Mafiascum.net

In post 591, mozamis wrote:

In post 560, Artemiana wrote:What do you think about A50 swapping tbone out for me

world of WIFOM. Could be him trying to make scumArte! look town ,Or Almost making townArte! look scum etc etc

The thing with this is unless they were playing the long game of distancing it doesn't make sense because A50 didn't have any reason to believe he was the elimination at the time of the council.

I think it honestly could have just been stalling the council decision since it was clear no scumhunting was happening until the decision was made and we were getting close to deadline

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: Now of course, there are risks to that plan. One of you all could decide to no-kill. I felt that was highly unlikely given the information we had (namely 1 scum vs 7 townies, no-killing does nothing for your win condition). But there are risks with every plan.

Clearly this flaw to the plan is more than you thought it was because unless we chose the right target for the heal then someone no killing is exactly what happened. No matter which plan we followed, scum deciding to no-kill gives no good info.

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: Anyway from my perspective, BM was against a plan that could have potentially either cleared myself or Raya, or confirmed that one of the three of us was scum to the rest of you. To be fair this plan wasn't Raya's preference either, so I won't speak for her whether she would have been okay with this idea.

Just to be clear, if it wasn't for the above flaw I would've been more than happy with this plan, but I saw it less likely to give us info than just targeting someone we thought was scum.

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: Raya, I don't mean to misrepresent and say this was entirely BM's idea, as you had wanted to use the track and protect in a similar manner, but I have to call out what I see.

All good

In post 611, Nono wrote:problem with 602 (above) is t-bone's no doc plan is not bad, getting info on whether it's no-kill or not is useful,, it's just not useful for much else
painting it as that piviotal,, don't think it should be, leans scum
this i don't understand,, perhaps explained by perspective difference

In post 602, T-Bone wrote:If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum

This is exactly what my stance was. I do agree that the no doc plan was not bad and in hindsight I do kind of wish we didn't use it. But I didn't see tracking one of us in the council giving the info he claimed it would

HEAL: Raya, Enchant, Art
I kind of like this now.
Enchant for hammering, Art for being removed by A50

In post 586, Battle Mage wrote:Since I don't see any reason not to claim our results, I shall.

Last night we tracked Yessiree and protected me. so either scum no-killed or tried to kill me. But Yessirree went nowhere, so I'm bumping them slightly down the list of suspects. We should've tested whether some players would have thought of the no-kill option (i.e. if Yesiree-scum would have killed last night, the result could clear them). Nothing really worth sharing from the PT although we had a good discussion. Main point of interest was T-Bone coming up with an odd idea for the night actions which would have guaranteed us no information (not that we achieved much better) and Raya being pretty balanced and moderate.

Notwithstanding, I'm going to VOTE: T-Bone

HEAL: Battle Mage, Artemiana, Enchant

skimmed to this point, felt I had to ask - you decided to track me? Me, who was squarely in A50's pocket day 1

Are we gonna apply the fabled 1-in-3 rule against its creator here?

In post 572, mozamis wrote:Me, bone, Yessiree obvious suspects (didnt vote for Almost).
I always think scum tend not to bus, particularly when there are only two of them.
Leaving Tbone and Yesiree.
If they did bus, my main suspect would be BM as if you read Almost's ISO, there is a lot of "mentionitis" from Almost about BM.
So i guess my main suspects are BM, Yes and Tbone.

I think we lim off A50's wagon first as well, so kudos to you for spelling it out

If scum is playing the long game and bussed A50, then... (you guys sort it out because I'll be dead )

In post 579, Battle Mage wrote:

In post 572, mozamis wrote:Me, bone, Yessiree obvious suspects (didnt vote for Almost).
I always think scum tend not to bus, particularly when there are only two of them.
Leaving Tbone and Yesiree.
If they did bus, my main suspect would be BM as if you read Almost's ISO, there is a lot of "mentionitis" from Almost about BM.
So i guess my main suspects are BM, Yes and Tbone.

I partially agree. Scum bus far too often on this site of late - in terms of the overall site meta, bussing is more common than it should be. But this is an open setup where scum are hugely handicapped if they lose 1 early, so likelihood of bussing is pretty low.

So yes, I'm looking off-wagon for A50's buddy. And of those on-wagon, a more favourable slant to those who joined later (i.e. actual bussing, vs distancing when the chance of A50-elim going through was lower).

Agreed, I think it's safe to locktown Arte and BM for the pivot onto A50, and enchonker for the hammer

I must say enchant is playing a very good game If he was A50's buddy and hammered like that, so I won't humor that possibility for now

In post 581, Enchant wrote:What motivation Mafia-Almost50 have to remove Artemiana from council? If she is mafia, it's nonsense.

You'd have to think it was some sort of big brain scum move to distance himself from artemiana, by first removing her from council, then have her drive him to the ground. The possibility is so low, only the most paranoid player would think this is true.

In post 582, mozamis wrote:Although I guess Nono shouldnt be completely exonorated.
Almost could have bussed him, knowing the wagon was going nowhere. Maybe Nono bussed Almost early and dint have time to get off the wagon?
Lot of maybes...but stuff to ponder.

Nono would make the most sense to be scum if you look on-wagon.

I guess you can make the argument A50 lost interest for this game with an inactive/lurky partner so he evidently didn't put in that much effort to look town.

Raya might be right, no reason for BM to no-kill, he's better than that.

In post 633, yessiree wrote:

In post 581, Enchant wrote:What motivation Mafia-Almost50 have to remove Artemiana from council? If she is mafia, it's nonsense.

You'd have to think it was some sort of big brain scum move to distance himself from artemiana, by first removing her from council, then have her drive him to the ground. The possibility is so low, only the most paranoid player would think this is true.

I think Artemiana is town, because mafia have no motivation to allow AllTownCouncil. It's like playing with random, where you have decent chances being tracked or hit protected target. Well. It possible. But what, if you need simple do nothing to not risk?

In post 624, Raya36 wrote:

In post 588, Battle Mage wrote:

In post 585, Artemiana wrote:Raya jumped on after I started bringing A50 into the light, and after I placed a compromise vote on yessus.

that's better then. Although I'm not sure what to make of Raya being happy with T-Bone in the council today when T-Bone is definitely within the possible elim pool, and Raya was quite down on T-Bone even last night. I can live with Raya in council again, but prefer freshening it up.

Gave my reasoning above. Let me know if it makes sense or T-Bone no-killing when on council is something you think he would actually do for the towncred

It takes no sense to perform nightkill, no matter is mafia in council or no, and no matter who is this person (unless... Well. Braincells).

If Mafia in Council, he of course know who is tracked, but if this person dies, it's like screaming "I AM IN COUNCIL" and we can eluminate 4 people, which enough to killoff everyone in this Council. Blatant Suicide. No.

If Mafia outside Council, then again, there's big reason to not nightkill, because chances to quess who was tracked is low, and if you kill someone other, person tracked will be confirmed as Not-Mafia for rest of the game. It's not what mafia want.

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: Let me share with ya'll the "weird plan" BM is trying to discredit and why I think he outed himself.

First off, after deliberation, we went ultimately, Battle Mage's choices for night actions. Tracking yessiree, protecting Battle Mage. Not my favorite course of action (as you'll see why in a second).

I wanted to protect no one, precisely to prevent what has happened to open Day 2 (WIFOM over the no-kill).

I'm not sure if it's really WIFOM? It's uncertainty between 2 scenarios - scum no killing or scum killing me. Had we not outted the no-kill rationale instantly, we could have sorted between players who theoretically might have no-killed (presumably the majority?) and those who wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, last night wasn't hugely informative, and I'm not selling it as such. But it was clearly better than your plan which was to just not use the abilities at all and guarantee no information.

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: I wanted to protect no one and track one of myself/Raya/BM. Why did I want this course of action? Because if someone got killed, it cleared whomever we tracked. If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum (which from my perspective as town is an auto-win on Day 2 or 3).

I'm being kind with "weird plan" out of courtesy, but I'm genuinely baffled that you're still pitching this as a good idea after both Raya and I explained last night why it wasn't. Firstly because, as Enchant noted in the first post of the day, no-kill was a reasonable play for scum, especially if they were off-council and didn't want to risk being tracked to the kill (i.e. a no-kill doesn't prove anything about the alignment of council members). Secondly, tracking within those on the council is pointless because if one of us was scum, we would 100% just no-kill knowing we were tracked. Thirdly, not using the protection would be a complete waste, given there are highly likely town who would be obvious NK targets.

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: Now of course, there are risks to that plan. One of you all could decide to no-kill. I felt that was highly unlikely given the information we had (namely 1 scum vs 7 townies, no-killing does nothing for your win condition). But there are risks with every plan.

if any of us was scum and agreed as the track-target, we would know we were going to be tracked and not-kill, obviously. anything else would be game-throwing.

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: Anyway from my perspective, BM was against a plan that could have potentially either cleared myself or Raya, or confirmed that one of the three of us was scum to the rest of you. To be fair this plan wasn't Raya's preference either, so I won't speak for her whether she would have been okay with this idea.

Your idea wouldn't have proved anything either way, and Raya agreed, which is why we decided collectively (i.e. this wasn't a BM-decision) to actually use our abilities.

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: The fact that BM is trying to discredit me based on conversations that none of you can see is ridiculous. That's not something town would do.

I refer you to Jigsaw's Revenge (large theme game), where I was in a neighbourhood and tunnelled all my fellow neighbours to death. It was a trainwreck, but the principle remains of not trusting people blindly because you're in a non-AI PT with them. Also, it isn't just me who can attest to what was said - Raya was there too. And you have like, admitted what I was said was true, so what's the issue?

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: BM is also trying to explain away the kill by saying he got targeted (another reason I wanted to protect no one so no one could claim this).

On the contrary, I'm not. I've been clear that I think no-kill is a reasonable possibility, although the reason for using the protection on me last night was also because there was a reasonable chance I would be killed. I was actually the first person to flag the prospect of scum no-killing in the PT.

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: The Doctor ability in this set-up is a red herring, since three people know the outcome of that action each night.

And yet you don't realise that also applies in the same vein to the tracker ability?

In post 602, T-Bone wrote: I feel like BM's shade of my plan, calling it weird and saying it would provide no information, comes from BM understanding that his plan would provide no information (and was designed as such to provide no info). I feel like his goal is to make you think scum tried to kill him so he can earn a soft clear for a few days. That is what I get from his posts, especially the one I quoted.

As noted above, I was the first person to emphasise the prospect of scum no-killing being a likely outcome - it was you who has argued that it is unlikely - so it doesn't make sense that I'd be using the fact I got protected as a means to towncred. Additionally, why would hypothetical BM-scum need a soft clear for a few days? I'm not likely to be elimmed in the near future given we need to work through the off-wagon pool. I'm not following your logic here at all - not only is it wrong, but it also doesn't make much sense and feels like a real long shot from your perspective. Which in turn, doesn't look great because, in a T-Bone-scum world, you need to chase eliminations from the people on the A50 elim.

Notwithstanding any of the above, I don't know why you're acting so defensive now about an idea which you relented on so easily last night (presumably recognising that it wasn't the most robust)? If you're town, this game should be an easy win, and surely you realised that being in the council (thanks to A50) wouldn't clear you from suspicion.

In post 605, mozamis wrote:So T Bone is town then. Ridiculous "effort post" from ScumTbone! otherwise, Can't really see it. Town.

I mean if TBone is scum, TBone has to effort right? T-Bone is one of 3 players off-wagon, the likelihood is that 1 of them is scum, and so T-Bone would need to both turn around opinion on himself, and try to shade people who elimmed his hypothetical partner.

I definitely drew the opposite conclusion to you here.

In post 607, mozamis wrote:Kill me now lol

if you're scum, you can legit just concede here. it's pretty much unwinnable.

In post 608, mozamis wrote:

In post 586, Battle Mage wrote:Main point of interest was T-Bone coming up with an odd idea for the night actions which would have guaranteed us no information

I see you and T-Bone as both town. I suspect T-Bone is cross with you for crticising him, hence his vote for you.
But why your vote on T-Bone, his plan didnt sound scummy? Maybe wrong, I dont know, but not scummy?

Anyway, brace yourself people for two of the games big egos pulverising the fuck out of each other...
Town v town.

I can sort of buy the idea that T-Bone is just aggressively OMGUSing anyone who criticises him, but even the vibe of that doesn't ring as town in a game where, it really wouldn't matter that much if T-Bone was town and got mis-elimmed. But there are other anomalies I've pointed out subsequently. The plan is scummy because it guaranteed depriving us of any information, and the premise on which it was based was logically flawed (i.e. no-kill means council-scum), and setting up elims under false pretenses is scummy, in a context where T-Bone scum would basically have to do something bold to have a chance of winning.

In other words, it's the kind of 'wrong' which absolutely fits the profile of T-Bone-scum.

Also I'm not sure T-Bone or I are particularly big egos?

In post 611, Nono wrote:problem with 602 (above) is t-bone's no doc plan is not bad, getting info on whether it's no-kill or not is useful,, it's just not useful for much else
painting it as that piviotal,, don't think it should be, leans scum
this i don't understand,, perhaps explained by perspective difference

In post 602, T-Bone wrote:If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum

I think I've explained this above now, but to reiterate it makes zero sense in this setup, and this situation to NOT use the tracker ability when it is effectively a cop. I'm less precious about the protective, but it does seem a bit counter-intuitive to give scum a free-kill.

In post 622, Raya36 wrote:

In post 567, Battle Mage wrote:

In post 534, Enchant wrote:As expected, mafia just skipped.

Well. We can get around 3 free elims, before setup turn in vanilla. So, let's choose Council and kill someone.

Yeah I think that's likely, but not guaranteed. Although I think there was some marginal sorting value in not spelling it out.

In post 537, yessiree wrote:For that to actually happen, 4 players will have to throw the game first, and the 5th player insane enough to hammer both

throw the game is an interesting choice of phrase.

In post 538, Raya36 wrote:I'd be ok with any of these councils

HEAL: BM, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone
HEAL: Raya, BM, Enchant

why Raya-TBone-Enchant? Nothing about yesterday or last night makes me feel better about TBone alignment-wise.

T-Bone knew who we as a council chose to track and heal. That means scum!T-Bone knew he was not being tracked and was safe to make a kill. Scum!T-Bone also knew who to avoid because he knew who was being healed.

1) T-Bone is scum and had a perfect clear and safe shot but chose not to for the towncred because it doesn't make sense to not take that shot in his position for any other reason. Especially knowing he may not be in the same position again.

2) T-Bone is simply just town.

I don't think that's an unreasonable inference to make, but the fact you're making it, is itself vindication of the strategy in scenario 1. I feel a no-kill makes marginally more sense for T-Bone-scum than you-scum, because TBone was desperately needing the towncred after how Day 1 played out, whereas you weren't (and could afford to make the kill).

So I think your logic speaks more to a T-Bone who is aiming to make it to Day 3/4 only, but not a T-Bone who wants to win.

Regardless, I'm hard declining any Council with T-Bone (or anyone off-wagon) in it. I'm open to hearing alternative pitches on the elim today.

In post 614, T-Bone wrote:

In post 611, Nono wrote:problem with 602 (above) is t-bone's no doc plan is not bad, getting info on whether it's no-kill or not is useful,, it's just not useful for much else
painting it as that piviotal,, don't think it should be, leans scum
this i don't understand,, perhaps explained by perspective difference

In post 602, T-Bone wrote:If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum

Nice job hammering town. Guess we know who's scum after all!

ugh no.

In post 618, Artemiana wrote:HEAL: Tbone, enchant, arte

nope

In post 623, Raya36 wrote:

In post 581, Enchant wrote:What motivation Mafia-Almost50 have to remove Artemiana from council? If she is mafia, it's nonsense.

This is a really good point that I overlooked

yes that's true

In post 629, yessiree wrote:

In post 586, Battle Mage wrote:Since I don't see any reason not to claim our results, I shall.

Last night we tracked Yessiree and protected me. so either scum no-killed or tried to kill me. But Yessirree went nowhere, so I'm bumping them slightly down the list of suspects. We should've tested whether some players would have thought of the no-kill option (i.e. if Yesiree-scum would have killed last night, the result could clear them). Nothing really worth sharing from the PT although we had a good discussion. Main point of interest was T-Bone coming up with an odd idea for the night actions which would have guaranteed us no information (not that we achieved much better) and Raya being pretty balanced and moderate.

Notwithstanding, I'm going to VOTE: T-Bone

HEAL: Battle Mage, Artemiana, Enchant

skimmed to this point, felt I had to ask - you decided to track me? Me, who was squarely in A50's pocket day 1

it was a choice of 3 people who didn't elim A50. Mozamis grew on me as Day 1 closed (and has continued to do so today), and T-Bone was on council so we couldn't target him. But the fact you didn't move last night counts for something.

In post 635, T-Bone wrote:

Unvote

Raya might be right, no reason for BM to no-kill, he's better than that.

I think for that reason all of us on council are likely town. I mean, clearly I would've killed. I'm sure you would have, and same goes for BM.
And I think Enchant and Art are town too. So the PoE is quite small for me at this point

In post 637, Enchant wrote:

In post 624, Raya36 wrote:

In post 588, Battle Mage wrote:

In post 585, Artemiana wrote:Raya jumped on after I started bringing A50 into the light, and after I placed a compromise vote on yessus.

that's better then. Although I'm not sure what to make of Raya being happy with T-Bone in the council today when T-Bone is definitely within the possible elim pool, and Raya was quite down on T-Bone even last night. I can live with Raya in council again, but prefer freshening it up.

Gave my reasoning above. Let me know if it makes sense or T-Bone no-killing when on council is something you think he would actually do for the towncred

It takes no sense to perform nightkill, no matter is mafia in council or no, and no matter who is this person (unless... Well. Braincells).

If Mafia in Council, he of course know who is tracked, but if this person dies, it's like screaming "I AM IN COUNCIL" and we can eluminate 4 people, which enough to killoff everyone in this Council. Blatant Suicide. No.

If Mafia outside Council, then again, there's big reason to not nightkill, because chances to quess who was tracked is low, and if you kill someone other, person tracked will be confirmed as Not-Mafia for rest of the game. It's not what mafia want.

I don't think I'm following your point for mafia on council no killing. If mafia was on council they wouldn't kill the person being tracked

In post 642, Battle Mage wrote:

In post 622, Raya36 wrote:

In post 567, Battle Mage wrote:

In post 534, Enchant wrote:As expected, mafia just skipped.

Well. We can get around 3 free elims, before setup turn in vanilla. So, let's choose Council and kill someone.

Yeah I think that's likely, but not guaranteed. Although I think there was some marginal sorting value in not spelling it out.

In post 537, yessiree wrote:For that to actually happen, 4 players will have to throw the game first, and the 5th player insane enough to hammer both

throw the game is an interesting choice of phrase.

In post 538, Raya36 wrote:I'd be ok with any of these councils

HEAL: BM, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone
HEAL: Raya, BM, Enchant

why Raya-TBone-Enchant? Nothing about yesterday or last night makes me feel better about TBone alignment-wise.

T-Bone knew who we as a council chose to track and heal. That means scum!T-Bone knew he was not being tracked and was safe to make a kill. Scum!T-Bone also knew who to avoid because he knew who was being healed.

1) T-Bone is scum and had a perfect clear and safe shot but chose not to for the towncred because it doesn't make sense to not take that shot in his position for any other reason. Especially knowing he may not be in the same position again.

2) T-Bone is simply just town.

I don't think that's an unreasonable inference to make, but the fact you're making it, is itself vindication of the strategy in scenario 1. I feel a no-kill makes marginally more sense for T-Bone-scum than you-scum, because TBone was desperately needing the towncred after how Day 1 played out, whereas you weren't (and could afford to make the kill).

So I think your logic speaks more to a T-Bone who is aiming to make it to Day 3/4 only, but not a T-Bone who wants to win.

Regardless, I'm hard declining any Council with T-Bone (or anyone off-wagon) in it. I'm open to hearing alternative pitches on the elim today.

Yeah, I can agree there. If T-Bone actually is scum then you're right that he has the highest chance of the 3 of us to no kill

In post 614, T-Bone wrote:

In post 611, Nono wrote:problem with 602 (above) is t-bone's no doc plan is not bad, getting info on whether it's no-kill or not is useful,, it's just not useful for much else
painting it as that piviotal,, don't think it should be, leans scum
this i don't understand,, perhaps explained by perspective difference

In post 602, T-Bone wrote:If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum

Nice job hammering town. Guess we know who's scum after all!

mb, yes, council first above all else,, though took care to make sure i wasn't close to hammering, don't pull that)