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Post Post #6175 (ISO) » Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:39 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 6165, Gloria Cleary wrote:so don’t tell me this setup wasn’t ridiculously townsided.
Oh I absolutely can and will say the setup isn't ridiculously townsided.

The game is, loosely, balanced, maybe slightly townsided:
Drop the informed townie (it's not needed for the town and doesn't add much), add a very slight gate to the vig (say, 4x vig), and the game is instantly balanced.

That's literally the only adjustments needed.

An almost full-powered vig, and removing one mostly-worthless role.

Alien as a scum role, in tandem with the mafia nightkill, is genuinely one of the strongest role combos possible. Keep in mind also, the ascetic alien can potentially also cause a false innocent on the goons by rolestopping them. Strongwilled prevents roleblockers from succeeding; it doesn't necessarily puncture through a rolestop. (At least in the NRG, we're moving towards rolestops acting like asceticizers, with ascetics not acting the same as a roleblocker.)

If a strong-willed role fails on a rolestopped target (which per the NRG it should, I believe), then your alien could effectively Godfatherize your goons.

So if the alien protected a goon (which it did!), that's immunity to not only the vig but ALSO the cop.
Sure, you can't kill the player alien'd. But alien can be used offensively or defensively and is tremendously strong at both.
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Post Post #6176 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:22 am

Post by MURDERCAT »

In post 6173, Gloria Cleary wrote:Well, while I’m not obvtown in every game, more often in most larges which I on whole suck at, not. if you want an example of bleeding obvtown me, ISO me in Royalty. I was off the charts obvtown in that, much more so than in Death Curse imo.
You were prettyyy obv town in death curse we just had like 8 miselims to spare
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Post Post #6177 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:12 am

Post by Titus »

@Mastina- According to the wiki, alien is an upgraded form of jk. I made the goon cop strongwilled because I didn't want the godfather interaction given pichu could clear no one and only hit right on 2 of 17 slots.
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Post Post #6178 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:54 am

Post by Noraa »

In post 6164, Gloria Cleary wrote:Well, you’ll live much longer in all of your games if you stop doing the fake stuff. I rarely fake anything, whether it be AtE, derping, etc. I try to stick as close to the truth as possible with of course the exception of obviously not telling the truth about my alignment.

But you started getting a lot townier mid to late game, so if you can start off that way, you’ll be golden.

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed having you for a hydra partner. Next time I want us to not only be town but the most obvious townie in the playerlist.
Tis difficult. I have a hard time being natural in plists like this. Straight off the bat, I'm already scared and that fucks stuff up :cry:

we'll be really obvtown in our next town game :P
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Post Post #6179 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:54 am

Post by Noraa »

I enjoyed being ur hydra buddy too :D
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Post Post #6180 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:56 am

Post by Noraa »

In post 6169, Ircher wrote:
In post 325, Gloria Cleary wrote:You’re doing awesome Noraa. Next time you’re scum and hopefully the RNG gods will finally cut you a break and you won’t be for a long time after this - tell your scumteam not to hardbus you D1 if ever, seriously. I think that’s the REAL reason you guys lost, because of all of the associatives literally tying you to your buddies.
I think this is a good take. Some players have a naturally "scummy" meta and get suspected almost every Day 1. (That just so happens to be often the case for me.) But the thing is, those same players can sometimes also be the hardest players to lim. Anyway, Noraa had a strong early game here imo, and I also think she matches the description I wrote above. That would make her well suited for making it deep into games when she is scum, so bussing her early doesn't seem a very good strategy.
Gloria says this because of Death Curse. I was wagoned early and my buddies bussed too hard. When I became the last scum standing, the associatives were damning and I died in F2.
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Post Post #6181 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:57 am

Post by Noraa »

In post 6170, Gloria Cleary wrote:There is a joyful happiness that exudes from her posting like summer rain.
I actually think this applies to my town game sometimes. There are specific moment where I will be extremely extremely happy.
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Post Post #6182 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:58 am

Post by Noraa »

:P here:
In post 4189, Noraa wrote:IM CONFTOWN.
HIHIHIHIHIHIHIHIHIIHIHIHIHI
In post 4190, Noraa wrote:HEHE
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Post Post #6183 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:41 am

Post by Toogeloo »

I cleaned up my wiki a bit, but I'm still garbage at knowing how to format and making it look pretty.
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Post Post #6184 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:43 am

Post by Toogeloo »

I guess I never realized how good my win percentage as Mafia-Aligned is lol.
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Post Post #6185 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:46 am

Post by NorwegianboyEE »

Oh that explains Mastina paranoia on you.
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Post Post #6186 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:53 am

Post by Noraa »

In post 6183, Toogeloo wrote:I cleaned up my wiki a bit, but I'm still garbage at knowing how to format and making it look pretty.
goddamn that wiki O_O
im officially scared of you.
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Post Post #6187 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:27 pm

Post by Ircher »

Spoiler: Some more thoughts on the setup
I'm spoilering this because I imagine some people don't really want to wade through more setup talk. Anyway, I've thought about it some more, and I still think that's it's reasonably balanced, but not without flaws. It definitely leans a bit on the townsided side of things, but not overtly so.

I think there are two fundamental issues or flaws with this setup. The first is that there are a high number of roles that are "town by claim". The vig, doc, masons, and the Supersaint Enabler (after the Supersaint flips) are all roles that basically aren't likely to be doubted after they claim. This can lead to scum being frustrated even when they kill PR after PR because it essentially means they are boxed into killing these people and not who they want. I think this is a design issue more than a balance issue, but it is true that one has to be careful about having too many of these kinds of roles in a non-role madness game. I had this issue in a game that I tried to run once (see here), but thankfully, my reviewers were well aware of this issue. Notably, that just as adding mafia makes the setup exponentially more scumsided, the same is true for town when adding more confirmed townies. With pseudo-confirmed-town-by-claiming roles, it's a lesser issue but still one to think about. Now, in the setup I linked, it was kind of overt, but the same principle applies; you don't want to give town top many roles that will in essence force the mafia's hand.

Now, the other main flaw with the setup is the Supersaint Enabler. As I stated earlier, I do think the Supersaint changes up the game enough where town probably should have some kind of indicator that it exists. That indicator doesn't necessarily have to be at the beginning of the game, but at the same time, it can't come too late. The main issue here though, and it relates back to my first observation, is that by making the Supersaint Enabler a separate role, it is basically free information for the town, AND likely leads to the role being seen as town, especially when it's known that scum chose their roles. (Why would scum /EVER/ pick Supersaint Enabler as one of their roles, especially with an actual Supersaint?) Thus, the way to solve this (at least imo) is to tie the information to a role that doesn't want to attract a night kill. In this setup, that means either the vig or the doctor should have the info/role tacked on.

So with all that said, I think a more balanced (and less frustrating setup for scum) would probably look something like this:

3x Town Mason + Town 3-Shot Vigilante Supersaint Enabler + Town Roaming Doctor + Town Strong-Willed Disloyal Simple Vanilla Cop + 7x VTs versus Mafia Ascetic Multitasking Alien + Mafia Supersaint + 2x Mafia Goon

Putting the enabler on the vig means that the vig has to weigh outing the info (and attracting the night kill) versus keeping it quiet and having town risk triggering the Supersaint. It also serves as a swing reducer in that if the vig dies early (as most of the game's power is in the masons and the vigilante), scum loses one of their powers as a tradeoff. 3-Shot Vigilante also seems to me like the proper amount; full vigilante would be too much (as it proved here) whereas one or two shot is far too few (as town doesn't have much power elsewhere). 3 or 4 shots seems about the right number; I went with 3 here because the current trend is to lean a bit more scumsided than townsided. The informed townie was dropped because in a setup where there is already a strong mason bloc, it's probably better not to give town too many extra roles (even if they are alignment neutral) just to ensure you don't run into the first issue I mentioned.

One other note: I said it before, but I would like to repeat it: the cigilante played very well here even despite the fact that what has happened might make you think otherwise. A good vigilante shoots players that are liabilities to the town win condition; by shooting two such liabilities this game, we (the town) gained a mislim that would've otherwise been wasted on one of those two. Context is very important in evaluating the quality of a vigilante's shots.


Aside from the above, the scum pt was a fun read, and I enjoyed playing with y'all. Thanks again for modding, Blade Dancer.
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Post Post #6188 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:14 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6181, Noraa wrote:
In post 6170, Gloria Cleary wrote:There is a joyful happiness that exudes from her posting like summer rain.
I actually think this applies to my town game sometimes. There are specific moment where I will be extremely extremely happy.
:lol: Idk who posted this but twasn’t me. Yeah overly dramatic posts from you like Murder quoted:

VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: . Like that one read fake especially to anyone remotely familiar with your meta. Your town meta otoh you come across extremely natural, questioning and genuinely solvey. Like you said, when you’re scum, you let your nerves influence your posting. I learned that if you’re possibly inclined to do that ever, just don’t post until that goes away. I make my dumbest posts as scum when I get nervous. Because as town, you generally have little to actually be nervous about beyond limming correctly. So irrespective of alignment, excessive nervousness will get you scumread.
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Post Post #6189 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:19 pm

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6187, Ircher wrote:
Spoiler: Some more thoughts on the setup
I'm spoilering this because I imagine some people don't really want to wade through more setup talk. Anyway, I've thought about it some more, and I still think that's it's reasonably balanced, but not without flaws. It definitely leans a bit on the townsided side of things, but not overtly so.

I think there are two fundamental issues or flaws with this setup. The first is that there are a high number of roles that are "town by claim". The vig, doc, masons, and the Supersaint Enabler (after the Supersaint flips) are all roles that basically aren't likely to be doubted after they claim. This can lead to scum being frustrated even when they kill PR after PR because it essentially means they are boxed into killing these people and not who they want. I think this is a design issue more than a balance issue, but it is true that one has to be careful about having too many of these kinds of roles in a non-role madness game. I had this issue in a game that I tried to run once (see here), but thankfully, my reviewers were well aware of this issue. Notably, that just as adding mafia makes the setup exponentially more scumsided, the same is true for town when adding more confirmed townies. With pseudo-confirmed-town-by-claiming roles, it's a lesser issue but still one to think about. Now, in the setup I linked, it was kind of overt, but the same principle applies; you don't want to give town top many roles that will in essence force the mafia's hand.

Now, the other main flaw with the setup is the Supersaint Enabler. As I stated earlier, I do think the Supersaint changes up the game enough where town probably should have some kind of indicator that it exists. That indicator doesn't necessarily have to be at the beginning of the game, but at the same time, it can't come too late. The main issue here though, and it relates back to my first observation, is that by making the Supersaint Enabler a separate role, it is basically free information for the town, AND likely leads to the role being seen as town, especially when it's known that scum chose their roles. (Why would scum /EVER/ pick Supersaint Enabler as one of their roles, especially with an actual Supersaint?) Thus, the way to solve this (at least imo) is to tie the information to a role that doesn't want to attract a night kill. In this setup, that means either the vig or the doctor should have the info/role tacked on.

So with all that said, I think a more balanced (and less frustrating setup for scum) would probably look something like this:

3x Town Mason + Town 3-Shot Vigilante Supersaint Enabler + Town Roaming Doctor + Town Strong-Willed Disloyal Simple Vanilla Cop + 7x VTs versus Mafia Ascetic Multitasking Alien + Mafia Supersaint + 2x Mafia Goon

Putting the enabler on the vig means that the vig has to weigh outing the info (and attracting the night kill) versus keeping it quiet and having town risk triggering the Supersaint. It also serves as a swing reducer in that if the vig dies early (as most of the game's power is in the masons and the vigilante), scum loses one of their powers as a tradeoff. 3-Shot Vigilante also seems to me like the proper amount; full vigilante would be too much (as it proved here) whereas one or two shot is far too few (as town doesn't have much power elsewhere). 3 or 4 shots seems about the right number; I went with 3 here because the current trend is to lean a bit more scumsided than townsided. The informed townie was dropped because in a setup where there is already a strong mason bloc, it's probably better not to give town too many extra roles (even if they are alignment neutral) just to ensure you don't run into the first issue I mentioned.

One other note: I said it before, but I would like to repeat it: the cigilante played very well here even despite the fact that what has happened might make you think otherwise. A good vigilante shoots players that are liabilities to the town win condition; by shooting two such liabilities this game, we (the town) gained a mislim that would've otherwise been wasted on one of those two. Context is very important in evaluating the quality of a vigilante's shots.


Aside from the above, the scum pt was a fun read, and I enjoyed playing with y'all. Thanks again for modding, Blade Dancer.
+1

Thanks for this. Yeah Solstice’s claim got them confitown read because it’s so beyond obvious that’s never a scum role and no one would ever fakeclaim it as one. That completely ruined our entire supersaint gambit. We never probably would have even been screwed by the Toog vig if it weren’t for that.
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Post Post #6190 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:09 am

Post by Flavor Leaf »

In post 6175, mastina wrote:So if the alien protected a goon (which it did!), that's immunity to not only the vig but ALSO the cop.
this just really shows that we were like that on top of it, and still came to this. While we might have the scum salt with it, I think you have the inverted with that when town think it's less townsided than it is.

I don't think it's ridiculously townsided, but townsided nonetheless in enough where it's okay to see it that way. Town still played well.
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Post Post #6191 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:13 am

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

I think the key swing moment was post dunnstral flip when it was clear Ydrasse would shoot DEB at night.

The scum team should've anticipated a vig of DEB by Ydrasse and shot Ydrasse / Aliened DEB. It would've accomplished three things:

(1) It is demoralizing for the town to not only lose the vig but see DEB alive.

(2) It keeps the game on evens - maintaining the mis-elim oppurtunity on Toogeloo

(3) It keeps Alisae Hydra alive, which went into the night after Dunnstral flip absolutely convinced that Mastina was scum.
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Post Post #6192 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:27 am

Post by Alisae »

I mean they have no way to know 3 but even if 3 is true that doesn't really change anything tbh.
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Post Post #6193 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:28 am

Post by Noraa »

We were worried ydra would do a hero shot on spiff
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Post Post #6194 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:29 am

Post by Noraa »

It's the Mush thought process.

Spiff is more dangerous than DEB. Even if DEB survives 1 say 2 more days, he's not a threat to town cuz he's confscum.
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Post Post #6195 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:31 am

Post by Alisae »

I mean if I was the vig in that scenario I would always try to shoot not DEB but someone else.
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Post Post #6196 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:39 am

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6191, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:I think the key swing moment was post dunnstral flip when it was clear Ydrasse would shoot DEB at night.

The scum team should've anticipated a vig of DEB by Ydrasse and shot Ydrasse / Aliened DEB. It would've accomplished three things:

(1) It is demoralizing for the town to not only lose the vig but see DEB alive.

(2) It keeps the game on evens - maintaining the mis-elim oppurtunity on Toogeloo

(3) It keeps Alisae Hydra alive, which went into the night after Dunnstral flip absolutely convinced that Mastina was scum.
Read the scum PT. I tried really hard to make that happen - kill Ydrasse but my team was no, it will look bad if we don’t kill a mason first. \_0_/

If I was scum stump, that’s exactly what would have happened.
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Post Post #6197 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:41 am

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6193, Noraa wrote:We were worried ydra would do a hero shot on spiff
No, I was extremely confident she would not shoot Spiff but wasn’t sure she wouldn’t kill us.
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Post Post #6198 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:48 am

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 1417, Gloria Cleary wrote:I think we should both jk and kill Ydrasse. Here’s why: she is as certain we’re scum as Hectic was on Bell. There was no jk N2 and Ydrasse kept saying we need to be flipped. She won’t out her reasons for being so certain we’re scum and we need to kill her before she claims vig and that she targeted us N2. Please listen to me FL. I 100% believe I’m not wrong on this.

Spiffeh Allens Ydrasse and DEB NK’s Ydrasse


here or we 100% lose because once she outs us, we’re toast. This is our best chance.

Please listen to me @FL. If she’s vig and not a one shot, we were 100% the N2 target and once she outs this, we autolose. Creature can wait until the next night. We have to do this ir we will 100% lose.
Okay, I obviously misunderstood how alien works but Ydrasse confirmed I was right about her N2 being a failed vigshot on us.
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Post Post #6199 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:50 am

Post by Gloria Cleary »

In post 6000, Ydrasse wrote:i wasn’t ever gonna out it there but like i said earlier in this thread as soon as i saw my shot failed i like, just had this feeling it was specifically to protect you guys
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