrote:
hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

I'm not seeing the progression here. This straight up looks like a flail.

i mean i scumread meg, did i not?

In post 619, Save The Dragons wrote:

In post 600, Roden wrote:Save The Dragons wrote:
hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

I'm not seeing the progression here. This straight up looks like a flail.

i mean i scumread meg, did i not?

Meg doesn't show up in your ISO until 579. You had nothing to say on the slot until then, hence the lack of progression.

What happened to your scum read on Wu? I'd think you'd jump on him here considering you actually tried to build a case on him before. I've offered him as a PoE choice and you haven't even said anything about it.

In post 613, Val89 wrote:

In post 608, Roden wrote:no because i didn't know what alignment T3 was

knowing that he's town makes me go hmm

Folks, I didn't really thinking I needed to explain in detail why this is crap. I know shwinn came in and said something but I assumed it was scum playacting. Since Roden is also now throwing this around, I guess I'll have to explain.

Until the fakeclaim, StD was openly townreading T3.

In post 91, Save The Dragons wrote:T3 and Navigator seem town to me, still reading the rest of y'all

In post 235, Save The Dragons wrote:t3 is town i bet. I feel like he would have done something crazy as scum by now. i don't know how accurate that read is but that's what my gut's saying.

He did not, perhaps deliberately, give a read on me yesterday.

There are two possibilties, and the question I posed to try and narrow it down that seemed to twig you all was aimed at distigushing between the two.

Either Std was scumreading me yesterday, in which case, as I suggested, he saw someone he thought was scum pushing on someone he thought was town, and decided to say NOTHING about it. I mean, town have decided it would be fun to just straight up throw this game, but what are the chances two townies decide to do that? I think this scenario can be ruled out, and StDs answer seems to imply the second, anyhow.

The other scenario, and the one that StD seems to suggest we are in, is that he was actually townreading me yesterday, and then reconsidered when he say that T3 was in fact, a mislim. I'm going to ask you all to reflect if any of you seriously thought that T3 was going to flip green there, and if so, why you didn't speak up sooner. I think we ALL (with the exception of the 2 scum) expected a red cad there; so StD actual case is "Looking back at it with hindsight, Val started a push on T3 that ended up wrong".

You know, I could possibly buy that that might be grounds for a little bit of suspicion, a reason to start looking at a slot. If we are seriously going to start scumreading anyone who is wrong about anyone, we are in some trouble, but the reason THAT makes no sense in this context is that catboi was ALSO pushing that wagon; as he said himself, there wouldn't have been a T3 wagon without him, and yet, StD says nothing about Catboi, in fact, he gives him a strong townread. If StD was truely re-evaluating postflip, I think catboi would have had to take some flack too - after all, StD has been playing long enough to know it's easier as scum to move forward with a miswagon someone else has started that to invent an entirely original and plausible enough case on a townie to start a wagon from scratch.

i wasn't scumreading you yesterday. i looked back at the game this morning and decided something you said was scummy. shocking.

i changed my mind though so i guess pushing you worked in that regard.

In post 620, Roden wrote:

In post 619, Save The Dragons wrote:

In post 600, Roden wrote:Save The Dragons wrote:
hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

I'm not seeing the progression here. This straight up looks like a flail.

i mean i scumread meg, did i not?

Meg doesn't show up in your ISO until 579. You had nothing to say on the slot until then, hence the lack of progression.

What happened to your scum read on Wu? I'd think you'd jump on him here considering you actually tried to build a case on him before. I've offered him as a PoE choice and you haven't even said anything about it.

i didn't say much of anything, the progression came when i reread the game this morning and decided to push val and meg.

i changed my mind on wu. call it a gut read but i think wu's town at this point.

In post 613, Val89 wrote:

In post 608, Roden wrote:no because i didn't know what alignment T3 was

knowing that he's town makes me go hmm

Folks, I didn't really thinking I needed to explain in detail why this is crap. I know shwinn came in and said something but I assumed it was scum playacting. Since Roden is also now throwing this around, I guess I'll have to explain.

Until the fakeclaim, StD was openly townreading T3.

In post 91, Save The Dragons wrote:T3 and Navigator seem town to me, still reading the rest of y'all

In post 235, Save The Dragons wrote:t3 is town i bet. I feel like he would have done something crazy as scum by now. i don't know how accurate that read is but that's what my gut's saying.

He did not, perhaps deliberately, give a read on me yesterday.

There are two possibilties, and the question I posed to try and narrow it down that seemed to twig you all was aimed at distigushing between the two.

Either Std was scumreading me yesterday, in which case, as I suggested, he saw someone he thought was scum pushing on someone he thought was town, and decided to say NOTHING about it. I mean, town have decided it would be fun to just straight up throw this game, but what are the chances two townies decide to do that? I think this scenario can be ruled out, and StDs answer seems to imply the second, anyhow.

The other scenario, and the one that StD seems to suggest we are in, is that he was actually townreading me yesterday, and then reconsidered when he say that T3 was in fact, a mislim. I'm going to ask you all to reflect if any of you seriously thought that T3 was going to flip green there, and if so, why you didn't speak up sooner. I think we ALL (with the exception of the 2 scum) expected a red cad there; so StD actual case is "Looking back at it with hindsight, Val started a push on T3 that ended up wrong".

You know, I could possibly buy that that might be grounds for a little bit of suspicion, a reason to start looking at a slot. If we are seriously going to start scumreading anyone who is wrong about anyone, we are in some trouble, but the reason THAT makes no sense in this context is that catboi was ALSO pushing that wagon; as he said himself, there wouldn't have been a T3 wagon without him, and yet, StD says nothing about Catboi, in fact, he gives him a strong townread. If StD was truely re-evaluating postflip, I think catboi would have had to take some flack too - after all, StD has been playing long enough to know it's easier as scum to move forward with a miswagon someone else has started that to invent an entirely original and plausible enough case on a townie to start a wagon from scratch.

I think hedging your case on StD not scum reading you Day 1 or ignoring Catboi for doing the same thing you did you doesn't quite work, because he apparently did the same with Meg. I'm frustrated because I can't tell if he's just keeping his cards close to his chest or if he's just bullshitting all his reads. There's just no legible progression in any of his reads.

In post 622, Save The Dragons wrote:

In post 620, Roden wrote:

In post 619, Save The Dragons wrote:

In post 600, Roden wrote:Save The Dragons wrote:
hmmm. hmm. hhmmmmmmhhhmmm.

i thought it was interesting because i wonder what he was thinking.

VOTE: Meg

I'm not seeing the progression here. This straight up looks like a flail.

i mean i scumread meg, did i not?

Meg doesn't show up in your ISO until 579. You had nothing to say on the slot until then, hence the lack of progression.

What happened to your scum read on Wu? I'd think you'd jump on him here considering you actually tried to build a case on him before. I've offered him as a PoE choice and you haven't even said anything about it.

i didn't say much of anything, the progression came when i reread the game this morning and decided to push val and meg.

i changed my mind on wu. call it a gut read but i think wu's town at this point.

Then what's your read on Catboi?