KTaNE [game over!]

[Dwlee99]

Sure go for it

[Bell]

VP baltar’s posts give me incredibly mixed feelings.
There first vote made me wanna vote them.
And then the rest of their posts were chill and cool and good.

Are they using their trauma for good or evil

Dwlee99

>:(

I mean, what have you done that I should read into and sort you from? Like, if you expect a TR from "IM ENTERING AND VOTING ANDANTE" think again, cause like, I've been on top of this game, trying my best to sort people, and you literally just "don't care! andante maf!!" like, makes me feel like I'm wasting my time if you are town, so... not a great feeling, cause if I said something you hate, again, feel free to point it out, ask questions...

but yeah, got stuff to do, and if I didn't post my thoughts, yall are getting like an entirely new readslist tomorrow..

Andante, psychoanalyze this post for me please.

And by that I mean, explain where all this angst is coming from.

I'mma go read a book now.
Tbh, I'm somehow not town reading anyone yet.
I have some eh scum reads tho.

I would kill to have more town reads right about now

Town

Bell

Lol. What are your scum reads?

Baltar, Cephrir.

VOTE: lukewarm

Sure

Trown!!!
As a certain worm with a phd likes to say.

Gotta go to work. Gunna run late.
Nvm on vp baltar scum.
Too wholesome. Must be town.

First time replacing??? It's like mafia, but better in *almost* every conceivable way!

Im not sure I buy Luke as scum but I'll leave it at that

Why are you leaving it at that

My experience with MT has not resulted in me getting a read off of them yet. But my experience is that they’re pretty hedgy as town, so I don’t agree with GL.

I think this more nuanced statement is more true than the previous one. Not sure if scumz MT tho.

I wish I were posting like this as scum. But no. And it should be decently apparent to people.

It's pretty apparent yeah.

I feel bad that I scum read baltar for their effort post.
The reason I am compelled to scum read it, is because their reads, read like characterizations first and sorting people second.

I’m also confused about their positive views on Titus. It’s not all bad, the characterization sort of stops in the second half of the list, but I’m not terribly sure what to make of it. Or why some reads are there, that are, essentially filler for “dude is lurking” etc

Hi Baltar, are you scum?
You have to tell me If you are.

You got the reference. Though i have no idea where the reference originated.

Also cephrir continues to bleh, GL continues to be bleh, bulge is bleh, the fire guy is bleh.
Bleh bleh bleh.

we can kill somebody but i call dibs on it not being me

I called dibs on it being you even before you replaced in.

Also cephrir continues to bleh, GL continues to be bleh, bulge is bleh, the fire guy is bleh.
Bleh bleh bleh.

Feel like we kind of agree on the game except fire. Setting luke aside, are there specific things about fire that bug you?

Already spoke about this, it's very much a lukewarm scum read I have, though their wry observations and snide insinuations (this is a movie reference, not actually something they did on the latter half) isn't helping.

You got the reference. Though i have no idea where the reference originated.

Also cephrir continues to bleh, GL continues to be bleh, bulge is bleh, the fire guy is bleh.
Bleh bleh bleh.

Maybe you just think I'm a bleh person.

Uh huh.

I'm willing to bet the day 1 elimination on fireisredsir

I mean, I'm pretty convinced VP is maf... is VP your partner, and you're trying to distract us or something? like, why not VP?

I don't really think Bell!scum sees VPB!scum post an effort wall-post readlist and then decides to call it out for being trash

This is true, I don't usually have the willingness to slap down my own partners when they put in earnest efforts.
Uh, assuming they're scum this game, which I'm not really. I've been really up and down on them all game.

Pretty much, one of the things about Baltar that I find sort of difficult to parse (in that I naturally TR people for this) is that they seem to or tend to try collaborating on players they're signaling that they think are town.

It's hard to tell if they're tactically buddying certain players or their are just certain players they're particularly interested in hearing their opinions. They've also put in a lot of effort in engagement this game.
I do think how Catboi recently commented on Baltar points to there being +funny points to VP baltar being scum because I tend to think that Town Peta tends to dead center scum in their reads. But that's for a wry universe in a narrative sense more than an actual take on my part, though maybe there is something to that. If you're waiting me to come to a conclusion or to some kind of point, you're going to be here a while.

I kind of want CSF/Andante/Catboi/Me for my bomb team

An aside:
Pooky Posse, Pooky personality cult, Pookybomb squad.
sigh. I shouldn't realy see anything into that, but it always triggers me a little when I see him do that, jut due to how many times they've done it as scum, even though I think they do it as town(?) too.

Huh? I'm not following what you're meaning here?

Pattern recognition. Pooky tends to do like these membership lists in games. Pooky has also been scum in a higher number of games than rand with me. It’s a bad correlation. Ignore it.

read like characterizations first and sorting people second.

What does this mean though? At first I thought maybe I knew what you're saying, like I am giving personality traits or something...but I don't think I'm doing that and I'm not really sure what you actually mean

No, you got it right you can disagree but I think the first half town part is more about characteristics than solve.

I still dunno where the fire resistance is from, we’re 47 pages in. Time to kill somebody.

I would like to see you sell me on fire and not just luke. It feels kind of bad faith for us to lim him solely on some luke reactions you didn't like.

Fire's interactions this game don't look that scummy to me, so I'm having a hard time getting the tunnel on him. (Yes, I know you said this is a luke thing, I'm just saying!)

…why are you bringing up fairness in an unfair world. It’s not something I’m going to engage you about. I don’t apply what is just or fair to games of mafia regarding player alignment. If a player miseliminated a bunch of players I do not think “it’s only fair they die now.” And thinking they must be scum for pushing town wagons a lot.

I do not think how Baltar is posting right now is scummy btw. But I am very weak to aTe. I also know saying that is not going to be helpful.

I do think that if baltar is town here this is a case of people seeing a player be different and failing to adequately solve for the player when they give you a true explanation for their behavior.

If they’re scum, lol myb for not being very helpful. I’m not terribly against it next game day tho.

Sure, that’s a plausible explanation.

That’s sure yes. But you’re calling me lazy and that makes me sad. Even though it’s true.

Based off of recent experience with MT, I’m simply of a mixed opinion. Some town pings, some scum pings.
Tone is right on. But not as persistent as I’d expect.
The number of votes on them though is weird. Though I get the vp-Luke thing is splitting the wagon. Second highest still weird.

Koba is what I call a cutt throat. They are motivated to win and enjoy winning.
But they came in here as an alt so I don’t know what they were going for in this game, I also never learned if they stress more as scum or if they left this game specifically because of their alignment plist or something else.

If it had been Koba, No alt. I would’ve been scum reading them this game.

Titus for the love of god. What are you doing this game?

This is a good town imo. It feels sort of like there are a bunch of sharks in here.
No idea if we're gunna get owned tho. There's always a risk of scum getting out of the tank.

I know my own alignment and I'm confident that I can convince anybody that I'm town. There's no reason to sort myself.

I actually don't think you're posting like scum though.

I'm not sure if you're posting like town either, but I do think it's a little weird yeah. I think how you're talking to me is odd because it starts with some general premise about how you think mafia works and then you apply it poorly to my posts in addition to straw manning me. Like a normal person, I poke people until they start making sense. Or they don't. Or I forget.

I haven't a clue why you think I think I don't care about your results or whatever. You just seem to be thinking that I'm thinking from a less charitable position than I actually am and speaking to me from that point of view.
I don't get it. But I don't want you to explain it either, because I'm not sure it would help me read you anyway, tbh. I'm mostly interested in you going to bed and getting some rest and catching up like you did in your catch up in your time in a way conducive to your happiness, satisfaction and personal health.

If nothing else this exchange made me think Frogster is town.
I'm not sure they'd be willing to embarrass themselves like this as scum and I can't imagine them bussing a buddy like this either.
So that just leaves Frog town.

So that's cool.

Pedit: I know this is anti-town of me, but I'm not required to do this. They're just baiting you and you need to ignore it and go to sleep.

I'm not even sure it makes sense for you not to realize he's baiting you I'm pretty sure you've played more games of mafia than I have.
So I'm confused again.

Ignore me too, this is also bait in a fashion.

The frogster needs to stop trying to hero solve talking point is, not a good talking point.

@cephrir: than do something that resembles scum hunting. I’m not going to heal you if you don’t.

bell who do you think is scummy besides me

and what makes my list strange?

Cephrir, dwlee, Mala.


It’s haphazard and the placement of two PoE lists is confusing for no discernible reason.

I'm more interested in you addressing why you did a huge catch up post this game when you've replaced into other games and didn't do that or chose to go about it differently.

I didn’t replace into this game. And I have not done anything I haven’t done as Town in other games. Check again.

You're right.

[Bell]

Give me a bit to put the text in Mother’s Day and going to grandma’s soon so I’ll put words to quotes after. For now quotes.

[Andante]

I’m still cool with dying as long as pooky dies right after.

Isn't that exactly what Mena said before the self wagon?

[Bell]

Yes. But I figure the more people that say it the harder it will be to ignore. I personally don’t think Pooky is going to make it out this day phase, but if they do, I wanna make it clear they should die. I’ve said it before and I still mean it. I didn’t intend it, but I hope the Gl spare shook people’s read of you and enchant enough to kill pooky this DP.

Also, I just mistapped on phone and lost my second quote wall. Rip. It’s the weekend now so I’ll have time to spare to town case myself but apologies for the delay anyway.

[Bell]

Oh. I don’t self-vote. Rather, I rarely do and really only for mechanics or as a self-aware joke.
It’s pretty anti-win con to self vote imo.

[Bell]

For the record this is wrong both theoretically (confirmation bias) and empirically (it’s very rare for anyone to have perfect reads, so what’s more likely to happen is that you end up limming a few scum and then a bunch of town that person with overall good reads thought seemed scummy).

Nobody in this game bar maybe pooky has reads that are accurate enough to let follow-the-leader be maybe game winning.

For sure. I'm not saying you follow anyone to end game. Just saying, we hit scum yesterday,

why are we ego fighting over the play today

? We have good reason to lim in the expert pool and dwlee/me have had some correct reads this game. You let the dice roll on that.

This feels like the opposite of what you said, but uh, this conversation about an opinion a cowboy avatar has is very much a derail of more fun topics like who the scum are and why they're scum.

Is anybody townreading dwlee on play btw?

Not by play. But they’ve dug themselves out of a hole based on their approach this day phase to SM and Baltar. They were pretty deep into scum read territory at the beginning of this day phase for me and now they’re neutral to Lean town.

Disagree with dwlee’s take they did not get much town cred for that if a bus.
@andante: yeah, I get what you mean but it was done well. It seemed realistic with little bursts of motivation and thoughts here and there.

I felt all three of Pooky/Ceph/Titus were townie in the hood and I think if scum in any of them were trying to get rid of me they could have just openly scumread me and blown me up without much consequence

I think Baltar is scummier than Dwlee

Okay

Waiting on VP.

Vp’s response to this is silly, for the simple reason that given the amount of time they had, the whole thing should click for them that dwlee is scum unless their scumdar is entirely broken. Dwlee has enough posts to click.
I am weirded out that delete softened their response too.

I guess auto correct is calling sales sales dwlee99 wow it won’t even ducking autocorrect the same way twice.
Have at you autocorrect. You’re the real enemy.

Sure. But statistically. You’re probably wrong and torpedoing the chance of getting a scum lim this day phase with a scum team that has been blatantly trying to get you miseliminated for day phases.but okay. Work it out. Maybe you’ll convince me.

*insert Mandatory Pooky paranoia*
Straight up position reversal sucks. And even if I’m wrong and they’d suspected vp all along I still say the same.

Mistyx would you like to comment on being the shoe in for an elimination once dwlee or Baltar flips scum?

I don’t think anyone made a mistake with the bomb and I think the scum team blew up the doc and this argument is terrible and remains terrible.

Look dwlee. It’s depressing, but somehow I can’t figure out which of you it is.
It’s incredibly poor play on my part because I’m usually pretty good with 50/50’s or rather. I’m 100% on them. But something isn’t clicking and I can see either of you being scum and it sucks bur it’s also true so deal.

I’m thinking.

Two things that bother me.
1. Pooky’s 180 positioning on baltar.
2. Baltar not really factoring I’m scum team’s plan until I pointed out that their perspective is messed up. There isn’t much like ego or a story in their mind.

There are more things that bother me. But I’m going to sleep.

I was also hoping baltar would drown the thread in words, something they seem perfectly capable of doing, but haven’t really. So that’s…probably irrelevant and has to do with their availability nevermind.

Pooky said the scum team was trying to kill VP Baltar by adding him to the defusals repeatedly.
Now he’s just speaking the scum party line that he argued first.

It’s sad I have to say this, but that was not me being informed that this was in fact the case and I am not in fact scum.

Andante.
I love you, but please do not try to clear dwlee if BP baltar flips scum or town

Oh this is a lot better from GL.
I guess I was wrong. But this is what I meant. More Aggro with conclusions.

Did you seriously fucking hint what your role was to someone you thought was scum when you could have let them try to blow you up instead or something

Like bro if you're town why would you not just trade for scum there ahhhh

Got town another defusal didn't I?

Nothing is stopping us from. Limming mistyx scum right now

This is not a good argument when the scum literally control who gets picked.

Their in thread/PT behavior was consistent with their claim though.

I think this is because you either prepared your fake claim way in advance or you’re just what you say you are.
I just don’t know what to say baltar, your reasoning and justifications are difficult to swallow. But i still want to vote dwlee. Just based off of emotions.

No Andante. I’m not being sarcastic. Pooky flipped my “pooky is scum switch”
Like, 20 pages ago but it feels irrelevant when we have dwlee and baltar to choose from rn.

It was at the least consistent with a town perspective.

Are you serious.
Baltar the reason nobody wants to go after mistx right now is because you or dwlee is scum.

It’s probabilistic neglect to kill outside of those two.

I don’t think Titus was a weird pick since from a certain lense they were obvious town. I just couldn’t let them pass until I was confident and I didn’t have time to be confident.
I ended up picking three town reads though. From baltar review, still in progress.

Anyone else have Baltar associative insights?

I'd agree with the "not having time" excuse seeming odd.. I saw no situation in which we should've kept Titus alive.. like what, keep her here just to yeet her today?? it's very odd for scum to just give us Titus like that, means the poe that's mostly agreed upon is likely wrong.. but I'm down with yeeting Mistyx today, also,

Titus was very confident on Mistyx maf

VOTE: Mistyx

this is so incredibly far from true

titus wanted me dead for VCA that was all

No, Titus very much wanted you dead in neighborhood chat.
You were her top priority.

Ngl. I’m with ceph and Andante on this due to pure momentum.

Momentum is not a good thing in and of itself

I wasn’t saying it was.
If anything it’s just me being intellectually lazy and not wanting to have to deal with this madness and just defaulting to previous patterns. Because I can’t cope.

We hammering misty?
Has misty claimed yet?
When is it a good time to mass claim?

Before killing Misty I want a claim out of them.
I get real upset when people get blind eliminated.

VOTE: Misty

100% killing mena today. I can justify some of the moves he made, but all of them points a huge arrow directly at him.

Yay. I read cephrir as town and they were town. Isn’t that nice.

I have nothing to say other than it would be lovely if in future you (collective) could address the multiple points on why I don't make sense as scum before limming me, instead of looking at them after the fact and going "oh yeah, he had a point actually"

You defended baltar. You defended misty and appeared to be arguing at a more urgent tone than someone coming off a scum elim would be by pushing other eliminations. It’s just a burden of proficiency. One mistake is fine. Two major ones with obvious intentionality to both I just think, probably scum. It depends on the player.
But you are one where I think it’s valid.
I suppose the fact you didn’t concede points heavily away from you being scum. But I am not negotiating with the past. I wanna be clear you can’t really change my mind here. Just give us who are scum if you have an idea.

I have zero issues with your lim pool.

Pooky just didn’t give much reason. I associate a lack of reasons until mid-late game with their scum game.

Their bussing points away from it though. But I consider them fluffy busses. With pillows for wheels.

I mean, it’s probably just mena and I’m confident that Pooky will defend themselves well regardless of their alignment.
We can discuss it if it matters then and we’re both alive.

Baltar had a tremendous number of associatives and everything up to that point, showed he was a fighter with high activity.
It was not good for the scum team that he didn’t manage 2-miselims to his one.

Sure. @the concede thing. I feel you might be saltier too.

Further arguing with a dead cat: Misty had an ability that secures 3 eliminations and had by far the most powerful role in the scum team, I hope.

No, I don’t, because you’ve been consistent with the pooky push and mind meld.
Though I feel like I’m a hungry for affirmation sort of guy and it’s pathetic tbh. Of me, I mean. I think it’s a weakness.

I discovered that I thought babysitters were just bodyguards, but in actuality they work like a doc except if the baby sitter is killed the baby is killed as well.

also mena is legit the towniest person here, so I'm not voting mena

K.
I’m going to though and then I’m probably following Mena’s elimination list to the letter if they flip town.
I except for my elim, because, tbh. I can obv town and I already did tbh.
Some of my interactions with baltar clear me. In addition to some of my defenses of players. But eh. Cross that bridge when we get to it as already said.

VOTE: Pookythemagicalbear

He’s not going to live to end game. No matter how much effort he puts in.

Want to be clear there.

We can kill Mena later if pooky flips town.
But I want pooky out.

Please don’t apologize for having thoughts/fake thoughts mena. Nasty bear is trying to scare people away. But it’s all bullshit. Pooky is a nice bear. He’s just possessed by a mafia ghost.

All right settle down everyone.
Emotions got hot and so on.
But this advantages scum. So if we could keep things non-toxic and cordial, My win con would appreciate it.

Would it really count if we blew up GL though, because he’s in the pool.
Getting 3 out of 4 of your suspects is a dream come true for this stage of the game.

Sorry, need to reword. I want a guarantee. That pooky eventually gets eliminated this game. It can be now or end game. But at some point people need to vote him until he is eliminated. Got it?

Oh. Yeah that’s a meltdown all right and he was town there? He was more conducive at the beginning of the game.

Yea and Strange is scum

Excellent point. Let me know who you want me to vote and when!

VOTE: Mena

Sure!

Also, just keep listening to everybody else on my alignment, because they're right.

VOTE: Pookythemagicalbear

It’s not Dwlee. Posts are too natural.
It’s not CSF. There are too many posts.

Sanity checked’d.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I skimmed icebox's ISO from that Shakespeare game and it doesn't sound very similar here. He's wittier as town.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm still good with yeeting enchant

Then make the case?

[Dwlee99]

Who is icebox

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Bells hydra

[Bell]

*DEEP INHALATION*
Get ready for wifom and a bunch of words, baby.

1. I'm not scum because Pooky and Catboi are right in that I'm not confident as scum and the last two times I was scum I didn't tunnel anyone and I was a lot more passive. Not from a solve perspective or an input perspective, but from an aggression perspective. Also, I made multiple posts in this game this game that are basically, "I'm town and I know it and I'm confident I can show it" and for the most part people have correctly read me this game.
2. I'm not scum because I don't interact with Baltar the way I interacted with them. I don't get out in front of VP baltar and say, hey, the giant read wall effort post you just made, before anyone else reacts, I'm going to say it's suspiciously like something I would write as scum!.
I don't get confused when they try to to get out of their 1v1 with with Dwlee, I think my trejectory on Dwlee is also subtle in that they slowly won me over and I gave Baltar a harder and harder time for not having the perspective I would expect them to have if they were town.
I created a point of view in my head of how I think town would act and then applied it to Baltar and found it weird as heck.
3. In my dance game that ended, my interactions with Cephrir and Mala are very in line with my approach to both of them here. I also don't get fixated on "Nobody gets cred for Mala" train of thought. Also, Baltar would be the scum partner that I've interacted the most with in my last 3 scum games combined with all of my scum partners.
4. I don't put pieces together from old thoughts and things I was stuck on from earlier in the game as scum, without having some sort of point to it. A lot of it was inane and not relevant to any win con, but was just me puzzle unraveling.
5. I can't imagine a world where I say Mena dies today, scum case them and then 180 onto Pooky. A thing to note is that I'm lazy and obsessed with consistency when I'm scum. Here, I've directly contradicted myself multiple times and, given the results point directly towards me not playing toward a scum win con.
6. I certainly don't, if the scum team was informed that there were no investigatives in the game. Openly question why nobody has investigated Baltar to call a possible scum bluff, also note that my play in regards to this and how I approached Baltar when their view wasn't aligning with my understanding of them if they were town isn't something I would do because it's complicated, it's not clear to others what I'm trying to get at and seems focused primarily on trying to understand where Baltar is coming from and not as threatre for an audience.
7. I night kill every chance I get, every time it's available and would argue for this early and a lot.
8. I probably would have been more focused on who to heal rather than having it as an afterthought, lol.
9. I've given some players a significantly hard time and instead of holding them to it or trying to push their eliminations through on a particular argument, I backed off, especially if someone had a point. But I didn't always do this, and when I did back off, it was more often on town than on scum. Note my GL trajectory
10. I don't just go with the flow on Misty and completely ignore the Mena/CSF thing. That's was an opportunity to at least, pretend to be town and think about it openly, even if I just go back and push Misty again as scum, I don't do without politely acknowledging the two people arguing back and forth about it.
11. My back and forth with Mena would be odd for scum me to do.
12. Don't think I town bin Catboi out of left field for a self-conscious comment they made.
There's other stuff. I could keep writing and I expect a lot of this to be dismantled or ignored by Pooky/reasonable people who point out that this is a whole load of wifom.
If you meta me I can be remarkably consistent if you pay attention, but I wouldn't make these kinds of arguments if I were scum because I would probably start with the most AI stuff I can think of, not the approaches I would actually take. I don't expect people to meta me, but if they did I would expect some contradictions, but I'm not too worried because there simply shouldn't be major, foundational contradictions because I'm town after all.
13. Really don't think I try to save GL here. I was also, relatively outside of the pocket of possible elims anyway and directly undermined that by asking Andante and Enchant to do something townie in presentation. Pooky has tried to dismantle the very idea what they did was townie. But goodness knows I don't pay attention to *any* of the mechanics he's talking about. As town I'm focused on one day at a time and as scum I'm focused on surviving but don't put much time out for mechanical thinking.

AMA: About my play this game, a particular action or choice I made.
Except Pooky. No AMA's for that one.

[Bell]

Oh wow, this case is shitter than usual. I should probably have just waited and put the quotes with the comments.

Oh well! Deal.

[Bell]

As for the "saving kills thing"
Outright, wouldn't have noticed.
Probably would have argued too that the game state was more important then the mechanical thing, but eh. I lack confidence and could easily have bent my spine to allow it, but immediately start killing when all my partners were dead....
and I certainly wouldn't have shot cephrir, lol.

[Bell]

I skimmed icebox's ISO from that Shakespeare game and it doesn't sound very similar here. He's wittier as town.

Ouch. But the stress doesn't make for good jokes yeah. But that's very left field of you.

[Bell]

and subjective as hell, lol.

[Bell]

Ah, the reason I wouldn't have shot Cephrir, is because I have a general idea of when they're coming for someone based on my understanding of them. They tend to undermine a player before going after them in earnest. Rather it starts with undermining before escalating to a scum read. Though, sometimes Ceph does this to their own partner, so. But anyway! No warning signs that Cephrir wanted me dead this game. So no reason to shoot them.
But he's dead and I would have the hypothetical perspective of scum here and them of town, so from that perspective.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Do you have some games where your reads weren't good as town

[Bell]

Do you have some games where your reads weren't good as town

Most of them?

WH13, I was tunneled On MB forever.
BloodStained I was tunneled on Spiffeh town forever. and was convinced Notscience was town.
Tenet: I was tunneled on Shelly, until they died and then my reads were decent and had something close to game winning reads, but too little too late.
Dance game: I was tunneled on Dunnstral but then they went insane and I changed my mind. Before going after Andante, before Mylo wrote a big ass meta case against them in thread. I only had good reads by the end and I was mostly trying to demoralize Datisi because I dive their notes PT and know they have imposter syndrome.

[Bell]

There was an anon game I sort of forgot with shapes. I was tunneled on the Cabd slot befoe he repped into their slot and solved the entire game for us while calling me stupid.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Should I be concerned that you haven't tunneled anyone this game? Not as far as I can recall anyway

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Actually just remembered luke

[Bell]

You should be concerned given my absolutely unwholesome lukewarm/firebringer tunnel this game.

[Bell]

That was so bad. I'm going to be embarrassed about it forever.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I am now more confused than I was before