Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

[skitter30]

How the fuck do you guys think fark town?

mena is way off his scum meta imo

ok talk to me about this ?

Also btw, since I know you believe in meta, does D1 scum!enps in 1941 affect your thoughts (on review it didn’t me, but I wanted to raise)

idk, i've never read it
let me get back to you

[skitter30]

could you better explain ur nmsa tr? or does it mostly come down to him feeling more natural?
what is your current stance on sushi?

feeling more natural + the reaction test, which i don't think scum does there really

sushi is a bit north of the null line

[teacher]

Fair nuff. It’s my best read. I’ll go creep, but I think Menalques off my D1 list.

Idk how I felt about selnyees question to creeper. It stuck to me but not for any reasons I can come up w. How bout you?

[skitter30]

'd rather analyze possible teams and interactions and get the most information out of it for future's sake.)

oh like this

like i think he's coming from a ~different~ pov/culture/meta, which seems scummy here

but i think he really believes it - he's practicing what he's preaching, and actively approaching analyzing the game from this mindset

[skitter30]

i think i'm still in the past, so let me read that part of the game before i answer lol

[skitter30]

@Farkran- Not rushing to hammer D1 is very possible- maybe mafia are just more cautious or don't trust themselves for one of them to be in the spotlight D2 and so on.
To be fair, you actually didn't say you have a scum read on Menalque or explain it till now.

I don't see much of a defence there...their scumreads at this point are basically based on an assumption on the bandwagons. And Emps on tunnelling (if still actual). Also, they never actually explained the strange scumread on NMSA at that point. You are right about forgetting about you.

How do you read the townlean on Skitter while also saying they wouldn't push her as scum D1?


@SushiMartyr can detail your read on emps (after catching-up)

feels kinda iioa-y to me, tbh

[skitter30]

if you care to help me @selynee @skitter @emps @nmsa @menalque please tell me why you are so strong on teacher being town because it doesn't make any sense to me.

as far as i'm aware, he's still sortable by post count

lol

why lol ?

[skitter30]

I currently have a fair townread on you because from your pov you see me playing like shit so you tunneled but you're likely angered town. Skitter realized she was tunneling on me, likely tried to understand my pov and switched. Teacher wasn't tunneling until last posts, now he's tunneling harshly which does not make any sense to me.

i mean townies do the tunneling thing too
not sure that this is inherently a good reason to scumread someone, which you seem to be aware of?

[skitter30]

No you didn't, or you would have noticed my full explanation about being ok with Menalque lynch instead of paraphrasing only whatever suits you. Tunneling (or entering tunnel vision) in my vocabulary means you focus on one target to the point you start ignoring everything else around you,

which is bad play and newbie logic USUALLY coming from angered townies.

Your definition of tunneling is what i would call pursuiting which is good logic but not so much on d1 where the chance of scumreading correctly is very low, and

so why do you think he's scum here ... ?

[skitter30]

EC, what is your opinion about teacher's answer to your question?

@ teacher

this one?
busy work

could see this as scum distancing badly (trying to like 'interact' with their partner without really pushing them)

[skitter30]

Not voting until I catch up properly

were you caught up whn you gave intent ?

[emps]

hm interesting points on town!fark there skitt

ill think on it a bit

[emps]

i would iso them again but im not isoing someone 3 times when its about 2 or 3 days into D1

[teacher]

I'm trying to reread things by inverting my pov like "what would happen if teacher is actually town" (

still scumreads me; rest of para snipped

However, Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1. Creeper is also unlikely for the same reason. A teacher/menalque team is very unlikely. (

by eliminating these three, and his expressed townreads of skitt and NMSA**, Fark is saying the only slots pairable w Menalque are emps (see below) selynee ON WAGON and Creeper. Why would someone with an associative bent join the largest wagon w TWO OF HIS scumreads on it other than to survive?

....snip......

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate (

this is the evolution issue in a nutshell. Fark has a clear town read on NMSA, and a clear scumread on me, until now. Why does he deny the townread here. And he does so in order to go from scum to TL to at least midlining — all the while getting on a wagon w me targeting an earlier town PR read??

Sorry to do online comments but easier than multi quote in mobile. As it shows the issue isn’t just the evolution on Menalque, but also on emps and NMSA are failing the coherent band of your try. I get they approach the game differently and have different views on protown play. But my fundamental issue is not seeing the consistency in application of that approach.

[teacher]

@ skit 633
Farks 600 is exactly my issue. It gives a reason to TL emps, whereas 540 at least says that’s his - charitably reading- third bigger scumlean after me and Menalque. Like I’m seeing what your saying on different standards and D1 goals but the step I’m missing is I’m not seeing logical application of those standards.

[teacher]

I'm trying to reread things by inverting my pov like "what would happen if teacher is actually town" (

still scumreads me; rest of para snipped

However, Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1. Creeper is also unlikely for the same reason. A teacher/menalque team is very unlikely. (

by eliminating these three, and his expressed townreads of skitt and NMSA**, Fark is saying the only slots pairable w Menalque are emps (see below) selynee ON WAGON. Why would someone with an associative bent join the largest wagon w TWO OF HIS scumreads on it other than to survive?

....snip......

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate (

this is the evolution issue in a nutshell. Fark has a clear town read on NMSA, and a clear scumread on me, until now. Why does he deny the townread here. And he does so in order to go from scum to TL to at least midlining — all the while getting on a wagon w me targeting an earlier town PR read??

Sorry to do online comments but easier than multi quote in mobile. As it shows the issue isn’t just the evolution on Menalque, but also on emps and NMSA are failing the coherent band of your try. I get they approach the game differently and have different views on protown play. But my fundamental issue is not seeing the consistency in application of that approach.

Second bolder paragraph edited to remove creeper due to my error. But thats EXACTLY my point. Fark previously townread Menalque. He switches for a weak reason (imo - inverting reads based on a new wagon is understandable) despite all the analytical signs pointing against.

Like the only two possible partners in THEIR analysis are emps (who Fark has been evolving into a townread on, as expressed when criticizing me and in his discussion of emps tunneling) and Selynee who is on the wagon he is joining along with his biggest scumread - me. Why oh why would you ever do that? That’s not logical application of their approach. That’s not “practicing what they preach”

**i admit in a bit of a one trick pony at this point. I’ll stop in Fark now with one question - are they out of your comp pool skit?

[skitter30]

- he thinks reconsidering is a townie trait. it manifestly in him actively reconsiders his poe repeatedly, and does the 'inverting his reads thing' to imagine what happens if his reads are upside down

it also subtly shows up in the thought process behind is reads -> skitter is town for reconsidering me, teacher is town for not (or bad); votes menalque for having read changes that don't logically follow

- it manifests also in the fact that he thinks info-lynches are a good idea - it's how he confirms or disproves his theories. also in why he's not survivalistic - being lynched isn't great, obviously, but it provides that info that he's after for everyone else (even if he thinks we won't adequately be able to apply the information)

- also he talks in a like 'well obviously the way you lot approach this game is dumb and suboptimal, unfortunately you simply don't know how to play better, so you're all playing badly' tone that kinda pervades through all his posts (it shows up a lot), and i think this is kinda hard to fake consistently over several irl days

idk this was kinda rambly and not super organized; like i can kinda see the threads behind his posts that make sense but it's hard to put it into words, a bit

like it all kinda makes sense together
if you still don't see it i can try to explain again

when you say 'are they out of your comp pool' do you mean lynch pool? yeah i'm not interested in lynching them rn

[teacher]

I think I get it. I don’t agree, but that is what it is.

Talk w me about the Menalque wagon “stalling out”. I didn’t see it happening before Farks vote. I feel like it was more game than wagon if that makes sense - that it wasn’t the wagon but the normal drop in activity after an early rush. Did it actually feel stalled to you? (This is more a gestalt/worldview question than a factual one, just curious about the “feel” of the game others described.

Do you think there’s a way to get creeper in? If not, any interest?

[teacher]

teacher is town for not (or bad); votes menalque for having read changes that don't logically follow

Here is the disconnect. I wasn’t towny for reconsidering my post arguing against his lynch, that reconsideration was scummy. And Menalques read changes absolutely logically follow from a wagon on him - if reconsideration is town, why is it town only when it benefits him and scummy when it doesn’t (either to vote him or as an excuse to vote the counter wagon). That’s why I disagree, but I do get it, the other points more so than this one.

[Nexus]

Votecount 1.7:

Farkran (3) -

Seleynee, emps, teacher

Menalque (2) -

skitter30, Farkran

EpicCreeper9002 (1)-

NotMySpamAccount

Not voting (3) -

Sushi Martyr, Menalque, EpicCreeper9002

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. The deadline is at 9am BST on the 28th August 2019. (expired on 2019-08-28 09:00:00)

[Selynee]

Don't exactly expect a readlist.

Emps- pretty locked up on you. Not something I think most scum would be doing for so long D1. Also, his reads on EC and sushimartyr (partially till now) seem genuine. Townlead-townread.

NMSA- Already said plus I feel like him giving town reads wouldn't be so great for mafia later in game.



Sushi Martyr- 182 and 216 fair questions, 498 seems an in-depth read on Menalque, 220 was actually ehmm....not sure how they'd read me based on this, "I'd like a chance to do that before you condemn me though" (450) seems to me way too polite more like fear of being scumread, reads are....plausible, but tbh, not a huge fan of announcing you are basing your read on someone else's meta. Scumlean


Menalque- 181 has a good point, not a fan of scum reading NMSA there (or in 606, not sure how EC is comparable to Fark even if you consider both scummy plus NMSA gave a townread on Fark), not going to read much into changing reads because in general people who give reads very early in the game tend to change them almost entirely somewhere along the line but not much interest in Farkran after giving intent (whatever it was for creating discussions or not).

EpicCreeper- I mean the reads on Farkran and emps were based on "talk and asking question is good" which is pretty generic stuff, I agree the reaction test could have been just them deciding to back out of a scumread on Emps. No clue what his partner would be doing.

Farkran- First reads seem forced to me. Not in the way that you've changed them, but mostly that I couldn't understand them. My fakehammer- guess I'll have to believe it is game play difference...Some of the reasons for your early reads as I said, I either don't understand or don't agree with: being careful with votes, intend and so on. Your reaction being to L-1 and so has been pretty...unafraid to be lynched though and you scum read the person defending you- makes me think it was a genuine read. Menalque, as I said, you do have a point there that he gave intent and then sort of ignored it, but I find the trajectory 50 to 0 strange. Gun to my head, I'd say town for lynched-related behaviour (mostly)

Skitter- Interesting thoughts on town!Farkran- the progression of the read seems real (though I'd say the vote itself wasn't half-bad in this situation). Most questions were on point and advanced the discussion.

So, calculating the score:

VOTE: EpicCreeper

[teacher]

Why’d you leave me Nd only need of the list?

[Selynee]

Pretty much tired and decided my last read on you is accurate, regardless of your change in vote.

[Farkran]

and yeah the fact that the game stalled when you got wagoned is ... slightly concerning

It is kinda weird tho

I think it implies one of the SEs is scum, prob telling their partner to stay off me to keep it looking like it’s not building cause it’s all townie

Idk if you’d do that as scum? But trying to read you is a nightmare anyway

It’s like, everything is basically NAI

this is some ... interesting logic ?
you think scum are deliberatley staying off wagon to create the impression of stalling-ness?

have you like ever seen scum do this?

Agree with this, although it may lower my townread of you a bit and i'll need to test that later.

Also by this site standards Menalque should have claimed already, am i correct?

[Farkran]

I currently have a fair townread on you because from your pov you see me playing like shit so you tunneled but you're likely angered town. Skitter realized she was tunneling on me, likely tried to understand my pov and switched. Teacher wasn't tunneling until last posts, now he's tunneling harshly which does not make any sense to me.

i mean townies do the tunneling thing too
not sure that this is inherently a good reason to scumread someone, which you seem to be aware of?

so why do you think he's scum here ... ?

See my definition of tunneling in 600. emps almost immediately locked me as scum and went emotional on me. Testing his reaction while he's in lockon blindrage is a fairly strong towncheck. In my experience the standard is throwing sarcasm and insults (exactly what emps did) rather than try to convince other players with good reasoning that their target is scum - exactly what teacher did UP TO POST 541, followed by 572 where he starts ignoring my questions and talking nonsense. Given his previous behavior, this is way late in my eyes to enter berserk mode, especially when it is coincidental with

him unvoting the L-1 Menalque

BEFORE 1. intent (also a standard procedure in this site, strongly advocated by teacher himself) 2. questioning to complete. We can remember teacher happily jumping on my wagon in the 4th slot, i wonder why he jumped off Menalque's in this context even if his reads of the target are significantly leaning towards SR (see: 458 and 522). He was 2nd in slot on Menalque, for future reference.

I must say as a premise to what i'm going to say next, that i believe the "mind melding" as you mean it in this site to be a crappy strat to achieve results - i am usually VERY aware and paranoid as town. I mostly don't trust anyone unless i have VERY STRONG reads, almost never happens, especially in d1. For the same reason, in d1 i am usually never trusting myself on my scumreads and willing to reconsider quickly based on further analysis and hypotesis on the various povs. Town!emps now makes a lot of sense, but no way i am following his logic aka "mind meld" with him on my votes.
With this said, my only true very high scumread is teacher and i am having an hard time finding pov where he's town in this game yet. His unvoting of menalque also makes me reconsider the teacher-menalque team - comes back up my mind that they kinda switched slots on my train.