Mini 1320--Redwall Mafia: Spirit Lore (The Sun Has Set)

[vijay2vasandani]

*sigh* you're actually right.. just don't call people stupid. Why can't we all love each other like Korlash?

[iStark]

I admit he is one of the best players I've played with in terms of maintaining temperament. I need to learn thing or two from him. As of yet I lack patience and experience to put up with this ''particular'' kind of game . So, maybe in future I might be all lovely dovly.
Also, Congrats to scum. You guys deserved to win this one.

[quadz08]

Korlash can argue anything, like I said. It's because he responds to literally everything, even miniscule points that have literally nothing to do with your argument. Basically, he argues like a politician: to win, not to find the truth. (Which is actually pretty good when you're scum.)

I still have my complaints about the setup, as expressed in the dead QT. I do think you did an excellent job of moderating, DY, and I appreciate the effort you put into making the setup, which would definitely have been difficult to balance.

[DarthYoshi]

or the seekers need to have some sort of guidance to find their target (or multiple targets). The odds of finding your actual target is literally 'random' since you can't even use flavor to figure it out. So it makes perfect sense no ability was actually activated.

So what i think we've learned is that you have to keep flavor intact for this type of mechanic. Put in a rule to help avoid massclaim if you feel the need, but really for it to work the flavor needs to be there.

A fair point. I thought a rule to avoid massclaim would have been even more inelegant, but if there is a way around it that would have kept the flavor fully intact, I am all ears.

I will also say that in balancing, I considered that 4 of the townies having limited neighborizing abilities to be a PR in and of itself--not necessarily a a strong one, but that was part of their power. Earlier incarnations of the setup were actually too town-sided, so it is entirely possible I overcompensated.

iStark...yeah, you're going on my modding blacklist.

[iStark]

Sorry to hear that.

[quadz08]

or the seekers need to have some sort of guidance to find their target (or multiple targets). The odds of finding your actual target is literally 'random' since you can't even use flavor to figure it out. So it makes perfect sense no ability was actually activated.

So what i think we've learned is that you have to keep flavor intact for this type of mechanic. Put in a rule to help avoid massclaim if you feel the need, but really for it to work the flavor needs to be there.

A fair point. I thought a rule to avoid massclaim would have been even more inelegant, but if there is a way around it that would have kept the flavor fully intact, I am all ears.

I will also say that in balancing, I considered that 4 of the townies having limited neighborizing abilities to be a PR in and of itself--not necessarily a a strong one, but that was part of their power. Earlier incarnations of the setup were actually too town-sided, so it is entirely possible I overcompensated.

iStark...yeah, you're going on my modding blacklist.

I think part of the issue was that it wasn't explained very well up-front. Maybe I misread / skimmed (which is entirely possible), but my impression was that I could ONLY be neighborized by my actual creature partner, that it would match flavorwise, and that the neighborhoods would be permanent once created.

[Zdenek]

iStark, frankly after you self hammered, I was extremely grateful that we lynched you when we did. That sort of play is disastrous.

I agree completely with Quadz that from a spirit's point of view how the creature/bond connection worked, who it would work with and what the expected results would be were a mystery. This shouldn't have been as much of an issue as it turned out to be, but whatever.

Also, I don't think that this game was all that scum sided. The fact is that since scum didn't know how the creatures worked either, and Hiplop was claiming last, they wouldn't have found out. The game easily could have gone differently.

[iStark]

Compared to yours it was nothing.

[Zdenek]

Compared to yours it was nothing.

Your play, and failure to claim properly, made it really difficult for town to win.

In end game, I didn't know if creatures knew in advance what power they could unlock, this made RBT's claim seem reasonable to me, and the fact that Hiplop didn't claim that his power was unlocked (although, was he lying about that happening? Korlash pointed out that no powers were unlocked) made it seem as though he always had has powers and wasn't looking for one to unlock. This made his claim seem unreasonable for town in this setup.

Going into the day, I was fairly sure of RBT scum, which is why I wanted him to claim first, but after the claims I really can't see how I was supposed to tell that Hiplop was town.

[DarthYoshi]

or the seekers need to have some sort of guidance to find their target (or multiple targets). The odds of finding your actual target is literally 'random' since you can't even use flavor to figure it out. So it makes perfect sense no ability was actually activated.

So what i think we've learned is that you have to keep flavor intact for this type of mechanic. Put in a rule to help avoid massclaim if you feel the need, but really for it to work the flavor needs to be there.

A fair point. I thought a rule to avoid massclaim would have been even more inelegant, but if there is a way around it that would have kept the flavor fully intact, I am all ears.

I will also say that in balancing, I considered that 4 of the townies having limited neighborizing abilities to be a PR in and of itself--not necessarily a a strong one, but that was part of their power. Earlier incarnations of the setup were actually too town-sided, so it is entirely possible I overcompensated.

iStark...yeah, you're going on my modding blacklist.

I think part of the issue was that it wasn't explained very well up-front. Maybe I misread / skimmed (which is entirely possible), but my impression was that I could ONLY be neighborized by my actual creature partner, that it would match flavorwise, and that the neighborhoods would be permanent once created.

Fair 'nuff, as I did explain it only in creature role PMs and not spirit role PMs. I should have just made the full explanation of that mechanic part of the general announcements in the OP. Sorry to create that unnecessary confusion.

[iStark]

Compared to yours it was nothing.

Your play, and failure to claim properly, made it really difficult for town to win.

In end game, I didn't know if creatures knew in advance what power they could unlock, this made RBT's claim seem reasonable to me, and the fact that Hiplop didn't claim that his power was unlocked (although, was he lying about that happening? Korlash pointed out that no powers were unlocked) made it seem as though he always had has powers and wasn't looking for one to unlock. This made his claim seem unreasonable for town in this setup.

Going into the day, I was fairly sure of RBT scum, which is why I wanted him to claim first, but after the claims I really can't see how I was supposed to tell that Hiplop was town.

Make correction and say ''My own bad judgment made impossible for town to win''.

[PeregrineV]

PeregrineV attempts spirit connection w/ Junpei

Junpei kills PeregrineV (successful)

Boy, I really misread those signals!

[PeregrineV]

Great game DY! Thanks for modding it!

Also, pre-in me for your next one.

[quadz08]

No worries, Yoshi. It was a fun game.

[DarthYoshi]

PeregrineV attempts spirit connection w/ Junpei

Junpei kills PeregrineV (successful)

Boy, I really misread those signals!

Funnier story--if you weren't killed, you would have been the first creature to gain their hidden ability.

[PeregrineV]

JUNPEI!!!!

[Korlash]

A fair point. I thought a rule to avoid massclaim would have been even more inelegant, but if there is a way around it that would have kept the flavor fully intact, I am all ears.

You could do what I do. I have modded a few heavily flavored games off site, so to prevent a massclaim from breaking the setup I just give the scum a super convincing fake claim. I realize this is what you did, but I would actually have tailored it specifically for the mechanic.

Such as, take two townies and give their 'obviously themed' counterparts to the scum as fakeclaims. Then, if the town mass claims, they net three of their links but prevent the fourth from happening. This also gives the scum a chance to actually screw with the town as well.

You may think this doesn't solve the issue, but it does. it's a self balancing equation. In order to do this, the town have to out themselves, thus they gain the partner links but all their mostly likely power roles are free for the scum to pick off. This fact alone will make mass claiming an idea the town really has to think about before undertaking.

And, if you possibly suggest that a massclaim could have disastrous results at the beginning, but don't actually ban it from happening, most likely the town won't do it until late game anyway.

The point is, the town really needed that flavor for this mechanic to work, so implementing this type of setup would allow them to use it if they wanted, but not overly break the game as the scum gets an upperhand as well.

Just my two cents.

[Junpei]

Blacklisting iStark for self hammering is lame and I will not take part in it.

[Korlash]

Forgot this one:

I will also say that in balancing, I considered that 4 of the townies having limited neighborizing abilities to be a PR in and of itself--not necessarily a a strong one, but that was part of their power. Earlier incarnations of the setup were actually too town-sided, so it is entirely possible I overcompensated.

I would say they were actually a detriment to the town in all honesty. Since it wasn't made clear how the powers worked, these neighborizers didn't understand how their powers worked and thus it screwed with them unjustly. For instance, if someone thought they could only connect with their target and no one else, they may mistakenly think a player is town or is in fact their target if they connect. Or, if someone thinks they can only target town, and fails to connect, they may think the person is scum because of it.

These would count as powers but only if it is made crystal clear how the ability works at the start of the game. and even then, paranoia of being able to connect with scum will prevent it from being much use in all honesty.

[Scummies]

This is a friendly Scummies reminder that if you feel there was anyone in this game, player or moderator, who deserves a scummy, please don't hesitate to nominate or second a nomination here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21324

Possible Nominations for a Theme Game:
Best Performance of a Pro-Town Team
Best Performance of a Scum Group
Best Performance of a Third Party
Most Enjoyable Game
Best Mafia Catcher
Most Cunning Manipulation
Rising Star
Best Replacement
Funniest or Most Enjoyable Player
Best Setup
Best Role
Best Flavor Text
Best Mechanic/Mutation
Excellent Moderation (aka "Smooth Operator")

[hasdgfas]

Fin

[Equinox]

Mine?