Mafiascum.net

Benmage wrote:If I'm Hannity, you can be Glen Beck.

How... unimaginative.

I Am Innocent wrote:What's really comical is Percy listed 4 people he is sure is town, and 3 of those 4 are on his wagon right now...

Just because you're town doesn't make you right. What the fuck is comical about it?

Glen Beck wrote:

Benmage wrote:If I'm Hannity, you can be Glen Beck.

How... unimaginative.

Really, it fit incredibly nicely if you ask me. I actually chuckled thinking about it.

-King of the VI's. Check.
-Loud absurd flailing. Check.
-Spouts nonsense. Check.
-False statement/distorts the truth. Check.
-Zero facts. Check.

Hannity wrote:-King of the VI's. Check.

King? Weren't you banging on about how all I do is vote them? HURR DURR

Hannity wrote:-Loud absurd flailing. Check.
-Spouts nonsense. Check.

If you don't read my posts, then how did you reach these conclusions? Oh that's right, you're just loudly calling them nonsense and absurd, so they must be nonsense and absurd!

Hannity wrote:-False statement/distorts the truth. Check.

Ooooh, now this is something I can sink my teeth into. Have you got an example of where I have either made a false statement or distorted the truth? I'd settle for just one good example, please.

Hannity wrote:-Zero facts. Check.

What kind of facts should I have? Does this apply to every townie?
Or are you saying I don't cite examples? Because it's clear that I do.

I think you're town. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone tunnel on anyone else so hard, and for such poor reasons.

Are you going to take Mina up on her avatar bet?

-The VI's still love you. Furc in this game, (Now apparently Thor)...Mina(although shes not always a VI, but you have quite the control over her)... other games as well. You're their king. You know this.

-I skimmed the last one to see that nothing new was brought to the table and you basically commented on nothingness to look like your doing something...I could break it down for you if I must. But ZOMG I said "tl/" did I lie before! I must save face ( )

-You created that magnificent far-fetched fabrication about me lying about an abnormality in this game. For the sole reason to undermine me. And tried to write it off when I became confirmed as me saving face. Meanwhile you neglected two other parties guilty of the exact same thing you accused me of. Moreover you wrote off jason whose fault shouldn't been worse. Yet prior to me becoming confirmed you were desperately trying to stick to your guns. And now your downfall is imminent, grats.

-Again...you write about nothing of consequence, but essentially eloquent filler. Which is why the VI's love you.

Nice work twisting the definition of VI to your own ends! Does VI mean Very Impressive? I'd be happy to be king of the VIs if that's what it means!
Or maybe when you say VI you mean people who don't like Benmage... Or is it more People who like Percy?

Hannity wrote:-You created that magnificent far-fetched fabrication about me lying about an abnormality in this game. For the sole reason to undermine me. And tried to write it off when I became confirmed as me saving face. Meanwhile you neglected two other parties guilty of the exact same thing you accused me of. Moreover you wrote off jason whose fault shouldn't been worse. Yet prior to me becoming confirmed you were desperately trying to stick to your guns. And now your downfall is imminent, grats.

Oh hey, let's go back to the post where I gave you your True Name:

Percy wrote:Benmage 336 - your misunderstanding of my case is wilful, and your misrepresentation constant. I think I'm going to rename you Sean Hannity. You began with "I didn't realise, I made a mistake", and after you got heat for it and I asked you about it, it became "I forgot".

The forgetting itself isn't the issue, it's changing your story under pressure.

Now you're going all out against me, but I'm not backing down. Calling my vote OMGUS is scumhunting by wiki, because you're describing my behaviour superficially and using buzzwords that don't apply.

And you're not confirmed, so why do you keep saying it?

PLEASE PUHLEASE PLEASE quote me saying "I didn't realize I made a mistake"...and than switched to "I forgot".

Because news flash: It was "I forgot" from the getgo, or was if I recall "slipped my mind" which is analogous for forgetting.

So we now have another fabrication that I A) lied and now B) changed my story. But all we have to go on, is you saying it. Because, again. PLEASE SHOW ME CHANGING MY STORY. (Hint Hint, Beck lied)

And the VI aint people who dislike me. Thats too many. And it aint people who like you. I like you. Its the people who are covered in a shroud of fog. A veil to the truth. They listen to your eloquent, well put together, aesthetically pleasing posts and write you off blind to very real scum tells.

You really gonna argue against this?

Percy wrote:And you're not confirmed, so why do you keep saying it?

If you say something enough it becomes truth, right? Hahaha kidding. You yourself named me town. You yield that its damn near impossible following yesterdays events that I'd be scum. SO why do you insist on undermining my authority? If you can't confirm scum, you might as well confirm town. (Especially since theres only 2 scum left...lets make the pool smaller) Like havingfitz, he was confirmed and therefore killed. And yes I am using the word "confirmed". But I am experienced. You are experienced. We both know theres no absolutes in mafia, and I don't think I need to s.p.e.l.l. that out for you.

Percy wrote:

I Am Innocent wrote:What's really comical is Percy listed 4 people he is sure is town, and 3 of those 4 are on his wagon right now...

Just because you're town doesn't make you right. What is comical about it?

If the numbers were 11-2, townie, and 4 of the 13 people had voted, and all 4 voted me, and 3 of the 4 people I was sure were town were on that list, being phase 1 I'd put together my list of suspects/reasons why, and hope to have my distraction lynched/eliminated as quick as possible. But you are flailing. You are going off on people you say are townie, when you should be putting together solid cases against those you think are scum. You want to stay in this game....badly it seems. All this adds up to scum for me.

That is what I find comical about it.

im not sure I get the whole 'its funny' thing... Just because Percy gets a town read of them, does not mean they cant get a scum read on them.. Scum have been known to give town reads on people too you know.

Percy wrote:Another thought:

I annoyed KScope until he

obeyed my orders

provided reasons for his vote, and during his lecture he commented that I would make an awful Kingmaker because I get all emotional, or whatever his point was.

I just remembered I

was

a kingmaker, and I

didn't

listen to my gut read and ended up killing a player because he wasn't on a scum lynching wagon (he had declared a townread of the scum just before the lynch happened). I went for that tell (and I blew it up into a case and tied myself in knots etc) rather than my solid read, which was actually on scum. Link, for those interested.

I was a bad kingmaker. But that's because I was playing from your playbook, KScope.

The fact you took the time/effort just to post (while you should know by now that I really couldn't care less about that) just convinces me more that you are indeed scum.

Yes, I push lynches, never denied that. Always did, always will.

So I decided to do some ISOs on my top scum suspects (Thor665, Mina, Lrdwhyt and Baby Spice) to get my head straight.

is all over the place to me. She seems to be behind during most of the game which could be coloring my read of her. Her posts are wordy but sometimes I get the impression she is just writing words to have them there. Wall posts aren't always needed to make your point. This is probably just how she plays.

There is little interaction with Dry Fit which can be explained by the lurking I suppose. She votes Red initially for mostly gut and she follows this trend with the unvote. Things Red have said look “townie” to her. What things, I have no idea. She hops onto Babyspice which isn't a bad vote, but the lack of any real push is worrisome. It's like she is running in place.

I have already commented on how her Lrd looks bad to me. I don't know why so close to the deadline she would try and push a brand spanking new wagon. Her lack of real explanation around her Red read feels like she is just taking the backdoor out and away from that wagon. I would have thought he would be a perfect deadline vote from her.

There are moments of scum hunting in her posts, but they get drowned out by her second guessing and chasing of her own tail. I thought I might find something scummier here, but I'm just left slightly confused. I have her neutral leaning scummy now. I'd really like to see her actively playing the game today rather than always trying to catch up. I think that should help my read on her. A big positive for her in my eyes is that she does vote Baby and Lrd at differing points, both players I find scummy.

Also Mina, you said you would wait to comment on the Percy-Sotty debate before weighing in. it gave me the impression that you have something to say about it that you never shared. I'm interested in your thoughts.

= = = = = =

starts as IKD who does little really. His RVS unvote is normal for him, town or scum. The only real thing of note is his apparent belief of Nikanor's role cop claim. What I didn't realize until now is that Lrd only placed one vote. Red's hammer. He had plenty of time to put a vote out, especially since he claimed to have read the thread in his second post.

Also in the above linked post is a case on Jason that has Lrd end with this conclusion:

Lrdwhyt Post 339 wrote:After that, nothing of his struck me as particularly scummy. There are better votes than him.

I'm considering voting Dry, but I want to see him post some more first...

Really? If he isn't that scummy why spend all the post questioning him when you could have been doing something more productive? Also the tacked on Dry-Fit after thought looks like a scum buddy validating his wagon without a vote. Nice.

The rest of his posts aren't that bad really, but it is mostly him defending himself. There is a lack of any real scum hunting here. Leaning scum.

= = = = = =

starts off as mongoose and after a slowish start he looks townie to me with how he takes the time to explain his reads. Not hot over his Benmage vote, but otherwise good.

Baby's opening post is just all kinds of ick. The comments on IAI's random wagon are just strange to me (good RVS reasoning but too many votes WTF?) The ragging on me and Nikanor for talking about daytalk.... only for her to go on and talk about daytalk. The pushing of the “Jason” slip. Lists Dry-Fit in her scum list but ends up voting for Benmage. More likely scum buddy distancing here.

Wishy washy language is scummy and I don't buy the later explanation. I'm also not understanding the continued push on benmage after Dry's lynch. Does scumDry completely clear benmage, no not 100%, but he is looking pretty damn townie right now. The case makes no sense.

She basically comes in and destroys my town read of mongose. Likely scum

= = = = = =

I'm waiting for Thor to be caught up with the rest of us. I want to agree with IAI that his Red vote was opportunistic but we were looking for a lynch that day so... Eh.

After doing some reading I have down graded my early day read of Mina leaving me with Lrd + Babyspice/Thor for the scum team.



I'm going to read the posts since my last one, but on first skim the Percy benmage back and forth looks... Uninviting. To put it politely.

I Am Innocent Post 613 wrote:So let's recap. Nikanor's vote is stuck, he replaces out, Thor comes in, and does what any good scum should do around a deadline. Play the wait and see card...

Wagon leaves his teammate, takes off on the townie. Gives the ol' UNVOTE Whoever I'm voting, hahaha, and vote RC, despite only reading 9 pages. My vote can be bought tho, cause I like the attention, hahahaha. (not funny by the way).

I might be able to swallow this narrative if you can sell me on the Percy case. You just lumped your vote back on him today with no elaboration. Change that?

Okay there wasn't too much that I skimmed. Neither Percy nor benmage are very moving. They just look like a couple of squabbling kids and the tone of their posts makes me not want to bother read them in all honestly.

Percy stop calling benmage Hannity . I get the lol factor, but it is pretty disrespectful when you do it constantly. I mean Hannity is a big freaking prick, it's like you are constantly calling him the *C* word. Also VI is being over used in this thread, the shear repitition just decreases the actual weight of the "insult" after time. It's getting more than a little ridiculous.

But enough of my rants, benmage, if you case on Percy is so epic why aren't you trying to sell everyone on it? Calling people idiots isn't going to make them abandon what they are doing and follow you. Lay out your points on Percy and lets get some scum hunting going eh?

I need to review Percy myself, but I will do that later. Percy v benmage puts me off from that. I also want to review Elmo and possibly KScope but I am feeling happy with my vote.

Isn't Percy just the most sensible lynch for Phase 1 of today? Once we know his alignment, then we can have a much more informed look at the people backing the RC wagon and whether they were doing so to save a buddy.

I would agree, A Percy flip could help determine BS allignment as she is forever calling him OBV town with no actual reasons why

Jason, I have seen town and scum do that before. There is more to a Babyspice case than her thoughts on Percy.

I'd rather not scum hunt solely on associative tells Locke. I'm only going to vote someone if I find them scummy, not for "information"

Page 14-catching up

Scummiest post I've seen from Benmage, and really the only scummy thing I've seen.
@Benmage - justify, please?

jasonT wrote:Making a side note here, Benmage seems obsessed with Percy in his posts.

Hah!

Oh gawds - I have totally skipped some walls by furc and jason.

IMI's vote on Dry-fit It should probably come as no surprise, but I'm not really impressed by it. He seems to almost be proud of noting how it's a town read. I'll admit that's a little odd as far as bussing actions go, but quite frankly so is voting someone while saying you think they're a mislynch. I'm gonna have to think on this one.

Pure win from furc <--he should know too.

Okay, page 16 and I think I've finally gotten to the heart of what will become the Percy case (his shift to furc over Dry-fit when previously mentioning Dry-fit as scummy and not mentioning furc as scummy)

Let's be honest though - how town did furc look to most of you at this stage? I'm reading it from a furctown standpoint and even I'm flipping past furc's stuff because it looks horribad. RC actually hit the best point here but even so that post was 200 posts previous, so a change of opinion isn't anywhere near as odd as he's suggesting.

Agree with jasonT about Baby Spice - continuing a push on jason like that looks like poor scum play, he also changed his tune awkwardly as people sounded off against it. He's on the list.
------------------------------
And that's about the end of the exciting stuff I have to add. Let's catch up to our conversations now in progress
------------------------------

I Am Innocent wrote:So let's recap. Nikanor's vote is stuck, he replaces out, Thor comes in, and does what any good scum should do around a deadline. Play the wait and see card...

Wagon leaves his teammate, takes off on the townie. Gives the ol' UNVOTE Whoever I'm voting, hahaha, and vote RC, despite only reading 9 pages. My vote can be bought tho, cause I like the attention, hahahaha. (not funny by the way).

******************************

Yeah, this game is over. Or should be over today, with obv scum team Percy/Thor.

Okay, I actually see your point about my leaving of the vote on Percy - the only defense I have for that is I'm not really a serial unvoter and with me not having read up and believing Nikanor isn't a totally dork-head of a player I was content to leave my vote where it was. That's all I've got for a defense there though, so take it with whatever grains of salt you will.

That said - my lurking and leaving my vote on my "scumbuddy" is scummy how exactly? I could see that as scummy play from me if *Percy was town* not if he was my buddy (as you tend to want to call your buddies scum when you're getting them lynched for boku-town points). So if you have a scum read on my slot I fail to see how that translates to Percyscum.

@Sotty7 - Mina does always dither wall posts. That's null with her.

I want to lynch either BabySpice or IAI today. They are both pretty dang scummy. I don't seem to have much support out there for the IAI wagon, though I'd like you all to weigh in on my comments about his case as it currently stands.



I never even had a town read on Mongoose for her to destroy

Percy wrote:

Thor665 609 wrote:I'm definitely ignoring all of shotty's posts as I read. I see no reason to try to track town/scum reads as mercurial as that.

shotty?

Eh, I'm in a game with him also at the moment - the two of them blur a bit.

VOTE: Lrdwhyt

Later, I'll respond to his and Kscope's posts from Day One (since I didn't get a chance to do that before the deadline), but he's still my best scum read. I'll also have...*twitch* for Benmage and Percy in a bit. But first, answers to Sotty.

Mina is all over the place to me. She seems to be behind during most of the game which could be coloring my read of her. Her posts are wordy but sometimes I get the impression she is just writing words to have them there. Wall posts aren't always needed to make your point. This is probably just how she plays.

Uh-oh. Um...I saved a giant wall that I'd spent hours writing yesterday in response to your first post of the day (during which I rambled aimlessly about everything from my thoughts as I made Sentence #3 of Post #12 to what I ate for breakfast that morning). Maybe...maybe I'll edit some of it out.

Anyone who's ever played a single game with me as either alignment can corroborate that verboseness is a null tell from me. I just overthink and overexplain everything. But I'll try to tone it down if it's making my posts unpleasant to read.

================================================================

Sotty7 wrote:Can you elaborate on this?

This answer is going to be horrendously wishy-washy, particularly since I'll preface this by saying that there's a reason I said "look more closely at" as opposed to "rank them among my top suspects." And many of your posts look as though you're sincerely scumhunting. So I wouldn't vote you today.

But that said, might as well explain my thought process yesterday, even though this is essentially just trying to articulate gut vibes.

My first instinct was that your behaviour wrt Red fit with what I'd expect from scum subtly supporting a mislynch: not very aggressive, not much conviction in his guilt, but still unwilling to give him the benefit of the doubt. IIRC, you didn't find him suspicious until others did. Your heart didn't really seem into the Red Coyote case even as you consistently joined his wagon, and you suspected Nikanor and Baby Spice more.

On the other hand, you glossed over Red's towntells (for example, that huge wagon analysis post, those "dead townie walking" last words), and seemed to nitpick over minor points of his. Maybe I just don't find cases based on "I disagree with this minor assumption in this sentence of this post" particularly compelling . But I really didn't see where Red was misrepping you.

I also agree with the late Red Coyote that the timing of your Dry-Fit suspicions/vote would fit as bussing, and that Nikanor was an easy target. Speaking of which, why did you vote Red Coyote a week before the deadline, rather than push Baby Spice or Nikanor? Also, you mention being tempted by a BS wagon if it took off, IIRC. Why didn't you move to Baby Spice, particularly when there were three votes on her?

Lastly, your IAI stance niggled at my gut. (Mina-of-the-future will also tweak this to answer your question about my Percy vs. Sotty thoughts.) You were acting very protown early on, and I was never all that impressed with Percy's point that you set a trap for I am Innocent (it might have been fake-scumhunting on Day Two, but townies always nitpick over minor things early on to get the game moving). But I wanted to see how you'd defend yourself, and thought you could use a bit of pressure, so I decided not to rush in and say, "How dare you besmirch poor Sotty's fair name?"

But I got the "hedging your bets" vibe again after that. You unvoted after IAI's fit, but then you kept on engaging with him and bickering with him--which doesn't make much sense for someone you think is town. I got the impression you were trying to make him look scummy even while you paid lip service to his being town.

Checking your ISO, I see that you were defending yourself from his case on you, so that impression probably wasn't fair.

=============================================================

Also your vote on Lrdwhyt as the day was dying looks really bad considering there was absolutely no chance of shifting the wagon that way. Why did you avoid taking a stance on one of the three top wagons with your vote?

I did take a stance on the three top wagons:


Sotty, did you notice that my vote had been on Baby Spice, and that I'd expressed a willingness to hammer RC, when you said that it "looks bad"? In that case, are you saying that the townish move would have been to have left my vote on Baby Spice or to have hammered Red prematurely, just to show that I'm an uber-decisive stance-taker?

On the other hand, if you're asking why, twenty-four hours before the deadline, I moved my vote from Baby Spice to LrdWhyt, when I knew my counterwagon almost certainly wouldn't work...that's a fair question, and I'll be honest. It was 50% reaction fishing, 40% a spontaneous whim, 10% thinking I actually had a chance in hell of getting him lynched.

Thor's moving his vote from Baby Spice to RC killed the BS wagon. I decided there would be a net gain in information if I voted Lrdwhyt rather than leaving it on BS as I delayed hammering Red. What did I have to lose?

Thor, Benmage and Percy have seen me do random last-minute votes for an unlikely lynch before. Deadline wagons are often informative, both because it puts pressure on the wagoned player and because you can see if anyone scrambles to save the wagonee or inexplicably changes his stance. Scum slip up when they're forced to think on their feet.

Besides, you never know. I've seen players get wagoned and lynched out of the blue at deadline.

Maybe I'd have fooled more people into thinking LW was actually in danger had I pushed LW earlier and harder, and I wish someone other than Thor had commented on my vote at the time, but I'm still glad I did it. Red got last words, and I got a reaction from LW.

I will probably re-read day one before I place my vote. Red's flip kinda screwed most of my reads up.

What reads of yours were dependent on Red being scum?

Locke Lamora wrote:Isn't Percy just the most sensible lynch for Phase 1 of today? Once we know his alignment, then we can have a much more informed look at the people backing the RC wagon and whether they were doing so to save a buddy.

Locke, let's try an intellectual exercise.

Alternate Universe Zachrulez wrote:

Final Vote Count of D2 P1

Percy - 7 (I Am Innocent, KaleiÐoscøpe, JasonT1981, Benmage, Locke Lamora, Lrdwhyt, Elmo)
Baby Spice - 2 (Percy, Thor665)
Lrdwhyt - 2 (Sotty7, Mina)
Benmage - 1 (Baby Spice)

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch

Percy is chosen for the execution and fed to a pack of wild cougars roaming in the Zachtown woods. A few hours later, one of you works up the courage to approach his mangled remained. All of a sudden, his cell phone rings. You answer. "This is Fox News programming. Glenn, where the hell have you been? You were supposed to go on the air at seven!" Yes, Glenn Beck has disguised himself as an Australian Old One and infiltrated Zachtown in order to cause its ruin.

Percy

(Mafia Goon)

Lynched Day Two : Phase One

Congratulations! Percy has flipped scum. Don't I have egg on my face, now? Well done, town. You get a gold star.

Now, Locke, who do you think is the third scum?

Alternate Universe Zachrulez wrote:

Final Vote Count of D2 P1

Percy - 7 (I Am Innocent, KaleiÐoscøpe, JasonT1981, Benmage, Locke Lamora, Lrdwhyt, Elmo)
Baby Spice - 2 (Percy, Thor665)
Lrdwhyt - 2 (Sotty7, Mina)
Benmage - 1 (Baby Spice)

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch

Percy is chosen for the execution and fed to a pack of wild cougars roaming in the Zachtown woods. Right before the cougars tear apart his flesh, he cries out his dying words. "Mina...f-for me...make Benmage's avatar...Barney/Baby Bop X-rated fanart...AAAAAAAAAAAH DEAR GOD MY RIB CAGE!"

Percy

(Vanilla Townie)

Lynched Day Two : Phase One

Oh NOES! Percy was innocent! You fail so hard, town. Now Benmage is stuck with an embarrassing sig/avatar combination for a month.

Now what do you do, Locke? Who do you think are the final two scum?

...okay, I could have just asked you that point blank instead wasting valuable catching-up time on writing fake mod flavour. But it was funny in my head.

Show me what you're planning to do with a Percy flip that will make me think it's worthwhile to lynch him for information.

Can you please say something really really townish so I can file you off as town and ignore you for the rest of the game? Because logically, you be town for your early DF vote. But you keep on popping up every few days or so with a cryptic one-liner that makes you very difficult to read. I'd appreciate it if you were a little more active and pushed your own opinions more. Take advantage of your "quasi-confirmed" status to take the lead.

Percy wrote:Are you going to take Mina up on her avatar bet?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Mina wrote:Thor's moving his vote from Baby Spice to RC killed the BS wagon.

Derp - I had thought Nika was on Percy.

So...wait, IAI's theory is that I was scum because I didn't vote for my scumbuddy and instead lurked (hoping to get BS lynched? Hoping the Percy wagon would dissipate/go through without me?), and then later came in with defense of said scumbuddy, called him town, and voted the alternate big wagon.

If I'm a ballsy enough scum to call my scumbuddy town and vote the "obvious opposing town wagon" then what in my lurking was scummy at all? The fact that IAI is painting me as both lurky scum and ballsy buddy-defending scum suggests that all he's doing is taking whatever I do and deciding it's scummy. Case is terribad and so is the current Percy case. I'm okay with the Lrdwhyt case, but would rather lynch Baby Spice.

Mina Post 643 wrote:Anyone who's ever played a single game with me as either alignment can corroborate that verboseness is a null tell from me. I just overthink and overexplain everything. But I'll try to tone it down if it's making my posts unpleasant to read.

I have played with plenty of verbose players before, if this your meta I will deal. I also think my impression was influenced by you being seemingly always behind. You didn't look very proactive.

Mina Post 643 wrote:But that said, might as well explain my thought process yesterday, even though this is essentially just trying to articulate gut vibes.

See this is another thing that eats at me. Your case on Red was on gut as well right? I don't think I have ever seen such a wordy gut based player before. Normally the people who post walls (which I can be guilty of sometimes) are more logical players. I dunno, it's strange to me.

Mina Post 643 wrote:My first instinct was that your behaviour wrt Red fit with what I'd expect from scum subtly supporting a mislynch: not very aggressive, not much conviction in his guilt, but still unwilling to give him the benefit of the doubt. IIRC, you didn't find him suspicious until others did. Your heart didn't really seem into the Red Coyote case even as you consistently joined his wagon, and you suspected Nikanor and Baby Spice more

Expression of willingness to join Oso in voting Red
More wondering about Red with Oso
Wanting to cut Red some slack but not really sure if I should.
Questioning Red on him trying to sell defensiveness as a scum tell
And so on...

You recall wrongly. I was right there with you at the start saying that Red wasn't the normal Red I have played with before. My gut was tweaked on him, I just believed I had stronger case on Nikanor at this point. Plus he did improve slightly as the game went on but that didn't completely negate the vote on me, which was proved false, the awkward push on Jason for being over defensive. Red then went on to backtrack/lie with his case on me. He misrepped the exchange with IAI as a slap fight which he recanted once I pushed him. He also tried to claim I never explained my town reads when I had.

It all built up to a point where I was sure he would flip scum. Simply because, in my mind he had lied so many times. The town flip was such a surprise it made me backtrack and rethink. On review I still think I was right and he was wrong, but that doesn't really help us at all. I'm sure up in townie heaven Red still thinks he was right. I am more than willing to give people the benefit of the doubt when the situation arises, I have done so with IAI and Percy already in this game as an example. But when someone constantly fabricates things to make their case look better... I don't see how or why I should have given that the benefit. It was cumulative.

Mina Post 643 wrote:I also agree with the late Red Coyote that the timing of your Dry-Fit suspicions/vote would fit as bussing, and that Nikanor was an easy target. Speaking of which, why did you vote Red Coyote a week before the deadline, rather than push Baby Spice or Nikanor? Also, you mention being tempted by a BS wagon if it took off, IIRC. Why didn't you move to Baby Spice, particularly when there were three votes on her?

I believe I have already answered this question

In a nutshell, I felt there was more support for a Red wagon at the time of my vote. I went with my gut and once Baby truly became viable, Red had already lied several times about his case on me. He rose above Babyspice.

Mina Post 643 wrote:But I got the "hedging your bets" vibe again after that. You unvoted after IAI's fit, but then you kept on engaging with him and bickering with him--which doesn't make much sense for someone you think is town. I got the impression you were trying to make him look scummy even while you paid lip service to his being town.

Checking your ISO, I see that you were defending yourself from his case on you, so that impression probably wasn't fair.

Fair enough. He kept bringing me up so I kept defending myself/engaging him. Just because I unvoted him doesn't mean I'm gonna ignore him.

Mina Post 643 wrote:Sotty, did you notice that my vote had been on Baby Spice, and that I'd expressed a willingness to hammer RC, when you said that it "looks bad"? In that case, are you saying that the townish move would have been to have left my vote on Baby Spice or to have hammered Red prematurely, just to show that I'm an uber-decisive stance-taker?

At the time of my first post of today I had forgotten about your Babyspice vote. I do think, if you had as strong a gut reaction to Red's early play you would have wanted to hammer him over start a fresh wagon. I'd think you'd want to know his alignment. Your unvote of him didn't seem very detailed to me. It was like a weak hop off the wagon.

Your explanation is plausible however and does make me feel better about you.

Mina Post 643 wrote:What reads of yours were dependent on Red being scum?

It wasn't that all my reads where dependent on him, it just that I think I was locked on there, tunneling a bit. If that was the case there is a chance I was ignoring other things I should have been considering. It was more I needed a fresh take on things with the knowledge Red was town and work from there.

Benmage is still arrogant scum, nothing changed there. Seriously 'confirmed' in this game means you're dead and flipped. Claiming otherwise is scum trying to make themselves into a white knight and lead the town to a loss.

Sotty, Mina. You both seem to be having a go at each other, but are both voting the same player. It makes me think that one of you is faking the discussion/arguement, which is scummy, whilst buddying up to them, which is also scummy. Or that one of you is bussing hard and trying to use the other as cover.