Nope, doctor is not a killing role, that role block thing only works for killing roles.
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:33 pm
by LlamaFluff
In post 5991, DoctorPepper wrote:I have an open set up I would like to mod when I get to the queue, can anyone give me their thoughts on its plausibility or imbalance or anything?
Vigilante Justice
7 1-shot vigilantes
1 1-shot bulletproof mafia godfather
1 mafia goon
1 1-shot bulletproof werewolf leader
1 werewolf goon
1 3-shot serial killer
1 sane doctor
1 naive doctor - will fail to protect target
Special Rules
1. Mafia can only kill on odd numbered nights, Werewolves can only kill on even numbered nights
2. A killing role who was targeted by another killing role will not have a successful kill and will die instead. (i.e. if player A targets player B, player B targets player C and player C targets player D, only player B will die)
3. If two or more vigilantes target the same person, the vig kill will not work but target will still be susceptible to factional or serial kills. Likewise, if the mafia or the werewolf and the serial killer target the same person, the factional kills will fail but the vigilante kill will still be effective.
4. If two killing roles target each other, neither will die
5. Doctors will not be told of their effectiveness
6. Werewolf leader and Mafia Godfather can only make factional kills when their goons have died
D1 vig claims, lynch as normal but have three non-doc players chosen by town forceably target vig. That vig will live, any "vig" who didn't die is confirmed scum. Its getting to the semi-game breaking stage of things if you are calling scum a killing role.
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:35 am
by DoctorPepper
So if I restrict it to vigs, will it be okay?
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:01 am
by Cheery Dog
In post 6001, LlamaFluff wrote:D1 vig claims, lynch as normal but have three non-doc players chosen by town forceably target vig. That vig will live, any "vig" who didn't die is confirmed scum. Its getting to the semi-game breaking stage of things if you are calling scum a killing role.
Don't you mean that if that vig dies, one of the 3 is confirmed scum? (or one is confirmed vig?) The game breaking strategy would need a bit more work than just that.
(though them living would confirm the 3 targetting to either all be town or all scum)
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:09 am
by JasonWazza
Cheery Dog wrote:
In post 6001, LlamaFluff wrote:D1 vig claims, lynch as normal but have three non-doc players chosen by town forceably target vig. That vig will live, any "vig" who didn't die is confirmed scum. Its getting to the semi-game breaking stage of things if you are calling scum a killing role.
Don't you mean that if that vig dies, one of the 3 is confirmed scum? (or one is confirmed vig?) The game breaking strategy would need a bit more work than just that.
(though them living would confirm the 3 targetting to either all be town or all scum)
No because of the odd/even night rule.
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:10 am
by JasonWazza
And no way to trace the targeting.
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:00 pm
by LlamaFluff
Well from what I could tell if we do something like
A->D
B->D
C->D
D (vig) takes no action...
We end with A B and C dead and D alive. This would confirm D town and any of ABC being scum (who wouldn't kill) are all going to be alive. Im not sure how much it breaks but I think there are going to be ways to start trying to game the setup.
Im going to be making another push for setups so will go through things. For those who have the time and prospective setups I encourage you to run them during marathon.
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:11 pm
by DoctorPepper
Actually with that We'd only see B die.
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:04 pm
by Cheery Dog
I can't see where they're treated like hiders. As far as my reading is, they're roleblockers, which if not roleblocked kill.
Why would B die there?
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:26 pm
by LlamaFluff
Im not quite getting it then...
Are scum "killing roles"?
Also there is the problem that there are five anti-town roles to 9 town roles.
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:36 pm
by DoctorPepper
Well I have seen games like Cheery's Vengeball with 4 scum and 5 town.
I guess you can count them as killing roles.
The sequence goes like this. C targets D, B targets C, and A targets B. C is blocked because he is targetted. B is blocked because he is targetted. Only B dies.
Hmm I guess if I restrict it to vigs, and D doesnt die, they are all conf town. Likewise, if D dies, then one of three is conf scum. I guess it could be "If 2 or more killing roles target D, then D doesnt die" so it isn limited to pro town vigs
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:28 am
by quadz08
In post 6010, DoctorPepper wrote:Well I have seen games like Cheery's Vengeball with 4 scum and 5 town.
I guess you can count them as killing roles.
The sequence goes like this. C targets D, B targets C, and A targets B. C is blocked because he is targetted. B is blocked because he is targetted. Only B dies.
Yes, SK and Scum are killing roles
That only works because of the special vengeful rules (no NK, instaloss upon GF lynch)
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:42 am
by LlamaFluff
I still think the scum:town ratio is a bit much.
Even if we get generous and assume both scum goons die N1 and N2 (they would have to if they are getting vigged?) and only two town get NKed in that time, we are probably looking at about probably around a 5:1:1 on most cases. Worse than that quite a bit. It probably needs to get one of the factions removed. Even then im not sure its going to balance well because of the number of vigs.
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:08 am
by DoctorPepper
I needed to find a way to balance the scum to vig thing.
Well If I cant figure out how this would be fixed, I cant run it
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:10 am
by LlamaFluff
The problem is anything with a large number of killing roles (Texas Justice, Fight or Flight are two off the top of my head) have been broken mid-game.
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:22 am
by LlamaFluff
Bumping this one because I think it has potential after thinking about it for awhile.
Similar to Carbon 14, but both cops are useful. Just differently useful. Vanilla Cop is more powerful obviously. Maybe make Godfather variate with a Goon?
Edit:
Playing around with a Friends and Enemies...
Enemy of My Enemy
9x Vanilla
--
1x Mafia Goon
1x Mafia Amnesic Seer (Targets X and result goes to Y - both chosen)
--
1x Wolf Goon
1x Wolf Amnesic Cop (Targets X and result goes to Y - both chosen)
Basically playing the scum against eachother. Wolf can find mafia. Mafia can find wolf. Can either pass the results to their partner, give results on their partner, lots of room for different plans of attack.
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:38 am
by Grimgroove
Sorry, but what is a vanilla cop? Can't find it in wiki.
3 Masons
1 Encyrptor (Gives both Mafia and Masons day talk)
6 Vanilla Townis
3 Goons
(Yes I know its just F and E with an Encyptor but sshs...)
This probably about works because as it stands F&E is a slight town lean. It would be interesting to see if this is a good way to solve that. My only fear is you are creating a named townie as well so I would be on the fence of keeping it at 6VT or dropping it to 5.
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:20 am
by JacobSavage
Although its a named townie it can actually hamper the town somewhat:
For example if all the masons par one of the masons are dead do you lynch the Encryptor to deprive the mafia of an advantage for the exchange of a mislynch.
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:37 am
by LlamaFluff
Well you never lynch the uncounterclaimed encryptor because they would be confirmed town.
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:41 pm
by JacobSavage
But they'd also give a HUGE advantage to the scums...
E: Although by the time that happens the town is pretty screwed anway...