Flavor Leaf vs. Hectic [Game Over]

[Chara]

VOTE: Catboi

Might as well just kill the vanilla. Gives Glory a track. I probably won't be listening to too many role interactions or care. Guilties arent trust worthy nor are innos, so

if you're not trusting the mech, then when do we keep deciding eliminations based on claims?

[Chara]

meh
UNVOTE:

you feel like kitty's criticisms could come from town?

[Venus Mars and Pluto]

I really dont feel like arguing about it with her chara

if you want my fuller take, i see now skitts did actively push Dann at one point end of D1 and although she had posts that were hesistant, she never actually tried to block it like Venus did. So it's not really hypocritical anyway. But again, it doesnt really matter for me to talk about i dont think it helps

Are you intentionally missing my point or what? I made it more than abundantly clear that wasn’t even my issue. This is starting to piss me off.

[Morning Tweet]

Your point that she is using the other VC rather than your unwnd one doesnt work for me either. are there any others im missing?

[Chara]

Skitter is very clearly trying to help fuel my doubts on Dann!scum - intentionally or unintentionally but does it make sense to anyone that she’d nevertheless sr me for trying to derail it after she made those comments?

[Venus Mars and Pluto]

Your point that she is using the other VC rather than your unwnd one doesnt work for me either. are there any others im missing?

I don’t have an issue with her hesitancy in itself but I fucking well do with the hypocrisy of sr me for being influenced by it. I had better disengage because I’m getting really irritated. This post as well because I feel like you’re just dismissing everything I’m saying and I already explained that.

I would be fine if you actually tried to debunk my points but I just feel that they’re all legit and don’t deserved to be summarily dismissed this way.

[Morning Tweet]

I see, so Venus feels that skitts' hesitation was a cause for them trying to block the Dann wagon, so it is odd for skitts to turn around and suspect Venus for going along with what skitts said?

fl u sure u wanna end on dannflor?

fl u sure u wanna end on dannflor?

Are you having doubts on your read of him or did you agree with me when you clicked that link?

I'm having doubts abt the consensus formed on him

And then there’s this. Nothing about either of these posts by themselves is suspicious, what clearly is her her sr me for trying to stop his wagon.

In this quote at least, it would appear that her first post (2493) was generalized, and then the second was her replying to Venus engaging her first. Venus implies in 2495 that she is curious abt whether skitts was agreeing with her townread on Dann or not -- to which, skitts replies she simply has her own doubts.

So Venus' hard tr on dann was before this interaction, skitts makes no mention of Venus before then, and Venus is the one who reached out to skitts first here

Yeah I think I'm still missing it i think. I'm sorry

[Venus Mars and Pluto]

fl u sure u wanna end on dannflor?

Are you having doubts on your read of him or did you agree with me when you clicked that link?

I'm having doubts abt the consensus formed on him

[Morning Tweet]

So skitts wasn't the cause, but skitts was pouring fuel on the flames. To that I would say, that's not really necessary for scum!skitts to do. Also, Dann was pretty dead at this point of the day I think. So I would ask, why does skitts do this?

But i suppose the point is that skitts "fueled" your doubts, and then scumread you later for your doubts/tr on dann. To that I would say i think it is unlikely skitts intentionally tried to get you to doubt Dann, especially considering you were already townreading him a lot prior

[Morning Tweet]

(reading catboi 6012 into 2848)

I'm not the biggest fan of catboi but I doesn't seem like anyone really shares that opinion

honestly I mostly want to vote Titus right now

I'm interested in scum reads on Morning Tweet because I don't really see anything that sticks out as not within town!Tweet's MO

i had no idea Dann was so familiar with my town!MO. Seeing this (from catboi's 2848) makes me realize i missed almost every single dann post D1

Now what id like to figure out is if catboi is genuinely reading Dann interactions, or if he's scum with Dann and knows exactly what interactions Dann was trying to force so he's using them. A little bit late, i think catboi made that post like D2, but yeah

Catboi's idea is that Dannflor fell behind and overwhelmed by suspicions fast, so he had to turn on the anti-associative mode prematurely. Okay

Spoiler:

I see the post where Dann fixates a lot on me (1572) and Titus (1574). Dann only had 2 votes at the time, though, and it comes across to me like he was in the middle of catching up possibly from front -> back since he replied to recent stuff first. Chara was still public enemy #1 around here, it was reflected in the VCs too. i think it's a stretch to say he went full anti-associative already but the i can buy thinking the fixation is odd

gives a light townlean to Gamma in 1581, he continues talking abt me and my vote in 1585 (this is the "fencesitty" one that catboi mentioned), there's still no heat on dann though this was next page. Let me just find the point where Dann probably knows he's dead

Oh it's not much further. Skitts and Star vote Dann on page 65 and FL gives it his approval to end the day on (a classic manuever by him that i've experienced twice now), xtoxm joins. Dann definitely knows he's in trouble now. I don't think he would have immediately been playing for anti associatives up til this point though -- there was no indictation that he was gonna die really, perhaps I've missed it though.

1630 is his first reaction to it (voting chkflip). I think here and onwards is plausible, at least for me that is definitely where i'd realize im going down and do whatever i wanna do.

[!] The attention has been deflected away from Dannflor again. FL changes the plan to killing a member of Dann's wagon or Dann. Dann's got a chance still, in fact he just has to be better than 1 out of 5 other players to survive. He does still have 5 votes on him at this point, of course, so not great but i dont think Dann resigned himself to die

He comes back and votes unwnd (1846) and goes kinda hard (1874) relative to the rest of his pushes anyway. He townreads Nancy and gains their townread lul, keeps arguing for a townread there for a while whatever. This was around the Venus scumslip so thats a distraction

Here's a couple fun ones: the vague yikes at skitts (1939) and questioning why im a scumread (1942). Oh the yikes was at skitts voting him lol. Anyway is there a lot of pressure on Dann, yeah but he is in no way dead yet

im noticing a pattern where he slight townleans ppl receiving the most suspicion at the time though (morning and venus)

Dann then naked votes me though. This was right after Hop expressed a scumread on me, and then Hop joins. Then Chara wagon with skitts/Hop happens. FL is still not directing it anywhere yet

Gamma adds onto Dann but then Venus townreads Dann and skitts scumreads me.

Oh Dann is done posting. So there

Not to kill the funtime vibes, but I went through Dannflor's ISO to scrape for any sort of interactions, and this is what I came away with. My theory is that Dann made a few posts when the ame was in an RVS-ish state, fell behind, and came back realizing he was under pressure and in trouble, and so deliberately started forcing interactions. I also think scum are more likely to have voteparked Dann rather than defend him after FL publicly voiced suspicion, it's too risky to have moved off. I'm not saying Dann interacted with all of his teammates, In fact I'd say for sure there's a scum in the people he didn't really interact with at all, but right now it's easier for me to look at the info on people he DID interact with.

I don't think Dann messed with his interactions an abnormal amount, so this theory sounds good but doesnt seem true. I suppose given Titus and me being town, I could have already known that, but whatever. Now what's more important is whether or not catboi came to this c conclusion as a result of reading through Dann rather than through malicious intent -- I have two thoughts

On one hand, I do not think that Dann was intentionally messing with his interactions a ton -- he was never under guaranteed kill pressure. Honestly, the stuff he got i think could actually be less than what ive gotten at times. And what skitts has got. And so on. I think if he were manipulating his interactions, then scum!catboi would be in a better place to know how to exploit that. i dont think that has happened though

However, i do think the naked vote on me after only questioning SRs on me was out of place. I was not a wagon at the time. He had no build up. The only thing that triggered it probably was Hop vocally suspecting me so much prior. So i can reasonably buy that seeming like just a really strange interaction. Also, catboi feels scum was likely to votepark Dann due to a fear of looking back down the line, which is what i did. I think I can reasonably buy that catboi believes in this theory. I dont think this was orchestrated by dann-catboi, if catboi is scum this was done in retrospect

MMm I can reasonably buy the read on me, I guess that doesn't make catboi town by default but it's a start. If we wanna talk catboi reads then we can think about what's more likely: Hectic is informed there are 2 VTs, or Hectic is informed there is 1 VT and instructs (or catboi decides) to instaclaim it (this was about 5-10 minutes after FL called for it). at a glance that seems like a good way to throw unnecessary suspicion his way while also making the miselim low stakes for town. it is also possibly worth noting that catboi claimed at 5 A.M in london so i hope for his sake that hectic wasn't awake at the time, so it'd have to have been pre coordinated, which I suppose is possible but is also a lot less simple than catboi just claiming it

JUST READ THIS PART ///

This post maybe doesnt lay it out so well but i think catboi is town, anyway. i think the way he has read me (and had read titus) is fair, it is reasonable to think that Dann goes anti-associative since he did have a great amount of pressure, but actually around the areas where he posted there were always 27,000 different things going on -- I think he did not know he was dead, that i feel pretty good on at least. the vote on me strikes me as very odd although i do think it was a serious attempt at killing me since there was quite a lot of suspicion there, I was a voter of him (which FL wanted to kill in), and Hop just laid out a bunch of reasons to suspect me as well. And then Chara was getting attacked before and after his posts too! But I think catboi additionally thinking scum voteparks Dann, plus me being strange, it just makes a lot more sense as a genuine scumread than something Dann did intentionally for catboi to point out.

Fully prepared to look stupid if catboi is scum though >x< The read on me making sense, thinking dann was doing anti's makes sense. And I dont think there was collusion between him and cat because i dont think dann was *actually* thinking he dies there for certain, he could have gotten me thrown out and i think that was his intention. okay im done

I don't have someone that I really want to direct the elimination to so /shrug

[Venus Mars and Pluto]

I see, so Venus feels that skitts' hesitation was a cause for them trying to block the Dann wagon, so it is odd for skitts to turn around and suspect Venus for going along with what skitts said?

fl u sure u wanna end on dannflor?

fl u sure u wanna end on dannflor?

Are you having doubts on your read of him or did you agree with me when you clicked that link?

I'm having doubts abt the consensus formed on him

And then there’s this. Nothing about either of these posts by themselves is suspicious, what clearly is her her sr me for trying to stop his wagon.

In this quote at least, it would appear that her first post (2493) was generalized, and then the second was her replying to Venus engaging her first. Venus implies in 2495 that she is curious abt whether skitts was agreeing with her townread on Dann or not -- to which, skitts replies she simply has her own doubts.

So Venus' hard tr on dann was before this interaction, skitts makes no mention of Venus before then, and Venus is the one who reached out to skitts first here

Yeah I think I'm still missing it i think. I'm sorry

Yes, this is my point. Chk obviously also heavily influenced my read because he was so insistent - yet another reason it makes 0 sense.

I just find it disingenuous for someone who was actively hesitant on voting Dann, using that as a reason to sr me. I also feel that posting the vc while I was voting you but neglecting the final one was an obvious attempt to shade me unfairly.

But it’s the combo of those two things that is weirding me our more than anything else, to be clear.

Does she think I’m scum for trying to stupidly derail Dann or for being on Tweetie the 2nd to final vc. Sr me for BOTH of these things isn’t adding up for me.

[Venus Mars and Pluto]

So skitts wasn't the cause, but skitts was pouring fuel on the flames. To that I would say, that's not really necessary for scum!skitts to do. Also, Dann was pretty dead at this point of the day I think. So I would ask, why does skitts do this?

But i suppose the point is that skitts "fueled" your doubts, and then scumread you later for your doubts/tr on dann. To that I would say i think it is unlikely skitts intentionally tried to get you to doubt Dann, especially considering you were already townreading him a lot prior

Once again, that wasn’t my point.

[Flavor Leaf]

like come on at least try to sort skitter and chara
you're not going to get better at sorting them if you don't try christ

in what world can you honestly believe I haven't put more time into anyone in this game sorting those 2 slots specifically. They were the basis of my day 1.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL on the surface this feels like ur just not putting in work

Yeah, my invisible powers >everything else

[Flavor Leaf]

catboi's last string of posts are scummy, let's ring it up

[Flavor Leaf]

and frankly, Alisae, I am sorting them, I think they are both town, and im here to prove it with the mech stuff.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Catboi

Might as well just kill the vanilla. Gives Glory a track. I probably won't be listening to too many role interactions or care. Guilties arent trust worthy nor are innos, so

if you're not trusting the mech, then when do we keep deciding eliminations based on claims?

you guys should be knowing by now it's more than that. i don't fade anyone based on a single reason alone

[catboi]

K

[Morning Tweet]

I just find it disingenuous for someone who was actively hesitant on voting Dann, using that as a reason to sr me. I also feel that posting the vc while I was voting you but neglecting the final one was an obvious attempt to shade me unfairly.

But it’s the combo of those two things that is weirding me our more than anything else, to be clear.

Does she think I’m scum for trying to stupidly derail Dann or for being on Tweetie the 2nd to final vc. Sr me for BOTH of these things isn’t adding up for me.

Oh, so I did understand i think. I have understood these two points from the beginning and I disagree with both. Skitts own read on Dann should not bar her from being able to suspect other players who defended Dann.

I see that she is using it as a reason to scumread you

and i get that's the point, right? Not that she isnt allowed to scumread you, but that she is using it as a reason. In my opinion she still can because i think your defense of Dann was a lot more substantial than hers, and if she scumreads that, then she scumreads that. Skitts didnt actively try to switch the wagon at that phase of that game, and that is the reason she is using against you.

and I believe that the VC she posted was the correct one. She wanted to highlight my wagon, and she did. Why would she use the one without you on it? It doesnt make sense. the whole point is to show why she thinks I might be town -- because her scumreads (including you) were voting me! If she quoted the end of day VC, then that does not help her point. In a way, yes she is shading you kind of. But she already thinks you are scum and she is using that wagon to illustrate a greater point about her scumreads voting me on D1, so that only makes sense

I understand your reasoning if this is it summed up. i just disagree and i felt like we probably wouldnt see eye to eye on it. i'm sorry if i sounded dismissal i just felt like it wouldnt help either of us, cause i think skitts can be scum or town still anyway

[Morning Tweet]

godspeed catboi

[Venus Mars and Pluto]

like come on at least try to sort skitter and chara
you're not going to get better at sorting them if you don't try christ

in what world can you honestly believe I haven't put more time into anyone in this game sorting those 2 slots specifically. They were the basis of my day 1.

I think G & M is town. I really don’t see why they make #6002 as scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

doesn't mean their reads are right

[Venus Mars and Pluto]

K

@FL is this how scum usually respond?

[Flavor Leaf]

you're right, that is a scummy response

[Venus Mars and Pluto]

doesn't mean their reads are right

I never said they were. I agree with Auro and Fire, I don’t think catboi is flipping scum.