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Post Post #650 (ISO) » Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:05 pm

Post by Simenon »

In fact, I probably would have faired better going after you. Shanba didn't make any specific statements, nor did he attack me much yesterday.
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Post Post #651 (ISO) » Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:10 pm

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Simenon wrote:You also have expressed the belief that Shanba is very town. How then is attacking Shanba the obvious move as scum?
Because convincing me to lynch Shanba would be easier than convincing Shanba to lynch me. At least, that's how I would have evaluated it.
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Post Post #652 (ISO) » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:35 pm

Post by Shanba »

Simenon wrote:
Shanba wrote: Um, yes it does. No sane scum would use deliberate craplogic if he thouht he was going to b caught, and certainly not when he was under the pressure Ecto was under. In which case, anything he said would have to be valid. As an SK in that situation his best move is to be hunting the last mafia before the mafia kills him. In which case you should hve been able to see that anything he sad then was as valid then as it is now.
Obviously, if you were town, getting a mislynch on you would benefit Ecto, or else ecto wouldn't have attacked you. So therefore, knowing Ecto is town helps us realize that he wasn't just attacking you for the hopes of a mislynch. I thought he was a unkillable sk, may I remind you, so no, he wouldn't have to worry about the mafia kill.

FFS, this is kind of obvious.
Not really.

Scum sometimes bring up legitimate points about their scumpartners in order to distance, or so that the town doesn't get to.

Town sometimes end up making cases which are full of crap and helpful to nobody.

Which means that the only thing that you can do to work out the validity of a case is to check the validity of a case itself, rather than the alignment of the player making the case. Sure, their motivation may be different. But differing motivations only makes it more likely that their case is visibly flawed (because they're pulling it out of their arse) and so it becomes necessary to check the validity of the case itself.

See, the crux of the issue is this. If scummy player A makes a case against scummy player B, his or her case is not invalidated because he or she is scummy. So you suddenly pouncing on Ectomancer's logic which you completely dismissed the last few days in order to attack me after I expressly showed that I would not be voting TCS (and therefore attacking me was your only option), and specifically noting that he's confirmed town is nothing more or less than name dropping for the sake of getting me lynched, i.e an appeal to authority.
For an example of what I'm trying to get across: Town lynches Battle Mage, he turns up town. battle Mage had been heaily attacking Simenon. Just because Battle Mage turned up town doesn't add any weight to his arguments against Simenon.
Yes, yes it does.
Or for another, more relevant example: town lynches Ectomancer. Ectomancer turns up SK. Ectomancer had ben heavily attacking Shanba. remarkably, any arguments he made should still stand on their own merits, as his goal is not to incriminate himself by posting flawed logic.
"flawed logic" doesn't matter. Ecto's points weren't flawed, but if he was a serial killer: HIS POINTS DIDN'T NEED TO BE FLAWED OR NOT FLAWED. He was being assumed as the serial killer- we didn't need to listen to him then, because he didn't share our alignment and we didn't want to buy in to whatever he was plotting.
But even if you believe he's the SK it's in his best interests to bring up a case that isn't flawed and is therefore more likely to lead to the last mafia. Dismissing it because you weren't sure of his alignment is such rubbish.
Delayed roleblocker is in some ways more dangerous to town than an actual full out roleblocker, as it adds an extra element to the situation after town things it has things worked out. Also, it fits your criteria of messing with town roles.
We are not talking about DRBER. We are talking about a scum role that possible balanced you being unkillable. Delayed rber does not.
Ah. I see. In that case, tell me how a Mafia Watcher balances any of the specific roles.
My immediate inclination when I see something that is untrue or
WTF? You gave me advice on gameplay and I thought the advice was helpful. You are now trying to twist that into a scumtell.

...
I wasn't serious from the start.
Ok, but when you drop it into the middle of a bunch of serious attacks it's hard for me to tell the difference.
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Post Post #653 (ISO) » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:37 pm

Post by Shanba »

Simenon wrote:In fact, I probably would have faired better going after you. Shanba didn't make any specific statements, nor did he attack me much yesterday.
Shanba wrote:Yes, that is a possibility, but I prefer my theory.

TCS trying to lynch Ecto, you mean? /shrug. Ecto wassn't the play and it reflects badly on TCS, but I just can't see him as scum. It's a scum role that would be beyond odd, and the way he handled it makes me think he's almost certainly town (his predecessor's I can prove I'm town moment, the way he handled the CESc situation). If he's pulled the wool over my eyes I'll feel like a complete idiot, but (no offence) I don't think either him or his predecessor are good enough to be able ot pull off those reactions as scum.
Shanba wrote:Alright. It look like we have to no lynch, however Ecto needs to confirm he is ready to go ahead with a no lynch before the day is over + he needs to decide who to shoot.

IMO, I would kill Simenon.
OMGUS much? If pushed, I can show compelling evidence as to how I'm not scum.
This quote from TCS' predecessor seems just so unlikely from a scum frame of mind, especially from someone who was clearly not having a stellar game (the fact that he came under such scrutiny day 1 is testimony to this.) Plus, Simenon scum would give CESc a motive both for killing Bird1111 and lying about what he told him. It's quite possible he didn't realise the evidence he gave would single out Simenon so clearly and the bird kill/lies about what he told bird in thread were an attempt at damage control.
(fixed the quote tags in the final quote.)
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Post Post #654 (ISO) » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:28 am

Post by Simenon »

Scum sometimes bring up legitimate points about their scumpartners in order to distance, or so that the town doesn't get to.
Serial killer.
Town sometimes end up making cases which are full of crap and helpful to nobody.
Yes, and that's why we analyze them, not dismiss them.
Which means that the only thing that you can do to work out the validity of a case is to check the validity of a case itself, rather than the alignment of the player making the case. Sure, their motivation may be different. But differing motivations only makes it more likely that their case is visibly flawed (because they're pulling it out of their arse) and so it becomes necessary to check the validity of the case itself.
So you suddenly pouncing on Ectomancer's logic which you completely dismissed the last few days in order to attack me after I expressly showed that I would not be voting TCS (and therefore attacking me was your only option), and specifically noting that he's confirmed town is nothing more or less than name dropping for the sake of getting me lynched, i.e an appeal to authority.
Well, duh. Now that Thad and Ecto are out of the game and town I have to look for scum elsewhere. So now I'm paying more attention to the arguments that Ecto was using. I didn't find them likely then, because then, I Thought Admiral Was Scum. Now, I have to go with my second pick.
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Post Post #655 (ISO) » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:29 am

Post by Simenon »

Shanba, read TCS' posts by comparison. TCS advocated my killing yesterday, those posts are only your reasons to agree with him.
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Post Post #656 (ISO) » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:35 am

Post by Simenon »

Every role in this game has a counter/mafia equivalent to it, or something to balance it:
Vigilante--Mafia Unkillable
Cop--Tracker/miller
Tracker/miller--Mafia Watcher
Doctor--Quack Doctor
Cop-- Godfather
Roleblocker -- the prevalence of power roles
Message Sender- the mason groups

My role balances itself out with the restriction. The only weird role here is cpe's vanilla townie, but that was probably added to give the town an edge.

A town unkillable does not work in this situation.
But even if you believe he's the SK it's in his best interests to bring up a case that isn't flawed and is therefore more likely to lead to the last mafia. Dismissing it because you weren't sure of his alignment is such rubbish.
Did you even read my post?
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Post Post #657 (ISO) » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:52 am

Post by Shanba »

Simenon, TCS was forced to do that, in the same way that you were forced to argue for his kill yesterday. In fact, that's exactly what his post yesterday says. He preffered the theory that there were no scum left yesterday to you being scum.

As for the Ecto thing, I said before that he would have had a motive to vote somene he thought was scum, if he were SK: it would make him sound more sincere, which could only help in a situation where he was facing his death.

Also, if you thought hin unkillable, how did that fit with your new argument about game theory? Actually, yoour game theory argument doesn't even make any sense.
Simenon wrote:Every role in this game has a counter/mafia equivalent to it, or something to balance it:
Vigilante--Mafia Unkillable
Cop--Tracker/miller
Tracker/miller--Mafia Watcher
Doctor--Quack Doctor
Cop-- Godfather
Roleblocker -- the prevalence of power roles
Message Sender- the mason groups

My role balances itself out with the restriction. The only weird role here is cpe's vanilla townie, but that was probably added to give the town an edge.
You used the tracker/miller twice, and the cop twice. You used the town roleblocker to balance out the town power roles. You used the tracker to balance out the watcher (how does that even work? it's not like the tracker messed up the watcher's results in any way). You used the Message sender to balance out the mason groups, when arguably both are in town's favour. You claim your restriction balances your own role out, though we don't even know that you are what you claimed. And then you can't even balance the townie out.

Also, now I finally understand this, a mafia powerkiller (I dunno what you would call it) that goes through protections would balance me out, given we don't know your role. And before you say you would have kileld me, given that everyone else had claimed their role by the time I claimed unkillable it would point squarely at the person who had claimed no pwoers and you would have been dead in the water.
A town unkillable does not work in this situation.
But even if you believe he's the SK it's in his best interests to bring up a case that isn't flawed and is therefore more likely to lead to the last mafia. Dismissing it because you weren't sure of his alignment is such rubbish.
Did you even read my post?
Yes, I did, and you're wrong. His goals as SK would have ben anti-mafia just as much as anti-town and ignoring his arguments just because his alignment is different is stupid. See Consulmaker mafia: Sarc SK kills Raffles mafia.

Yes an SK's goal is survival, but he survives best in a game where he is actively scumhunting. Otherwise he'll stand out.
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Post Post #658 (ISO) » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:46 am

Post by Simenon »

Shanba wrote:Simenon, TCS was forced to do that, in the same way that you were forced to argue for his kill yesterday. In fact, that's exactly what his post yesterday says. He preffered the theory that there were no scum left yesterday to you being scum.
Erm, yes. When two people advocate killing eachother, they tend to advocate killing eachother the next day, regardless of the reasons. So, therefore, it's not easier to go after you than it would be to go after TCS if I were scum.

As for the Ecto thing, I said before that he would have had a motive to vote somene he thought was scum, if he were SK: it would make him sound more sincere, which could only help in a situation where he was facing his death.
Also, if you thought hin unkillable, how did that fit with your new argument about game theory?
Erm, Ecto died and came up town. He's a vigilante, not unkillable. Don't be dense.
You used the tracker/miller twice, and the cop twice.
Yes and?
You used the town roleblocker to balance out the town power roles.
If you don't understand that, I am never playing another game with you.
You used the tracker to balance out the watcher (how does that even work? it's not like the tracker messed up the watcher's results in any way).
Please read what I wrote. I never said all of the roles balance out.
You used the Message sender to balance out the mason groups, when arguably both are in town's favour.
If you don't understand that, I am never playing another game with you.
You claim your restriction balances your own role out, though we don't even know that you are what you claimed.
lol! My theory could be wrong, because I could be scum! Brilliant!
And then you can't even balance the townie out.
I did. Read, please.
Also, now I finally understand this, a mafia powerkiller (I dunno what you would call it) that goes through protections would balance me out, given we don't know your role.
No, this is dumb. There is no reason for your role if there is a mafia powerkiller, and no reason why you haven't died yet.
And before you say you would have kileld me, given that everyone else
Yes, I did, and you're wrong. His goals as SK would have ben anti-mafia just as much as anti-town and ignoring his arguments just because his alignment is different is stupid. See Consulmaker mafia: Sarc SK kills Raffles mafia.
No, you don't understnad, that doesn't work in this situation. This isn't day one.
Yes an SK's goal is survival, but he survives best in a game where he is actively scumhunting. Otherwise he'll stand out.
No, you don't understand, that doesn't work in this situation. This isn't day one.

Ecto was not in a position to "scumhunt". We were playing the night action game then. Ecto, as an sk, would try to be getting the most advantage out of night choices. This is something for some frustrating reason you can't understand or you pretend not to understand.
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Post Post #659 (ISO) » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:47 am

Post by Simenon »

The message sender is obviously weakened by the fact we are all masons. Otherwise, he would be more powerful. With it, he's hardly powerful at all.
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Post Post #660 (ISO) » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:55 am

Post by Simenon »

Mafia is full of pain and anger.
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Post Post #661 (ISO) » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:33 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

Sorry about the not-posting so much. I have one other game that is winding down too and I've probably been paying it too much attention.

I am willing to entertain the idea of Shanba-scum, but I need to do my own reread before I vote for anyone. I have definitely considered Shanba confirmed town since he was proved unkillable, but Simenon has a point about town/scum role counterparts. The fact that the godfather was also nightkillable lends some credence to the theory.

I'll be back with more tonight or tomorrow; I have to do school stuff today.
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Post Post #662 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:54 am

Post by Shanba »

Simenon wrote:
Shanba wrote:Simenon, TCS was forced to do that, in the same way that you were forced to argue for his kill yesterday. In fact, that's exactly what his post yesterday says. He preffered the theory that there were no scum left yesterday to you being scum.
Erm, yes. When two people advocate killing eachother, they tend to advocate killing eachother the next day, regardless of the reasons. So, therefore, it's not easier to go after you than it would be to go after TCS if I were scum.
This is ridiculous. Ifthe only reason he was voting you was that he was forced to, when he didnt even make any real arguments against you and I did you claim that he was more suspicious of you than I was.
As for the Ecto thing, I said before that he would have had a motive to vote somene he thought was scum, if he were SK: it would make him sound more sincere, which could only help in a situation where he was facing his death.
Also, if you thought hin unkillable, how did that fit with your new argument about game theory?
Erm, Ecto died and came up town. He's a vigilante, not unkillable. Don't be dense.
I hqve no ideq what I was thinking here.
You used the tracker/miller twice, and the cop twice.
Yes and?
So clearly your theory is already wrong. Each role doesnt have a balance/mafia equivalent as some roles have more than one.
You used the town roleblocker to balance out the town power roles.
If you don't understand that, I am never playing another game with you.
This is the real kicker, to be hoenst. A roleblocker isnt weakened by having a lot of roles. His power remains the same. Having a roleblocker weakens the other roles, but not the roleblocker.

Also, very few of the roles are actually very powerful. With so many targeting roles rtacker is liable to get a false negative, cop is severely weakened anyway, the chances that roleblocking the doc would lead to a kill are all but minimal and the vig is a role that doesnt need a roleblocker to balance it as it balances itself out.

No to mention, if my theory of a powerkiller was correct that would be a counter to the roleblocker role too.
You used the tracker to balance out the watcher (how does that even work? it's not like the tracker messed up the watcher's results in any way).
Please read what I wrote. I never said all of the roles balance out.
No, you're right. I misread it, sorry. However, reading what you did write your definition is incredibly vague. A counter, a counterpart, or a balancing effect? Please. With that level of vagueness, you could almost balance out anything.
You used the Message sender to balance out the mason groups, when arguably both are in town's favour.
If you don't understand that, I am never playing another game with you.
O.. K? The message sender isnt weakened by having another mechanic that works the same way. It still suffers the same problem of possibly talking to a scum that it always would, but still carries the same benefits. It's not a balancing effect, it's an extension
You claim your restriction balances your own role out, though we don't even know that you are what you claimed.
lol! My theory could be wrong, because I could be scum! Brilliant!
Um, yes. Please realise that we cant all automatically know everyones alignments like you can.
And then you can't even balance the townie out.
I did. Read, please.
No, you said that you thought it was there to give the town an edge when it clearly didnt.
Also, now I finally understand this, a mafia powerkiller (I dunno what you would call it) that goes through protections would balance me out, given we don't know your role.
No, this is dumb. There is no reason for your role if there is a mafia powerkiller, and no reason why you haven't died yet.[/quote] Whuh? The powerkiller acts as a balance to the unkillable aspect. And it balances the rber/doc. And it gives a counterpart to the vig.
And before you say you would have kileld me, given that everyone else
Yes, I did, and you're wrong. His goals as SK would have ben anti-mafia just as much as anti-town and ignoring his arguments just because his alignment is different is stupid. See Consulmaker mafia: Sarc SK kills Raffles mafia.
No, you don't understnad, that doesn't work in this situation. This isn't day one.
[/quoet] Neither was Sarc killing Raffles. Do you even read what
I
write? His arguments are independent of alignment. not only is using his name an appeal to authority, it's also an ad hominem. Unless they were crap then, you shouldnt have ignored them then. Unless they were good then, you shouldnt be using them to attack me now.
Yes an SK's goal is survival, but he survives best in a game where he is actively scumhunting. Otherwise he'll stand out.
No, you don't understand, that doesn't work in this situation. This isn't day one.

Ecto was not in a position to "scumhunt". We were playing the night action game then. Ecto, as an sk, would try to be getting the most advantage out of night choices. This is something for some frustrating reason you can't understand or you pretend not to understand.
Maybe it would help if you actually brought it up rather than just saying if he was an SK his arguments were crap.

Regardless, you're still wrong. Pushing an unpopular lynch because of flawed logic is not sensible for an SK in any part of the game. He didnt need me lynched because he had three other targets to shoot at if he was an SK. Risking his life on an unnecessary push against a possible night threat is not wise from an SK.
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Post Post #663 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:54 am

Post by Shanba »

Why Sim is scum (and also why I am town):

CESc's play would be absolutely insane if I was his scumbuddy. In fact, so would mine.

First off, if I were scum I would have no motive to reveal the info CESc sent me at night. Especially as it would only incriminate one townsperson. in essence, I would have been setting up a 1 for 1 exchange scum for town, which never benefits scum.

Then there's the second part of his laim. CESc claimed that he knew both Bird and I were innocent. Even after he backed out of the Sim thing which would be a bad idea whether or not Sim was scum, he stuck to that. There is a reason scum don't claim their scumbuddies innocent. Especially with an inactive godfather, he would have been risking the whole game on me being lynched. And if he was lynched, it wouldnt serve any purpose at all.

So in effect, if we were scum, we would have set up a situation where we needed him t die before me. Which would make my unvoting him suicidal. not only does it establish a connection between us, it looks fishy on my part nd could well result in m being lynched before him. If I were scum, I would actively have needed CESc dead at that point.

Now finally, consider who CESc's info implicated. It implicated Simenon. Clearly it would have been bad move to confirm he had info that simenon was scum even if Sim was town. But if Simenon was scum it would be frankly suicidal.

Now, into Sim's play. First off, Sim's predecesor Remus doesnt day much. He random votes for CESc then re-random votes for CPE. That seems kinda odd, but I've seen it from town too so no biggy.

Sim replaces in. He fails to say anything interesting for about two weeks, but again, nothing terribly scummy about that. He is actively lurking a bit, until I release CESc's info. He then votes ThAdmiral for jumping on the CESc bandwagon. He doesnt move back to the CESc wagon (looking through his posts I think that's who he means by cubus) until TCS calls him on it (although this was actually next post).

Sim then does not push the CESc wagon

Finally, to move back to something I said earlier in the game, chances are the scum did not target Faerielord. CESc's ability meant that targeting FL was a smart move, however one of the other scum must have killed (or tried to kill) that night. Sim did not target faerielord that night. We know that SC made all the kills, so what was the final mafiate doing that night? (Neither did TCS, but that's a moot point).

Sim then does not vote CESc until after I have and ecto has said he would.

Post 481: Sim wants Ecto to kill himself if CESc turns up scum. This is bloody convenient. It's almost as if yu know CESc is going to turn up scum and want to get something sweet out of the bargain. In fact, if this was followed through with we could well have lost by now already. Ecto shoots himself, we come to day with 4 alive, ThAdmiral lynch Simenonscum wins. He rops this idea after we actually get round to some discussion on how to maximise the odds (actually, if we'd followed my plan there things would have worked out fairly well for us. Mafia nokilling rally messed things up there.)

The first no kill makes most sense if Simenon is scum. Killing would have confirmed simenon, but no-killing gives the town an extra day. Non-Simenon scum could have killed Sim in order to lose neither benefit (although actually, i would have been forced to not kill in order to get my result on TCS anyway.) Ok. Nulltell. All but confirms TCS innocent, although if anyone thinks he's scum at this point they want their brain checking.

This is interesting. Despite believing that Ecto was the Sk, Simenon pushed for a no lynch. If he believed that Ecto was an SK, the only sensible play would have been to lynch Ecto. If we had an Ecto SK in endgame, we would have had a prisoners dilemna; Sim has indicated he believed Ecto to be un nightkillable. This means that in a prisoners dilemna town automatically loses. In fact, this is what happened the enxt day and prompted the second no lynch.

Actually, his case on TCS that day is pretty weak. He claims that TCS wanted Ecto dead because then he wouldnt be killed by him. Admittedly he has to push for a TCSkill but it's notable that his reasoning was so weak.

Then he suddenly turns on me today. He says it would be easier to get a TCS lynch than a me lynch, but yesterday proves him wrong. I chose Sim over TCS when I didn't have to, TCS chose Sim because he had to. I stated in pretty clear terms just how certain I was of TCS' innocence. TCS seriously considered there being no scum left. He uses the fact that Ecto, who suspected me, turned up town in order to attack me, which is a logical fallacy on two fronts, especially as I rebutted Ecto's points that day. He basically says he doesnt believe me when I tell him my reasoning for unvoting CESc, without giving any logic as to why. He's scum. He needs to die.

Vote: Simenon
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Post Post #664 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:23 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

A few things I'd like to hear addressed by Shanba--the CEScum wagon could have easily been bussing on your part. Once all the power roles had been outed, it would have been easy to get a free pass for condemning one of your teammates. I still dislike how you attempted to hop off the CEScum wagon until I pointed out that you did so.

On the other hand, Simenon's accusations of Shanba this day seem to be based mostly on setup speculation, which is scummy. Also, I think that it would logically follow that scum would desire a Shanba-lynch because going to endgame with an unnightkillable would result in a draw and not a win.

On the other hand, Shanba just cast the first stone.

All things considered, I could imagine a universe in which Shanba is scum, but I still think that Simenon is the more likely candidate of the two.

I'd like to hear a response from Simenon before I even consider voting against either of you.
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Post Post #665 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:27 am

Post by Simenon »

Vote Shanba


I don't have time to answer it, but just glancing over it I can tell it's largely full of misrepresentations and sometimes outright mistruths. To accuse me of buddying around with cescum and attempting to preserve him and ignore him is obviously contradicting the actual evidense.

And I think my setup speculation is perfectly valid. Nonvalid speculation is "lol there may not be power roles in setup so cpe's clam is bad vote cpe", especially on day two.
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Post Post #666 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:32 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

By the way,
vote: Shanba
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Post Post #667 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:34 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

Oh jesus, did that just happen? This better be right.
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Post Post #668 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:34 am

Post by Primate »

hello
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Post Post #669 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:35 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

Hiya
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Post Post #670 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:38 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

OMG IT WAS POST 666

I am full of win
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Post Post #671 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:43 am

Post by Shanba »

Gah. If Sim is scum, I will throttle you. Oh well.
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Post Post #672 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:45 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

I don't know, today I've been wondering if Sim isn't an unnightkillable SK or something mad crazy like that.
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Post Post #673 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:47 am

Post by Shanba »

Just for the record, I believed everything I said that last day. Sim, you can now vow never to play with me again, but meh.
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Post Post #674 (ISO) » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:48 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

I really need to know what happened Night 6. I'm still confused how Day 7 happened.
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