Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:05 pm
In fact, I probably would have faired better going after you. Shanba didn't make any specific statements, nor did he attack me much yesterday.
Because convincing me to lynch Shanba would be easier than convincing Shanba to lynch me. At least, that's how I would have evaluated it.Simenon wrote:You also have expressed the belief that Shanba is very town. How then is attacking Shanba the obvious move as scum?
Not really.Simenon wrote:Obviously, if you were town, getting a mislynch on you would benefit Ecto, or else ecto wouldn't have attacked you. So therefore, knowing Ecto is town helps us realize that he wasn't just attacking you for the hopes of a mislynch. I thought he was a unkillable sk, may I remind you, so no, he wouldn't have to worry about the mafia kill.Shanba wrote: Um, yes it does. No sane scum would use deliberate craplogic if he thouht he was going to b caught, and certainly not when he was under the pressure Ecto was under. In which case, anything he said would have to be valid. As an SK in that situation his best move is to be hunting the last mafia before the mafia kills him. In which case you should hve been able to see that anything he sad then was as valid then as it is now.
FFS, this is kind of obvious.
But even if you believe he's the SK it's in his best interests to bring up a case that isn't flawed and is therefore more likely to lead to the last mafia. Dismissing it because you weren't sure of his alignment is such rubbish.Yes, yes it does.For an example of what I'm trying to get across: Town lynches Battle Mage, he turns up town. battle Mage had been heaily attacking Simenon. Just because Battle Mage turned up town doesn't add any weight to his arguments against Simenon."flawed logic" doesn't matter. Ecto's points weren't flawed, but if he was a serial killer: HIS POINTS DIDN'T NEED TO BE FLAWED OR NOT FLAWED. He was being assumed as the serial killer- we didn't need to listen to him then, because he didn't share our alignment and we didn't want to buy in to whatever he was plotting.Or for another, more relevant example: town lynches Ectomancer. Ectomancer turns up SK. Ectomancer had ben heavily attacking Shanba. remarkably, any arguments he made should still stand on their own merits, as his goal is not to incriminate himself by posting flawed logic.
Ah. I see. In that case, tell me how a Mafia Watcher balances any of the specific roles.We are not talking about DRBER. We are talking about a scum role that possible balanced you being unkillable. Delayed rber does not.Delayed roleblocker is in some ways more dangerous to town than an actual full out roleblocker, as it adds an extra element to the situation after town things it has things worked out. Also, it fits your criteria of messing with town roles.
Ok, but when you drop it into the middle of a bunch of serious attacks it's hard for me to tell the difference.My immediate inclination when I see something that is untrue or
WTF? You gave me advice on gameplay and I thought the advice was helpful. You are now trying to twist that into a scumtell.
...
I wasn't serious from the start.
Simenon wrote:In fact, I probably would have faired better going after you. Shanba didn't make any specific statements, nor did he attack me much yesterday.
Shanba wrote:Yes, that is a possibility, but I prefer my theory.
TCS trying to lynch Ecto, you mean? /shrug. Ecto wassn't the play and it reflects badly on TCS, but I just can't see him as scum. It's a scum role that would be beyond odd, and the way he handled it makes me think he's almost certainly town (his predecessor's I can prove I'm town moment, the way he handled the CESc situation). If he's pulled the wool over my eyes I'll feel like a complete idiot, but (no offence) I don't think either him or his predecessor are good enough to be able ot pull off those reactions as scum.
(fixed the quote tags in the final quote.)Shanba wrote:Alright. It look like we have to no lynch, however Ecto needs to confirm he is ready to go ahead with a no lynch before the day is over + he needs to decide who to shoot.
IMO, I would kill Simenon.This quote from TCS' predecessor seems just so unlikely from a scum frame of mind, especially from someone who was clearly not having a stellar game (the fact that he came under such scrutiny day 1 is testimony to this.) Plus, Simenon scum would give CESc a motive both for killing Bird1111 and lying about what he told him. It's quite possible he didn't realise the evidence he gave would single out Simenon so clearly and the bird kill/lies about what he told bird in thread were an attempt at damage control.OMGUS much? If pushed, I can show compelling evidence as to how I'm not scum.
Serial killer.Scum sometimes bring up legitimate points about their scumpartners in order to distance, or so that the town doesn't get to.
Yes, and that's why we analyze them, not dismiss them.Town sometimes end up making cases which are full of crap and helpful to nobody.
Which means that the only thing that you can do to work out the validity of a case is to check the validity of a case itself, rather than the alignment of the player making the case. Sure, their motivation may be different. But differing motivations only makes it more likely that their case is visibly flawed (because they're pulling it out of their arse) and so it becomes necessary to check the validity of the case itself.
Well, duh. Now that Thad and Ecto are out of the game and town I have to look for scum elsewhere. So now I'm paying more attention to the arguments that Ecto was using. I didn't find them likely then, because then, I Thought Admiral Was Scum. Now, I have to go with my second pick.So you suddenly pouncing on Ectomancer's logic which you completely dismissed the last few days in order to attack me after I expressly showed that I would not be voting TCS (and therefore attacking me was your only option), and specifically noting that he's confirmed town is nothing more or less than name dropping for the sake of getting me lynched, i.e an appeal to authority.
Did you even read my post?But even if you believe he's the SK it's in his best interests to bring up a case that isn't flawed and is therefore more likely to lead to the last mafia. Dismissing it because you weren't sure of his alignment is such rubbish.
You used the tracker/miller twice, and the cop twice. You used the town roleblocker to balance out the town power roles. You used the tracker to balance out the watcher (how does that even work? it's not like the tracker messed up the watcher's results in any way). You used the Message sender to balance out the mason groups, when arguably both are in town's favour. You claim your restriction balances your own role out, though we don't even know that you are what you claimed. And then you can't even balance the townie out.Simenon wrote:Every role in this game has a counter/mafia equivalent to it, or something to balance it:
Vigilante--Mafia Unkillable
Cop--Tracker/miller
Tracker/miller--Mafia Watcher
Doctor--Quack Doctor
Cop-- Godfather
Roleblocker -- the prevalence of power roles
Message Sender- the mason groups
My role balances itself out with the restriction. The only weird role here is cpe's vanilla townie, but that was probably added to give the town an edge.
Yes, I did, and you're wrong. His goals as SK would have ben anti-mafia just as much as anti-town and ignoring his arguments just because his alignment is different is stupid. See Consulmaker mafia: Sarc SK kills Raffles mafia.Did you even read my post?But even if you believe he's the SK it's in his best interests to bring up a case that isn't flawed and is therefore more likely to lead to the last mafia. Dismissing it because you weren't sure of his alignment is such rubbish.
Erm, yes. When two people advocate killing eachother, they tend to advocate killing eachother the next day, regardless of the reasons. So, therefore, it's not easier to go after you than it would be to go after TCS if I were scum.Shanba wrote:Simenon, TCS was forced to do that, in the same way that you were forced to argue for his kill yesterday. In fact, that's exactly what his post yesterday says. He preffered the theory that there were no scum left yesterday to you being scum.
Erm, Ecto died and came up town. He's a vigilante, not unkillable. Don't be dense.Also, if you thought hin unkillable, how did that fit with your new argument about game theory?
Yes and?You used the tracker/miller twice, and the cop twice.
If you don't understand that, I am never playing another game with you.You used the town roleblocker to balance out the town power roles.
Please read what I wrote. I never said all of the roles balance out.You used the tracker to balance out the watcher (how does that even work? it's not like the tracker messed up the watcher's results in any way).
If you don't understand that, I am never playing another game with you.You used the Message sender to balance out the mason groups, when arguably both are in town's favour.
lol! My theory could be wrong, because I could be scum! Brilliant!You claim your restriction balances your own role out, though we don't even know that you are what you claimed.
I did. Read, please.And then you can't even balance the townie out.
No, this is dumb. There is no reason for your role if there is a mafia powerkiller, and no reason why you haven't died yet.Also, now I finally understand this, a mafia powerkiller (I dunno what you would call it) that goes through protections would balance me out, given we don't know your role.
No, you don't understnad, that doesn't work in this situation. This isn't day one.Yes, I did, and you're wrong. His goals as SK would have ben anti-mafia just as much as anti-town and ignoring his arguments just because his alignment is different is stupid. See Consulmaker mafia: Sarc SK kills Raffles mafia.
No, you don't understand, that doesn't work in this situation. This isn't day one.Yes an SK's goal is survival, but he survives best in a game where he is actively scumhunting. Otherwise he'll stand out.
This is ridiculous. Ifthe only reason he was voting you was that he was forced to, when he didnt even make any real arguments against you and I did you claim that he was more suspicious of you than I was.Simenon wrote:Erm, yes. When two people advocate killing eachother, they tend to advocate killing eachother the next day, regardless of the reasons. So, therefore, it's not easier to go after you than it would be to go after TCS if I were scum.Shanba wrote:Simenon, TCS was forced to do that, in the same way that you were forced to argue for his kill yesterday. In fact, that's exactly what his post yesterday says. He preffered the theory that there were no scum left yesterday to you being scum.
I hqve no ideq what I was thinking here.As for the Ecto thing, I said before that he would have had a motive to vote somene he thought was scum, if he were SK: it would make him sound more sincere, which could only help in a situation where he was facing his death.
Erm, Ecto died and came up town. He's a vigilante, not unkillable. Don't be dense.Also, if you thought hin unkillable, how did that fit with your new argument about game theory?
So clearly your theory is already wrong. Each role doesnt have a balance/mafia equivalent as some roles have more than one.Yes and?You used the tracker/miller twice, and the cop twice.
This is the real kicker, to be hoenst. A roleblocker isnt weakened by having a lot of roles. His power remains the same. Having a roleblocker weakens the other roles, but not the roleblocker.If you don't understand that, I am never playing another game with you.You used the town roleblocker to balance out the town power roles.
No, you're right. I misread it, sorry. However, reading what you did write your definition is incredibly vague. A counter, a counterpart, or a balancing effect? Please. With that level of vagueness, you could almost balance out anything.Please read what I wrote. I never said all of the roles balance out.You used the tracker to balance out the watcher (how does that even work? it's not like the tracker messed up the watcher's results in any way).
O.. K? The message sender isnt weakened by having another mechanic that works the same way. It still suffers the same problem of possibly talking to a scum that it always would, but still carries the same benefits. It's not a balancing effect, it's an extensionIf you don't understand that, I am never playing another game with you.You used the Message sender to balance out the mason groups, when arguably both are in town's favour.
Um, yes. Please realise that we cant all automatically know everyones alignments like you can.lol! My theory could be wrong, because I could be scum! Brilliant!You claim your restriction balances your own role out, though we don't even know that you are what you claimed.
No, you said that you thought it was there to give the town an edge when it clearly didnt.I did. Read, please.And then you can't even balance the townie out.
No, this is dumb. There is no reason for your role if there is a mafia powerkiller, and no reason why you haven't died yet.[/quote] Whuh? The powerkiller acts as a balance to the unkillable aspect. And it balances the rber/doc. And it gives a counterpart to the vig.Also, now I finally understand this, a mafia powerkiller (I dunno what you would call it) that goes through protections would balance me out, given we don't know your role.
Maybe it would help if you actually brought it up rather than just saying if he was an SK his arguments were crap.And before you say you would have kileld me, given that everyone else
No, you don't understnad, that doesn't work in this situation. This isn't day one.Yes, I did, and you're wrong. His goals as SK would have ben anti-mafia just as much as anti-town and ignoring his arguments just because his alignment is different is stupid. See Consulmaker mafia: Sarc SK kills Raffles mafia.
[/quoet] Neither was Sarc killing Raffles. Do you even read whatIwrite? His arguments are independent of alignment. not only is using his name an appeal to authority, it's also an ad hominem. Unless they were crap then, you shouldnt have ignored them then. Unless they were good then, you shouldnt be using them to attack me now.No, you don't understand, that doesn't work in this situation. This isn't day one.Yes an SK's goal is survival, but he survives best in a game where he is actively scumhunting. Otherwise he'll stand out.
Ecto was not in a position to "scumhunt". We were playing the night action game then. Ecto, as an sk, would try to be getting the most advantage out of night choices. This is something for some frustrating reason you can't understand or you pretend not to understand.