Mafiascum.net

LastSurvivor, who do you think is scum with Bulbazak? The main trouble I am having is finding a scumpair that makes sense.

In post 643, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:T-Bone, you never answered my question about your reads on other players. What are they?

I think I did already, maybe not in as many words as I will right now.

ETL is my strongest scumread, then it goes down from there. I'm leaning town on a couple of players, you, TPR, but in reality, other than LS, I'm not willing to treat anyone as town, because I just don't know. An ETL flip would definitely help my reads. I posted my reasoning awhile ago and he hasn't done anything since to change my opinion on him. He went from "I can see why you think I'm scum and I'll defend myself later" to "OMGUS". So, take that as you will. The former attitude I'd expect from town. With the deadline approaching, I think his 'OMGUS' is a calculated move to try and muddle up the votes more so people don't settle on his lynch. So I'd like to see more ETL votes obviously. However, I'm considering what you guys are saying.

So let me turning it around F-16, where are you on ETL in light of everything I've said. Agree? Disagree?

Though folks we are approaching deadline, and we are all over the place with our votes.

@LS, where are you at? I want your guidance OH Lord of townieness. But seriously, as Innocent Child on Day 1 your reads are the most important (other than my own ) and we need more from you.

@Mod, you did make a mistake, I'm voting BBMolla.

PreviewEDit: Oh hey LS...well I'm too lazy to amend my post so...POSTING

In post 650, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:LastSurvivor, who do you think is scum with Bulbazak? The main trouble I am having is finding a scumpair that makes sense.

Okay but say for a second that Bulbazak was irrefutably scum, why does his partner matter at this exact moment? I understand wanting to find a partner, but that only becomes viable after a scumflip. Otherwise you're wasting time by saying "well if he's scum XXX is scum too".

In post 650, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:LastSurvivor, who do you think is scum with Bulbazak? The main trouble I am having is finding a scumpair that makes sense.

Before my answer to that would have actually been TiP, but now that doesn't make sense.

T-B's lack of a response to ETL's vote on him is interesting to say the least.

Theoretically speaking, T-B, if you can't think of a person who XXX could possibly be scum with, then XXX can't be scum, non?

That's theory talk though we shouldn't derail <_<

I did respond to ETL's vote. It's OMGUS. I feel like I would derail discussion by trying to go point by point with him. Who am I supposed to convince I'm town...ETL? If he's scum like I suspect he is, he already knows I'm town and nothing I say is going to change his mind. Is me arguing with ETL going to convince you, LS, that I am town? Because any discussion I have with him will develop to an argument. He had his chance to prove to me he isn't scum, and he used that chance to throw a brick wall at me. I don't need to convince ETL that he's scum, I need to convince you that he's scum. So, what are your thoughts about ETL being scum?

Re: Theory talk: I felt sure that TIP was scum until now but I am unable to figure out who would be his partner. My preferred strategy is to look for scumteams rather than individual scummy players. I've found before that when someone I found was scummy didn't make sense with anyone else, they were probably town - turns out I was right.

LastSurvivor, I think you agree at this point that ETL, Pitoli, and Sangres are most likely not scum. That leaves 6 possibilities assuming I am right:

1) TIP/Bulbazak - Not sure. Bulbazak could be bussing but I doubt it.
2) TIP/TPR - Did TPR really come out the gate attacking his/her buddy?
3) TIP/T-Bone - Possible.
4) T-Bone/Bulbazak - That's what I initially thought but I am not so sure now.
5) TPR/Bulbazak - Possible
6) T-Bone/TPR - Possible

T-Bone, I posted my thoughts about you and ETL in my reads list wall. I think she is town. I do think you make some good points such as her votes not making sense/votes of convenience. But I can also see why she as town would make those statements. She is one of my more solid townreads so not willing to lynch her today. Who is your next choice?

Oh yeah I see your response now T-B sorry for the misrep. FWIW, while I do agree that ETL's muddling up the votes, I don't think it's coming from a scum perspective atm. I just don't see ETL-scum.

F16 -- yup I generally agree with that, and that you're town. I'm going out for a few hours but when I get back I'll hopefully make time to look into {CO/T-B}/Bulb and TPR/Bulb. At first glance, I can't think of anything wrong with either of them really. Thing is I'm not sure if I see TPR-scum...

I'll look into the rest of those too probably.

Anyone but me

But seriously, here is my mindset. Right now we're talking the loudest about TiP, pitoli, and Bulbazak. TIP is doing anything for me one way or another. I wouldn't be surprised if he's scum, because he isn't really doing anything. But I've come to the realization that I can't use that as a scumtell anymore, because too many players as town play to survive rather than play to catch scum. TIP isn't trying to catch scum, he's just trying to coast through the day. That irritates me, but I hesitate to call it scum play. Pitoli, I like some of the things he has said this game. I don't quite see the argument against him. But his silence is damning a bit. Bulbazak, I have reservations for. I felt like he's played a good game...right up until 'compromisegate'. Because TIP isn't a compromise lynch if there aren't any leading wagons/counterwagons.

RE: Theory...not true LS, because without flips you can't have absolute reads. Don't fall into that trap.

In post 656, T-Bone wrote:I did respond to ETL's vote. It's OMGUS. I feel like I would derail discussion by trying to go point by point with him. Who am I supposed to convince I'm town...ETL? If he's scum like I suspect he is, he already knows I'm town and nothing I say is going to change his mind. Is me arguing with ETL going to convince you, LS, that I am town? Because any discussion I have with him will develop to an argument. He had his chance to prove to me he isn't scum, and he used that chance to throw a brick wall at me. I don't need to convince ETL that he's scum, I need to convince you that he's scum. So, what are your thoughts about ETL being scum?

What you mean to say is, you're trying to push a lynch on town and don't want to actually argue the "points" you made that I was very clearly shot down.

You're a fucking idiot is what you are. Your case is bullshit and you don't even have the balls to fucking discuss it.

@LS, no you really didn't misrep me. I intentionally decided not to go point for point with him. I've always said that arguing with another player is poor play, but then I usually do it myself if confronted. So this time I'm trying to be non-confrontational.

Also, how dare you call it OMGUS. If there wasn't actual scum motivation in your "case" then yes, it would be OMGUS.

But I pointed out how you manipulated the context to make it look how you wanted (not how it actually was). That's called misrepresentation. You did it. And you did it a lot. It's also called lying. You did that too.

So if you would like to continue attempting to discredit me by calling it OMGUS, by all means go ahead.

BUT YOU ARE SCUM AND I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

In post 661, T-Bone wrote:@LS, no you really didn't misrep me. I intentionally decided not to go point for point with him. I've always said that arguing with another player is poor play, but then I usually do it myself if confronted. So this time I'm trying to be non-confrontational.

I am asking you to fucking take responsibility for the lies you made.

I seriously don't get the huge resistance there is to a pitoli wagon. Is everybody thinking like F-16 that pitoli has to be town because I'm pushing her?

He calls me out for pushing her while so much other stuff happened, says I'm lurking. I show him pitoli has lurked out short after I decided I really wanted her lynch, and nothing has therefor changed about pitoli after her being scummy. He decides to ask me about my other reads: fine. So when they get there, all but one reads I've talked about plenty, he decides to evade the issue completely and asks bulba what he thinks of me. Somehow I have the feeling he just does not want to read what I'm saying and believe it, beyond simple logic.

And sure, that could be because F-16 is scum, but I do not want to believe that this whole game simply won't vote pitoli because they are her buddy. He's not the only one who straight in face of evidence decide to push people for changing reads rapidly. There's only one kind of player who will actually pay attention to how much he builds up his suspicion on someone: scum. Town are fickle, they make reads, and if something new is presented that makes them think they were wrong before, they'll post about that. They don't have to worry about it being logical to switch based on posts: they just read a post and it convinced them, so it's easy to convince others. Scum however, if they want to switch, need to figure out something to make it believable. You are actually voting people for what seems strange, but is town being town and not caring about what people think about them. Now if those votes were opportunistic: fine. The tell starts to work. But they weren't! There's not a wagon closing on to a lynch as such, so why would scum actually make weird moves like that? I do not understand how you try to punish town for stepping out and presenting their reads. As such, there's no way I'll be voting bulba, he was already a townread and the case isn't any good. Same feeling about the case people are trying with ETL at the moment.

In post 659, T-Bone wrote:Pitoli, I like some of the things he has said this game. I don't quite see the argument against him.

she made a post with as only goal to ask for an investigation. It's an old tell, or a slip, however you want to call it. There's only one role in the whole game that could be bothered about the investigation.

Assuming you are town, think by yourself. Is there any part of the game where you think "well, it'd be nice to be confirmed by the cop tonight". I don't think so. You are reading posts, making reads, convincing people. Your mind is busy with what's current. Scum on the other hand has the worry that they might get investigated. Because that would just suck. If it was possible, they'd try to redirect such a role away from them. Same with the vig. That's why directing a powerrole is a minor scumtell that you might know about. But there's only one role that actually wants to be investigated: the godfather.

It's not a silly argument, it's motivations and knowledge Nobody town would even care to think about it. Nobody town would know that it would be likely that there was a cop. But pitoli did make a single post asking for a cop investigation. She knew, and she cared about it.

Okay, just you and me for a moment, TPR. Let me see if I'm understanding what you're saying about Pitoli.

-- Pitoli is scum because he asked for an investigation on himself. Correct? (also this is actually brilliant if you're saying what I think you're saying and certainly would be icing on the cake if...)
--Anything else? This is really the key for me. Drive it home. Because I like Pitoli's mindset in some of his statements. Maybe it's a little bias on my part, but I like that he's refused to take the argument bait. I find his overall approach to the game to be protown. So tell me where I'm going wrong here, TPR.

PreviewEdit: I'm not disagreeing with you on that point. I actually think that point is pretty brilliant...it just contradicts everything else from his play, and that's why I'm having a hard time seeing him as scum. Address my 2nd concern from this post. What about the rest of his approach is scumminded?

Let's look Pitoli's posts, shall we?

In post 74, Bulbazak wrote:I'm a daycop. I scanned Pitoli and got a guilty.

In post 130, pitoli wrote:At this point I welcome any daycop (or night cop) to have their way with me

In post 438, pitoli wrote:on this, it was a joke in response to Bulbazak's guilty result joke, but like all jokes there was a grain of truth inside it. Bulba's right, I DON'T want an investigation wasted on me, but at the same time you know - what townie actually minds being cleared? Like that would be kind of nice (and don't fucking lie - you all would feel the same). Even when you're mad at an investigative role for wasting a night on you, it really does give you one less thing to worry about. I feel like I've been on the defensive all day long and it would free me up to look at some other things. But idk now that i've typed this up I feel like you're gonna have a field day with it.

I fail to see what is so incriminating here.

So, Bulbazak by CO-INCIDENCE decided to joke about faking a day-cop guilty on the scum GF?

Yes for the first. Mostly that it wasn't a throwaway statement or a joke, it was a single post about that. Also, a cop investigation, not just any.

for the second, before that I didn't know where to go with pitoli. Some things weren't brilliant but they could come from either side (like the sangres vote). The response to the argument obviously doesn't look good. For one, there's the "sigh, not this again" post that promises a reply that never comes. What actually came next is calling me town. At that point, the only defense of pitoli came from other players, and I stated that this was the response of someone giving in. Town would have an easy response here, simply explaining where that post came from. Scum doesn't, because in that case I'm right and the post came from scum motivations, which she would rather not explain. And pitoli never responded to it, other people did.

After that, pitoli disappeared.

I fear I've missed the argument bait you name as a big point in her favor and even rereading now I can't find it. You could point me to it, but it'll be asking me to prove how that can be scum, and that could be done for most posts. I don't know how helpful that would be. It would certainly not be genuine, because pitoli hadn't pinged my radar by then yet.

well, point in case. F-16 has been her main knight since then with posts like the one above.

How can you not see it F-16? Do you think about cop investigations when you're town?

Could you restate that second paragraph TPR? I don't get what you're trying to say.

Purple Rose, can you clear up whether you are a guy or a girl?

I am resisting the Pitoli wagon because your push is not making any sense and you are pushing one of the few people I have a townread on. A huge part of this game is not letting your townreads get lynched. I quoted in 667 Pitoli's reasoning for saying what she did. It makes sense. You are ascribing an unlikely motivation (GF) to Pitoli's post which was actually a response to a joke, not a post she made out of the blue just to get investigated.

In post 670, T-Bone wrote:How can you not see it F-16? Do you think about cop investigations when you're town?

Could you restate that second paragraph TPR? I don't get what you're trying to say.

if she knew she was town, she'd know why she made the post. In stead, it's other people that have to defend her.

Things like her rhetorical question "well, certainly no town would mind being confirmed, right?" show she doesn't actually want to explain why she made it. So when I pushed on little over a week ago, the fact that she first promised a response that then didn't come, and she lurked out a little after that feels like giving in. Having no answer to the accusation. I'm optimistic and hope that's because the accusation is correct.



So, F-16, as town, when someone claims a fake daycop on you, you then ask for a (day)cop investigation? (full emphasis on the parentheses). That's not an explanation why she'd care to make a post about it, that's explaining the occasion. Or in less complicated words, that's not explaining your motivation, that's explaining what happened before that.

In post 649, Lastsurvivor wrote:you're compromising by voting someone you think is town????

Having a town read is worthless if they're not going to do anything to support town. I have town reads all the time that I will compromise on in deadline, just because they're dead weight. Useless town is still useless.

In post 649, Lastsurvivor wrote: We don't GAIN anything either, since TiP hasn't really contributed. He hasn't done much analysis for us to look at tomorrow, and no one has done any real pushes against him except for "lolcompromise."

You just spelled out why TIP is a good compromise lynch. However, if you have a better suggestion, let me know. I only have a few that I will not lynch under any circumstances.

In post 673, Bulbazak wrote:if you have a better suggestion

Yes.

T-Bone. Why are you ignoring me.