[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Elmo]

Angelic

1 angel
2 goons
7-9? townies

The angel is told the alignments of all players, cannot post in thread, and does not exist for all practical purposes; except, each night, the angel selects one townie to protect from a kill. The mafia are told who the angel selected before they submit their kill.

Not really sure about the balance here, but I think it's cute. Odds on the town needs more than 7 townies because vanilla, idk.

[Mr. Flay]

Huh? The Mafia will never miss a kill, then; all it means is they *might* not get their first pick, depending on how astute the angel is. There's always

somebody

that needs killin'.

It MIGHT work if the angel protects secretly (might as well have the mod do it, frankly; that's not a 'player' role) and has a chance to disrupt the scum's night action.

[Tenchi]

Flay, can I have a comment on my setup?

Please.

[Elmo]

Flay, that was my intent. I want the angel to deny the scum the possibility of killing a particular person without the possibility of actually stopping the kill. That's what I see as the primary function of the doc. Why do you think it doesn't work as is?

[Empking]

Angelic

1 angel
2 goons
7-9? townies

The angel is told the alignments of all players, cannot post in thread, and does not exist for all practical purposes; except, each night, the angel selects one townie to protect from a kill. The mafia are told who the angel selected before they submit their kill.

Not really sure about the balance here, but I think it's cute. Odds on the town needs more than 7 townies because vanilla, idk.

Is the fact that if they get a lucky first day, each player can give a name, the angel protects the player ho picked scum and then the killed player's player is cleared a problem.)

(Does that even make sense?)

[Elmo]

I thought about something like that (abusing the fact that the angel knows alignments) but I think the scum can work around it easily. I could be wrong here.

Running it through in my head, I can't see it as any different than the angel can force a specific 2:1 endgame if the town does something similar to that, but it's not much different to the usual case where the angel can get any one person through to endgame unscathed, I think. Part of the reason for posting it here is for people to comment on balance and try and break it, after all

[Adel]

I don't think it is very powerful. It just adds one layer of WIFOM while it takes away another 9 townies, and each player should be allowed to opt out from being the angel before roles are given out. I kind of like it since it will encourage scum players to act as Uber-townie as possible.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay, that was my intent. I want the angel to deny the scum the possibility of killing a particular person without the possibility of actually stopping the kill. That's what I see as the primary function of the doc. Why do you think it doesn't work as is?

Can the Mafia kill the Angel?

If not, I think what you've basically got is 2:7 which is far below our usual ratio for Vanilla games. I don't think the Angel actually has much practical value, maybe half a Townie. I'm willing to be wrong, though.

Tenchi: Interesting, but I have no idea on the balance of it. Sorry.

[animorpherv1]

near- inasta win for scum if town doctorss are stupid enough not to protect claimed Vampire.

Example:

D1. Townie lynched
2 Mafia vs. 6 townies
N1. Vampire killed
3 Mafia vs. 5 Townies

also:
Last night, Vampire is still alive, but unclaimed doc does not protect Vamp, and mafia kill "it"
was:
2 vs. 4/ 1 vs. 3
is:
3 vs. 3 Mafia win/ 2 vs. 2 Mafia win

[Elmo]

each player should be allowed to opt out from being the angel before roles are given out

This is probably true, I think I'd like to be angel but in retrospect it's obvious some players would hate it.

Flay: Well, I wanted opinions on how many townies, hence the 7-9 part. Or even 10 townies might be okay.. I guess it depends situationally on how important keeping one person alive is, which is what I'm having problems figuring out. If the town correctly gets a single obvtown person, they only have to lynch one goon to be guaranteed a 50:50 shot in endgame. Town Glork never dies. Etc. I would actually value it as most of the power of a normal doctor, but then again 2:9 + 1 doc is currently running, so hmm..

And no, they can never kill the angel, which is part of why I think it's worth a townie. And the scum still can't fake-claim. FWIW the original setup had less townies and a cop in, with the angel unable to protect the cop, but I think in that case it's town-friendly unless you have only a few townies (I'm thinking in terms of California here).

@Tenchi: I would give an opinion but I really don't have much useful, beyond it seems likely that the mafia gets docblocked.. that can be swingy. Although it might be confused with mafia hitting the vampire. Not sure if the vampire's best is to play to be recruited, really... that might leave the town a bit under-numbered. Doc protects are only as strong as the doc's scumhunting, so in the worst case it's something like 2.5:7 vanilla. I suppose a lot of it comes down to doc protects which seems difficult to predict to me. I do like the mafia having a group roleblock though

[Tenchi]

Tenchi: Interesting, but I have no idea on the balance of it. Sorry.

I'll take any feedback. Thanks

[Adel]

Doublecrossed

2 Doctors
5 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Scum
1 Vampire (becomes Mafia Scum)


Mod Notes:

Vampire: Plays for Town. If NKed, stays and becomes Mafia Scum, cannot be protected
Doctor: Cannot protect self.
Mafia Scum, together submits two choices, one choice to kill and one choice to roleblock.

did you consider the possibility of players adopting the following tactics:
1. doctors claiming day 1, and cross-protecting for the rest of the game
2. the vampire claiming in twilight to create a pre-mature lylo

I think the vampire (which seems like a mild variation of the Traitor role to me) should be able to be protected. If that is the case then I think a day 1 vampire claim is a very interesting tactic. It might even be worth making the vampire a public role, so that everyone knows who the vampire is at the start of the game.

The only real problem I have with your setup (other than that it probably needs another townie or two) is how swingy it is, and that the swingyness has a strong chance of not kicking in until late in the game. The town strength necessary to balance a 3 player scum team is much stronger than the balance needed for a two player scum team.. and the vampire's final alignment won't be determined until rather late in the game.

[Tenchi]

OMG thanks Adel for feedback. I've been yearning for people to check it for days.

1. doctors claiming day 1, and cross-protecting for the rest of the game

That's why I placed a Scum Group Roleblock.

2. the vampire claiming in twilight to create a pre-mature lylo

I honestly did not see this. OK, I should make the Vampire protectable.

Some questions:

1. What do you mean by swinginess?
2. When I ran the worst case for town, it had three mislynches. If that's two small, then adding two more vanillas should solve it right?
3. Hmmm... what if I make it a Traitor instead of Vampire (scum alignment at start, unknown to the rest of the town, but unNKable.)

[shaft.ed]

It's basically end game swingy because if the town is in bad shape the Vampire can try to get recruited making the town in even worse shape. Though making the Vampire "protectable" and having a Doctor around at end game would make for some majorly interesting WIFOM.

[Tenchi]

How about changing the Vampire to a unNKable Traitor?

[shaft.ed]

How about changing the Vampire to a unNKable Traitor?

I think I actually like the Vampire role with the Doctor "fix" myself. It just hinges very heavily on one of the Docs surviving to end game.

[Adel]

OMG thanks Adel for feedback. I've been yearning for people to check it for days.

Quote:

1. doctors claiming day 1, and cross-protecting for the rest of the game


That's why I placed a Scum Group Roleblock.

and I missed that, sorry.

2. the vampire claiming in twilight to create a pre-mature lylo

I honestly did not see this. OK, I should make the Vampire protectable.

Some questions:

1. What do you mean by swinginess?

Suppose you graphed balance at lylo for thousands of games for three perfectly balanced setups, Red, Dark Blue, and Green. Make 5 be pro-town, and -5 pro scum.

Red would be the least swingy -- on average whichever side has the advantage only enjoys a slight advantage. Dark Blue, on the other hand, yields games where one side is much more likely to have a dominating advantage over the other side.

The problem with your vampire role is that late in the game he might become scum, which means that if we perfectly balance the game for the 2 scum w/ nk + RB vs 2 docs + townes, then late in the game the balance graph might jump from a shape like the dark blue to a shape like a light blue. So a more accurate graph for your game's would have a shape like

(i'm borrowing graphics, obviously)


A game design consideration that I think is important is for game to get less swingy as the game goes on. It is really frustrating to be playing in a game for 50 pages over three months only to have some combination of semi-random events make it impossible for you to win.

2. When I ran the worst case for town, it had three mislynches. If that's two small, then adding two more vanillas should solve it right?

I don't count mislynches to determine balance. mith's EV system (predicting who would win over many simulated games) gives a general rule of thumb about how many vanilla townies it takes to balance each number of scum, then we guestimate based upon experience how power roles would effect the game's likely outcome. It take a lot more townies to balance three scum than two scum.

3. Hmmm... what if I make it a Traitor instead of Vampire (scum alignment at start, unknown to the rest of the town, but unNKable.)

a less interesting game, actually. I'm not sure about the balance. Also, the traitor is usually NK-able. Did you intend to change that part?

edited instead of quoted, and then edited again to return to original

[Tenchi]

How about changing the Vampire to a unNKable Traitor?

I think I actually like the Vampire role with the Doctor "fix" myself. It just hinges very heavily on one of the Docs surviving to end game.

Unless they hit both Doctors in two days it should not be a problem. On the other hand, if they hit one doctor, then they could possibly block one other, which creates a problem. Especially if Doctor #1 dies early.

If I add a nurse, the setup becomes a bit complicated but solves the problem.

What do you think?

[Adel]

How about changing the Vampire to a unNKable Traitor?

I think I actually like the Vampire role with the Doctor "fix" myself. It just hinges very heavily on one of the Docs surviving to end game.

but there are two doctors, and they can cross protect (assuming that to RB ability is taken away from the scum).

having a Doctor around at end game would make for some majorly interesting WIFOM.

I agree. I think there is potential here.

I'm thinking about what if the two mafia goons lovers, so that it will be a smaller & shorter game, so that the players will be more tolerant of the swingyness.

something like:
2 mafia goon lovers (w. nk)
1 vampire (wins with town, joins scum if nk'd)
2 doctors (can cross protect)
4? townies (wild-ass guess)

[Mr. Flay]

I'd love to see you back up the claim that Lovers games are more tolerated because they're shorter, Adel. You've made it repeatedly but I've never seen the empirical evidence for making

only

that change to a setup (with the commensurate reduction in townies).

[Adel]

do you also challenge the proposition that swingy is more tolerated in short games than long games, or can I start from there as a given?

[Tenchi]

How about changing the Vampire to a unNKable Traitor?

I think I actually like the Vampire role with the Doctor "fix" myself. It just hinges very heavily on one of the Docs surviving to end game.

but there are two doctors, and they can cross protect (assuming that to RB ability is taken away from the scum).

Why would we want them to cross protect each other? This is an Open setup after all.

[Adel]

it is a wifom choice: claim and cross protect the other doc (assuming the vamp doesn't fakeclaim doc, which is another wonderful tactic to consider), or try to anticipate who the scum will try to nk and try to keep the vamp from being recruited

[Mr. Flay]

do you also challenge the proposition that swingy is more tolerated in short games than long games, or can I start from there as a given?

Not sure, because I find short games to be inherently more swingy than large games (where skill can even out some of the swing). I'm not sure which factor is weighted more for most people... which I guess is what I'm looking for. Do you have a poll? Survey instrument? Scummie award review?

[Adel]

do you also challenge the proposition that swingy is more tolerated in short games than long games, or can I start from there as a given?

Not sure, because I find short games to be inherently more swingy than large games (where skill can even out some of the swing). I'm not sure which factor is weighted more for most people... which I guess is what I'm looking for. Do you have a poll? Survey instrument? Scummie award review?

I read a lot of open games and mini-normals, the post games of the various runs of the setups I've designed, and I eventually began to equate post-game bitching about balance with late-game swingyness. Often I will see a setup that I think is balanced, but just happened to go one way or the other, really piss the losing players off. No graphs and no surveys though.

What is your point?