Ikaruga Mafia (Game Over!)

[ZZZX]

why dont u move the vote lol its your slot

hydra courtesy. as a perfect gentleman, i usually let my partner have control of the vote.

I keep forgetting you guys are a hydra.


Anyway can someone explain the biggest wagon going on? I'm confused abit

they're scum+trolls and we're trying to sort them out

Who do you believe to be troll so far and who is scum in ur opinion?

[Antihero]

not so, my dear metal sonic

jordan seems to be clinging to RVS logic and then using the anti-mastin/hero sentiment to ride out the wagon. this is evidenced by the fact that he can't articulate why he's voting us (other than parroting the party line that we're not "providing content").

ironically, i could say the same for jordan. a quick look at his iso shows he's:
1) whiteknighted Xay
2) tunneled on your slot and our slot the whole game nearly to the exclusion of everyone else (apparently Fear merited a mention, but he's willing to blissfully go along with the wagon even though he apparently doesn't like the company).

aaaaaand, that's it.

[ZZZX]

Can you remind me what white nights refers to? (Is it indirectly protecting?)

[TiphaineDeath]

Erm, anti, your 626 said Jordan twice but implied there were supposed to be two different names there....

[Antihero]

Can you remind me what white nights refers to? (Is it indirectly protecting?)

no, it's directly protecting.

it's scummy because, as town, you should be skeptical of

everyone

coming into the game (since everyone has the same chances of drawing scum). picking out someone you think is "lynchbait" and chainsawing for them out of the gate is bad town play (which is why Slayer's Gambit doesn't work).

however, there's plenty of reason for scum to white knight; namely, because they already

know

their "lynchbait princess" that they're valiantly riding to rescue is town.

[Antihero]

Erm, anti, your 626 said Jordan twice but implied there were supposed to be two different names there....

sorry, where's the screw-up?

[TiphaineDeath]

Perhaps it's just an odd wording and both paragraphs meant jordan, but you said "Jordan seems to be-" in the first paragraph, and then followed it with "ironically I could say the same for Jordan". Leading the reader to the conclusion that the first paragraph was not about Jordan, and slightly confusing one TD.

[Antihero]

Perhaps it's just an odd wording and both paragraphs meant jordan, but you said "Jordan seems to be-" in the first paragraph, and then followed it with "ironically I could say the same for Jordan". Leading the reader to the conclusion that the first paragraph was not about Jordan, and slightly confusing one TD.

yep, i'm sliding on my grammar.

my implication was that jordan isn't providing much content (what i previously called "the party line" in the parenthetical).

[ZZZX]

Perhaps it's just an odd wording and both paragraphs meant jordan, but you said "Jordan seems to be-" in the first paragraph, and then followed it with "ironically I could say the same for Jordan". Leading the reader to the conclusion that the first paragraph was not about Jordan, and slightly confusing one TD.

yep, i'm sliding on my grammar.

my implication was that jordan isn't providing much content (what i previously called "the party line" in the parenthetical).

Calling out others to something is a strong scummtell/slip depending how you take it.


I have seen it.countless times. Scum naturally call others for things they do for some reason

[TiphaineDeath]

Ok, was just checking if that was one accusation or two.

Pedit: wat?

[ZZZX]

You are talking about thenecro right?

[TiphaineDeath]

I am so confused right now. I am talking about thenecro where?

[MafiaSSK]

So how has the thenecro wagon actually started to gain steam? It still seems dumb to me.

[ZZZX]

I am so confused right now. I am talking about thenecro where?

I think.my PC bugged lol wtf

[Jordan_Downey]

1) i thought you said you talked with sthar about my meta. if you never had a meta knowledge why did you act like you did before?
2) the bolded is a substantive argument. care to give any backing for that?
3) you're making baseless accusations, seeing that i can't respond to a baseless accusation, and then try to accuse me of not generating content. gotta' love the logic trap.

One, this is a hydra. What Jingle knows is going to be completely different what I know. In regards to backing. Look over just about any post from you from page 20 back. Only recently have you included any real argument, and have dropped off the emotional fit. Which I appreciate.

not so, my dear metal sonic

jordan seems to be clinging to RVS logic and then using the anti-mastin/hero sentiment to ride out the wagon. this is evidenced by the fact that he can't articulate why he's voting us (other than parroting the party line that we're not "providing content").

ironically, i could say the same for jordan. a quick look at his iso shows he's:
1) whiteknighted Xay
2) tunneled on your slot and our slot the whole game nearly to the exclusion of everyone else (apparently Fear merited a mention, but he's willing to blissfully go along with the wagon even though he apparently doesn't like the company).

I personal tend to directly focus on a few people. I can assure you I'm keeping a watch on the rest of the game. I'd like to see where exactly you think we whiteknighted xay. If it's for thinking he's an easy lynch, I still agree on that. Doesn't mean he's town. An easy lynch can come from either side. A players ability isn't alignment indicative.

In regards to Fear, I don't like his posts. They've added nothing to the game, while accusing you of doing the same, which isn't helpful, but there is very little posting to deal with, and I still like your slot better at the moment.

In regards to no content, I'm sure just like you, I feel like I'm getting all sorts of information from other players in response to my posts, and that's what I need at this point in the game. Perhaps when jingle gets caught up he'll have better site meta posts for you to judge.

[ZZZX]

1) i thought you said you talked with sthar about my meta. if you never had a meta knowledge why did you act like you did before?
2) the bolded is a substantive argument. care to give any backing for that?
3) you're making baseless accusations, seeing that i can't respond to a baseless accusation, and then try to accuse me of not generating content. gotta' love the logic trap.

One, this is a hydra. What Jingle knows is going to be completely different what I know. In regards to backing. Look over just about any post from you from page 20 back. Only recently have you included any real argument, and have dropped off the emotional fit. Which I appreciate.

not so, my dear metal sonic

jordan seems to be clinging to RVS logic and then using the anti-mastin/hero sentiment to ride out the wagon. this is evidenced by the fact that he can't articulate why he's voting us (other than parroting the party line that we're not "providing content").

ironically, i could say the same for jordan. a quick look at his iso shows he's:
1) whiteknighted Xay
2) tunneled on your slot and our slot the whole game nearly to the exclusion of everyone else (apparently Fear merited a mention, but he's willing to blissfully go along with the wagon even though he apparently doesn't like the company).

I personal tend to directly focus on a few people. I can assure you I'm keeping a watch on the rest of the game. I'd like to see where exactly you think we whiteknighted xay. If it's for thinking he's an easy lynch, I still agree on that. Doesn't mean he's town. An easy lynch can come from either side. A players ability isn't alignment indicative.

In regards to Fear, I don't like his posts. They've added nothing to the game, while accusing you of doing the same, which isn't helpful, but there is very little posting to deal with, and I still like your slot better at the moment.

In regards to no content, I'm sure just like you, I feel like I'm getting all sorts of information from other players in response to my posts, and that's what I need at this point in the game. Perhaps when jingle gets caught up he'll have better site meta posts for you to judge.

Still no reason to try to get him voted for it is it?

[T S O]

My catch-up will be stream of consciousness yay

#36 gives me my first scumread of the game in Xayzeck - I've seen him as both alignments and the OMGUS part doesn't fit with my memories of town-Xay.
#46 makes me wonder why mastin tells TMCT that he's voting him because he thinks he's scum, and then reminds TMCT he's not sold on town-him ...yes, mastin, we'd assume that.
#63 is more weirdness from Xayzeck - getting a feeling I'm onto something here.
#68 reminds me of an entrance I've used as scum trying to appear as emphatic town.
#74 is better, though, but they're a decent hydra, so I'm not sure if I want to clear them or ugh idek.
#86 makes me think mastin's a brazen motherfucker as either alignment, but to do that as scum? Not sure I see it.

Yeah, fuck it, mastin can be town, he's so damn likeable I feel it hard to call him scum, plus he's town.

#101 Xayzeck is officially scumfuck #1.
#112 SHEEP SCUMZECK SHEEP

Vote: Xayzeck

This needs to be done now, don't care what happens down the line.

#118 hey brah it's you who's scum
#147 YES NATI VOTE XAYZECK <333 but we may have to talk 'bout mastin
#169 Xayzeck suspicion is good, Dry-fit.
#170 Zdenek looking good here as well although I disagree with him, his manner is town
#179 is town as fuck plus Xayzeck vote - I declare Zdenek INNOCENT CHILD DAY 1.
#180 it's Saki, friend, what could you expect?
#184 no SSK, bad SSK.

more Xayzeck being scum, especially #199

#203 hang this fucker now
#206 YES ANTI
#212 what history?
#238 good point, Doublade!

That's up to page 10 - will further catch up later.

[T S O]

Anyone not voting Xayzeck should be.

[mastin2]

Back on 18, but before I read those 8 additional pages, basic rundown on my wagon:

TheNecromancers (8): Jordan_Downey, Talah, Xayzeck, Natirasha, Sharpest-knife-on-tree, Aegor, Doublade, Fear.

Jordan:

Jordan's posting immediately struck me as scum even in 68. The accusation was weak, ESPECIALLY given (1) it's me, Mastin, and (2) it's largely not true given that my reads form independently of where a player is voting. Saying we were setting up a town lynch after Xayzeck was also bad. This, coming from a player that isn't brand new to me, who has enough familiarity with my games and my style to KNOW that this is fairly par for the course. The backing doesn't even hold, either.

(Though that'd make SSK prob-town.)

Mastin had a P1 "could be scum" read. Then you bite into the lynchbait who expressed suspicion above the "Can we kill this?" read.
You're obv setting up SSK for D2. Cockiness I expect. Sloppiness? Not so much. I'm ashamed of your play this game.

No, SSK isn't being set up, and at the time I was simply throwing around probabilities. There's also the fact that he's calling our play sloppy. I'll admit, it certainly has been...but that sloppiness should be an indicator of a TOWN mindset, yet he's using it to show a scum one.

I am gonna say that Xay is an easy lynch. He's getting better, but he's not on the same level as mastin yet. And mastin knows that.

There's also the fact that he claims to be familiar with my play, and yet thinks that I would attack an easy lynch like Xayzeck.

Jingle are you pushing me or protecting me

Nope and neither.
I also don't agree PL always means town. It's easy to hide in a PL as scum when the target flips town.

Denies WKing Xayzeck yet that's quite strongly what they have been doing. The whole PL debate is also weird.

I'm not in agreement at all with TheNecromancers, though I have seem manipulative aspects in their posts I personally not seeing much scum. We'll see how it goes.

This line when spoken by a town player is typically accompanied by an unvote. But the tone is scummy-as-hell here. Not seeing much scum, and waiting to see how it goes, in particular, don't feel like the town wording for those statements. ESPECIALLY given this.

Spring Starflower still isn't making any better posts. So don't like that slot.

Not really suspicious of us...yet suspicious of Spring. But keeping their vote on us...why? Because there's a wagon on us.

Not a fan of fear's activity. Accusing people of having no content when also not including content.
Spring Starflowers voting is horrible even if I can agree with the fear vote. Still not introducing anything.
Letting the other head catch up before we decide if we'll change a vote, as including the above I still agree with the Necro wagon at this time.

This is also a horrible post, because Fear?
Voted us.
We?
Gave suspicion on Fear both before and after the vote.
Why does Fear voting us not give so much as a pause for them on our wagon?
Why does our Fear suspicion (which he should be agreeing with) go unnoticed?

The overall picture doesn't make sense coming from a town player. It doesn't add up. The viewpoint they're taking I can't see the reasoning behind from a town player. They're not really scumhunting, merely making statements that're largely about things most likely to be null. Their wording lacks commitment, yet they've basically committed to their vote the whole game. More than that, this simply doesn't

feel

like Jingle's towngame. Admittedly, I'm not too intimately familiar with said towngame, but this doesn't feel like it and it does feel like a scumgame.

The overall read is decently-strong scum, but not overwhelmingly so.

talah:

To understand this read, you have to understand our histories together as players. I've basically outlined it, but there's a difference between quoting and linking to. Here is Gundam Seed, where we were basically introduced to one another. The dead QT, where we talk. Check out message 56 where I cheer as talah catches onto the scum in Kalimar. Then message 64. (65 I think, too.) 69 as well. And from there all the way to 79.

Mastin rageposting. LOL. Let's hydra in a few months or something - I'm dead in all games now and it suits me okay, but I love your attention to detail and I think you'd be great to work with bouncing ideas off.

I die (ESPECIALLY DURING THE DAY), you pretty much know the town's in for a whole lotta HURT.

And talah responded with a smiley. Basically, talah knows that I am an incredibly strong, valuable town player. Which talah even commented on.

It was nice to be able to re-read your posts and look for intent, and then

be able to quiz you on specifics

and have more insight to counteract 'teh mysteriez of succinct'. Actually if you'd survived a day or two I think

it would have been really easy for you to have obvtowned with that posting style+

openness

- obviously scum thought you'd already got there.

Note the contrast here to that game. Note how talah pushed me as scum, without asking questions, without asking inquiries, without that follow-through. I'm just as much open if not moreso this game. Yeah, I've begun by not explaining in detail. But I've been willing to, and have already done so slightly.

Next up, Time distortion. It's as talah said in 172: We made posts basically without using our QT that synched up nearly perfectly, for better or for worse. I posted stuff that talah agreed with, and vice-versa, before the other had the chance to have posted it. Sometimes ninjaing each other on the same exact point just said differently, but using not only the same basic reasoning but reaching the same ultimate conclusion. Showing that, yes, we do synch up fairly well as town.

I already mentioned 172, but again, check out talah's attitude towards me there. He brings up this history. I am forced to dismiss it. He continues pressing valid points about me, and I was kinda not doing very well as a result. Yet here's a critical factor:

talah was extremely hesitant to keep his vote on me

. He voted me because he correctly had me as scum...but he wanted to be wrong. He tried giving me every benefit of the doubt possible, and recognized the chance he could be wrong, and if so, lynching me D1 would be a Very Bad Idea (TM). This game...none of that has been shown.

This game, I'm the one who brought up our history, and now HE is dismissing it. He's kept his vote on me, showing no hesitance about it, in spite of saying that he thinks he can read me correctly and the fact that, bluntly, I'm one of the towniest players in the game right now which means if EVER there was a game where he should be townreading me, it's this one.

Thus, why he's among my stronger scumreads. If not my strongest.

Xayzeck:

Honestly, I'm thinking Xayzeck is town, here. Xayzeck's slot has done a lot of stuff that screams either incredibly dumb or quite simply scum. But while there are flashes of eyebrow-raising scumposting that makes me tilt my head and think about his alignment being scum...I don't think it is. Because while a lot of his pushes are bad, I feel like they come from town all the same. This one's a bit more difficult to explain, but basically, strings of his posting look like town; strings of his posting look like scum. But overall, his tone and the content presented does make me think town.

Natirasha:

Though this is mainly a gut feeling, there actually is reasoning. However, I don't want to explain the read until Nati actually comes and posts more since the storm yesterday brought. (Consider this a close-to-my-chest read.)

The sharpest-knife-on-tree explanation is something that I will get around to after I've read the content in the last eight pages, since I took a skim and know he's posted in the majority of it. Basic rundown is that there are flashes of town, but that his overall mindset looks like scum, especially considering he's had some highly-hypocritical things which show either an extremely double-standard confbias or a scum mindset. So basic SKOT read is confbias-town or scum, with an overall feeling of decent-scumread.

Aegor:

Okay, bluntly, there's nothing town I see in Aegor, really. Quite honestly, the only reason I'm not more strongly scumreading Aegor is that I don't think I've ever had a game where I've townread him, meaning that I'm prone to thinking he's scum regardless of his alignment. So basically, my read here would be much more strongly scum if not for meta-showing-caution. This is in contrast to Dry-fit, in that while I saw bad stuff from Dry-fit that made me suspicious, I can also see Dry-fit as town with his posting; when looking at Aegor, I see bad but I don't see how he could be playing this way as town. Thus, confbias, and thus, not my strongest scumread, but still among them overall. (Because just 'cause I'm confbiasing doesn't mean I'm wrong. )

Doublade:

Not sure if I can really explain the townread here that well. It's basically a combination of tone and mindset. Marquis has shown a ridiculously town tone, coming across as genuine. Furthermore, his thoughts are highly original and show he's thinking critically. He's not making blind assumptions, he's not slacking off, there's actual effort to putting puzzle pieces together; he doesn't seem to have the answers already. He's among my strongest townreads, and I can follow his thoughts perfectly.

Fear:

Similar to SKOT, but I'll just say that admittedly, I don't really have much experience with either head. (Though...emogirl doesn't fancy me as the type to be playing in this manner as town, but this is just from what I remember of The Fall which was a toxic game, soooooo, not a good baseline for her.) If I did, my scumread could be stronger or could be nonexistent, but what I've seen does point to scum, albeit only a little bit.

After catching up and doing the details on the players I didn't detail here, I can also detail other players-of-note. (That is, potential scum players.)

[T S O]

Looking at the current votecount it's clear something happened to dispel the Xayzeck wagon/ignite a TN one. I'll find out later, I guess.

[T S O]

Mastin, I heavily disagree with your Xayzeck read and I'll champion my case if you want to talk in an hour or so. I could talk quickly now, but I may have to go.

[ZZZX]

Not connected hydras are driving me insane I had to open main page 18 times today to check who hydras are.

[TiphaineDeath]

Yay TSO!

[mastin2]

But let us look at that facts of his games played.
25 total complete games.
Drew scum role 8 total times. He won as scum a total of 6 times. He lost 1 time in a multi-ball game. He lost once as a SK. That is a high win percentage as scum.

High win percentage != competency. Eight scum games is not a large sample size. If his win percentage was near-100% with that number of scumgames and he joined the site within one or two years? Sure, yeah, it'd be significant. If his win percentage was that high with a significantly-larger sample size with his current number of games? Sure, yeah, it'd be significant. But he's been here for five years. That's an average of 1.5 scumgames per year. You're effectively using a sample size of one or two, in spite of saying it's larger, because scumgames/year is far more important the statistic to scumgames overall.

Also, maybe different or maybe along the same lines, food for thought: if a veteran that had won ten scumgames in 2004 came back and lost a scumgame today, what would your thought on that be? The stats say they've got a high win percentage as scum. The numbers say competency as scum. Just a fluke? Or maybe, just maybe, they're not nearly as competent now as they once were.

The quick scum read on non-sense.

So basically...
...You expected us to scumread you for posting non-sense.

Nonsense that would be true our alignment regardless.
Nonsense we would therefore call you out on our alignment regardless.

What do you gain from it, then?

to start off: why dont you give me a person or two in mastin's scumslot of which he has given valid reasons

In-thread at the time of this request alone? Talah, yourself to some extent, beginning to on SKOT (though admittedly not that much), as just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Mastin, what is your readslist based off of?

Differs from player to player. Tonality. Mindset. Circumstances. Meta. General aura of things and how they've gone. Like you as town, among my strongest, thanks to stuff like this. Zdenek's a strong townread because I instantly saw the town in his posting and thoughts.

My reads are plenty thought through. I just haven't placed the reasoning in-thread. (Until partially just right now, albeit not fully.)

(TD's 460 is ridiculously town, btw. As is follow-through.)

Forgive me if I do not have a lot of faith in your perspective. I have not seen you do well and seen you suckered in past by someone that appeared 1000% scum and was. Again, that was past this is now. I am wading my way around here.

First half does not mesh with the second half, especially given:

I am not using meta other than meta came up as the source of your reaction, in particular to being called good at being scum.

(Different context, but shows how he treats meta all the same.)

I am not a "tell hunter" nor a "meta hunter" but I did want to see what you did-

YET MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL,

eh, I have tried pulling things from reading past games and I do not do a good job of reading those differences.

I am more of what is going on in the moment

and other stuff which is the tools used where I have played many many games. I cannot shake what do and I cannot do what others.

So pointing me to completed games is all nice and shiny.

And that being said, it really has nothing to do with games with you as a hydra with mastin which is a completely added dynamic and brand spanking new.

Bolded: his stated preference of living in the now, not the past. Yet when TD is playing in the present and raising points that may hold validity, does SKOT pause to consider them?

No. He goes into the past, pointing to completed games which is all "nice and shiny" as he puts it. When he himself has admitted that it was a completely different dynamic. Antihero said it well: dismissing via a reverse 7-for-7 ("you were wrong before, you're wrong again"), when there were legitimate points that by SKOT's own philosophy should have been listened to.

(I will be going over SKOT's posting in this range in more detail later, though, to give you a better idea of how it makes me feel about SKOT. If I had him as my strongest scumread, you'd see me voting him, but I'm not.)

[T S O]

Yay TSO!

Yay Tiphaine!