[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[JasonWazza]

So your saying that saving a PR till LYLO should be useless?

[StupendousMan]

Hm... I suppose they could still be able to use their powers. It would be bad for the mafia president (assuming he's a rolecop that knows who the judge is) if he spent the later portion of the game trying to convince the judge of the citizen's scumminess (so the president isn't killed by the judge) only to be denied his hammer vote. I'm just on the fence about whether or not the judge should be able to save himself, especially in lylo.

edit: readability

[JasonWazza]

A) there's 13 players, so assuming they have saved it till LYLO they have saved it at least 4 days (wait 2 scum in a 13 player?) and honestly should be able to save his own ass when it could be a SCUM OR TOWN President.
B) I agree him using it to save his own ass isn't beneficial to the setup BUT REMEMBER IT CAN STILL BE A TOWNIE PRESIDENT.

[Antihero]

@Salmonella:

I think having 4 votes is cumbersome, as having even number of votes tends to be (I'm assuming it takes 3 votes to lynch, right?). I say give the three "elected" people one vote each. The president already has the upper hand in the fact that he gets to choose who his cabinet members will be, I don't think he needs to be a double voter.

Other than that, I think it's pretty cool...

[Voodoo Lady]

• 	A	B	C
  1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
  2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Town Doctor
  3	Town Cop	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

I brought this up in 1411 and Newbie Queue QT after we realized that the town more or less autowins if the Roleblocker dies before any of the PRs do.

Unfortunately, this makes a Cop/Tracker/Goon setup possible, which while rectifying the Roleblocker problem, might be even worse for the scum.

• 	A	B	C
  1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
  2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town 1-shot Bulletproof
  3	Town Doctor	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

This setup is the best possible arrangement, in my opinion. The six possible arrangements of PRs are all pretty fair.

JK/VT/Goon: Jailkeeper is a fine role on its own, although I prefer it with other roles to fuck things up.
Roleblocker/Cop/1-Shot BP: Follow the cop is impossible, and the roleblocker makes up for the power level.
Doc/Goon/Tracker: The mafia could just no-kill if the Tracker attempted a Follow the Cop strategy-- while the Doctor would keep targeting the Tracker, giving it a false positive.
JK/Roleblocker/Doctor: JK will frequently get in the doc's way, even without a roleblocker in the mix.
VT/Cop/Goon: Also fair. In addition, the mafia could fakeclaim bulletproof if the cop claims.
Goon/1-Shot BP/Tracker: I suppose this is fair.

This look better?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Switching Doc for BP from the Cop-MafiaRB to the JK-MafiaRB set-up does probably improve balance slightly but my experience with 2of4 (and the general principle of being careful with multiple protective roles) tells me that Doc-JK in a set-up is unfun and leads to drawn out games.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

For reasons not quite clear to me, that made me think of a possible improvement for Matrix6: what about replacing the 1-shot BP with a Universal Back-up (I'd probably drop the Universal part of the role name to avoid it looking too intimidating)? Seems like a reasonable and straightforward enough role (especially in a semi-open where you have a very good idea of what your role does) and I think it interacts nicely with both Jailkeeper and Tracker although admittedly it interacts less nicely with the Mafia RB.

[quadz08]

Backup is a fun role... would it just be "you get the role of the first person lynched" or is it "you get the role of the first dead PR"?

[SalmonellaDreams]

If it was dependent on who was lynched first, wouldn't the backup have a chance of turning to scum? That seems too swingy, and it's possible for the town to not even know it's lylo.

First pro-town power role that dies sounds good.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

First dead town PR, so he takes over either as Tracker or Jailkeeper if they die depending on set-up.

[Sakura Hana]

Universal Backup is supposed to change their role to the first PR that dies regardless of alignment, but they keep their alignment so if Mafia Roleblocker dies they become Town Roleblocker, simple as that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well, that's definitely not something you would want to happen (a Mafia RBlynch is painful enough for scum as is) and I don't really think that's a good way of running that role in general since there are plenty of Mafia PRs that either don't work or work very differently in town hands.

[Cabd]

Universal backup replacing one shot BP sounds great.

[quadz08]

It's not actually a Universal Backup if we run it that way, so it'd be called just a Backup.

[Amrun]

For reasons not quite clear to me, that made me think of a possible improvement for Matrix6: what about replacing the 1-shot BP with a Universal Back-up (I'd probably drop the Universal part of the role name to avoid it looking too intimidating)? Seems like a reasonable and straightforward enough role (especially in a semi-open where you have a very good idea of what your role does) and I think it interacts nicely with both Jailkeeper and Tracker although admittedly it interacts less nicely with the Mafia RB.

That fixes just about every issue I had with the original for newbies. I think this is a sound improvement.

[Voodoo Lady]

I do like replacing the BP with a backup, but that doesn't fix the problem I was aiming for-- namely, that the town can't lose if the Mafia Roleblocker dies D1.

I personally like the JK/doc interaction because they can't protect each other, and you can't have the JK claim and get all jaily while the doc waits in the shadows with a scalpel. Also, in row 1, Doc is a plausible fakeclaim for scum after the JK claims, so that might impact column 1 as well.

[Cabd]

I do like replacing the BP with a backup, but that doesn't fix the problem I was aiming for-- namely, that the town can't lose if the Mafia Roleblocker dies D1.

I personally like the JK/doc interaction because they can't protect each other, and you can't have the JK claim and get all jaily while the doc waits in the shadows with a scalpel. Also, in row 1, Doc is a plausible fakeclaim for scum after the JK claims, so that might impact column 1 as well.

Issue with JK/Doc is... welll. some games go on to like day one billion.

[GuyInFreezer]

I thought JK/Doc was the reason why 2of4 was scrapped

[Sakura Hana]

Inb4 jailkeeper jails the doc who is protecting the person that the mafia is killing...

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Roleblocker/Jailkeeper really shouldn't be happening in this setup, because how do you resolve cross-blocks?

[Cabd]

Roleblocker/Jailkeeper really shouldn't be happening in this setup, because how do you resolve cross-blocks?

Already been stated that scum PR gets the priority block.

[BBmolla]

• 	A	B	C
  1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
  2	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Town Doctor
  3	Town Cop	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Tracker

?

[GuyInFreezer]

Cop/tracker/RB?

[Cabd]

C feels a tiiiny bit townsided, molla.

[ferretlover]

With "tiiiny" being a lot.