Newbie 2008: Game Over


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Post Post #650 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:42 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

In post 642, cassowary wrote:KAAG, why are you scumreading me more than Lunatic now?
Because he is posting content that sounds towny and you are barely posting at all. I keep getting this feeling you pop in, hope to find two votes on the same person, don't find it, make a tiny post of very little, and pop out.

UNVOTE: Town looter

Now there are no votes. Engage now?

If D1 didn't exist, you'd be in the same boat for me as TL. And on the whole, he has improved and you have got worse.
Town looter wrote:
In post 626, KickAssAndGiggle wrote: I have plenty of on-site games, you've said this a few times but haven't done it. I was town in the last game I played (reference to three posts back) but I replaced in. However, for a tone read, there's enough there I think.
I just had a look at the Polandball game.

While I am deep in the confirmation bias hole (and conclusion is anecdotal as I have only looked at 2-3 games) your meta sort of suggests you come across towny when you are scum, and scummy when you are town. I don't think that is inconsistent with my current read of you as scum, but I need to think about this more.
Obviously judging one's own tone is hard. I get the feeling some people don't like my "rhetorical questions as persuasion" style to sound towny. Should I change because of that? (:))

Without doubt, there is no move I won't try when I am scum: the VI routine did indeed win 1684.

Bit WIFOMy though: if I AM a VI, I will sound like it.
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Post Post #651 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:43 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

EBWOP: my smiley face inside brackets didn't work!!! :(
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Post Post #652 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:42 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

Town looter is beginning to sound towny.
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Post Post #653 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:54 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

But cass is town. If he isn't, then Mikul and cass are one of the best scum teams I've ever seen on D1.

Spoiler: Mikul on D1
In post 207, Mikul wrote:Okay so my scum lean on cas, and this one i'm not quite sure if i'll be able to shake it. Everything about her posting style has came off as weird to me and the last few post sort of solidified this in my mind.

Post #68 - They get a read on me and VTL me right after defending the same post they are now VTLing me for, saying its weird after re reading it.

Post #89 - They question my response to this

Post #100 - They let go of their read after I re explain what I initially said. The only difference in the posts is that I clarified I likely should have said lurking in the initial post. I also said we may have talked past each other, but looking back on this and at the specific post at the start I still said Insom likely could lead a mislynch (at least in my mind, and because of his post and how it was framed). They start to see they see where i'm coming from, and I feel like I really didn't clarify that much here, just reinforced my initial logic.

Post #112 - They completely remove the vtl, and make a comment about not being sure how to read the back and forth. This comes off to me as a filler comment and just trying to generate content. Right after this question the wording to her post because she phrased it "for now, i'll let this go". It almost comes off as contrived to me

Post # 117,118,120, and 122 - is all fluff and seems as if its padding activity and posts

Post # 128 they post their list of town to scum

KickAssAndGiggle
Mikul
Lunatic
insomnia
Neutron Star
N_M
Looter

I now went from being scum read, to i'll leave this alone for now, to one of their top town reads. This even comes off as trying to buddy or passively make me read them as town.

Post #131 - They claimed they wanted to preview that list, but second guessed it and shouldn't have posted it. Again this is not committing to anything and almost making a post to say, I could be wrong from this. They are trying to distance them self from any solid read.

Post #146 - They redo the list, and now i'm at the top of the list. I think this list itself is full of a bunch of IIOA. The other interesting part of this post to me is that they read both Krang and Insom as town, but go out of their way to say "if one is scum", it's insom. Again this non committal stuff is really setting wrong with me at this point.

Post #152 - After I call them out on this, they admit to being non committal but only after I call it out.

Post #192 - This is where I solidify this scum read in my mind. They go from me being their strongest town read to me being defensive and questioning that read which is fine. But now they have moved Luna to a strong town read (or so it would seem by the wording)

They explain why they feel me being defensive is bad, or me being to lazy to un vote is bad. This comes off like they are re positioning their self to jump on lunas fos wagon. The part that really gets me is why they take the time to explain that what I'm doing "could" be scummy, but they don't take the time to justify why they like lunatics posting. This is clarified later, but I feel like this is the post to focus on as it's the initial response to this that means the most.

It really strikes me as , o he has a case, let me bandwagon on top of already being really non committal


Their entire DP strikes me as trying to distance themselves from people, while being scared to lock on a set read, while coasting by. This makes them seem like they are contributing in a pro town way but in reality it comes off as built up fluff.


Spoiler: Cass soon after
In post 210, cassowary wrote:Hmm, some of Mikul's points feel like a mischaracterization.
In post 207, Mikul wrote:Post #112 - They completely remove the vtl, and make a comment about not being sure how to read the back and forth. This comes off to me as a filler comment and just trying to generate content. Right after this question the wording to her post because she phrased it "for now, i'll let this go". It almost comes off as contrived to me
Why word it as "completely" removed the vote? It's not like I can partly remove the vote. I removed the vote at the time because I felt like our discussion had reached its productive endpoint.

I leaned town on you at the time of making my , but note it was mostly a gut feeling read. Just bc I'm townreading you at a moment in time doesn't mean I'm going to refrain from pointing out things I think are weird. None Of You Are Free Of Sin, especially on day 1.
In post 207, Mikul wrote:Post #131 - They claimed they wanted to preview that list, but second guessed it and shouldn't have posted it. Again this is not committing to anything and almost making a post to say, I could be wrong from this. They are trying to distance them self from any solid read.
Lol are you accusing me of only pretending to click the wrong button?
In post 207, Mikul wrote: Post #146 - They redo the list, and now i'm at the top of the list. I think this list itself is full of a bunch of IIOA. The other interesting part of this post to me is that they read both Krang and Insom as town, but go out of their way to say "if one is scum", it's insom. Again this non committal stuff is really setting wrong with me at this point.
It's not the world's biggest read wall, but how is it iioa? It's mostly just my own opinions.

Again... it's early in day 1, I'm not going to 100% commit to reading kaag/insomnia as TvT. Anyone could be scum at this point. I'm just really not seeing why it's weird to say "both of these people feel town to me right now, but if one were to be scum I think it would be this person." It's just another way of saying "I'm town-leaning both of these people, but insomnia feels less town to me than kaag."
In post 207, Mikul wrote: Post #192 - This is where I solidify this scum read in my mind. They go from me being their strongest town read to me being defensive and questioning that read which is fine. But now they have moved Luna to a strong town read (or so it would seem by the wording)

They explain why they feel me being defensive is bad, or me being to lazy to un vote is bad. This comes off like they are re positioning their self to jump on lunas fos wagon. The part that really gets me is why they take the time to explain that what I'm doing "could" be scummy, but they don't take the time to justify why they like lunatics posting. This is clarified later, but I feel like this is the post to focus on as it's the initial response to this that means the most.
I was mostly agreeing with KAAG in here (note I said "I like Lunatic's posts
as well
" implying my reasons were similar) -- I had previously said something to the effect of 'would like to hear more from Lunatic' and then Lunatic showed up and made a bunch of long posts saying things I also was thinking, which impressed me. That was kinda just me giving my initial reaction to Lunatic's posts. And your reaction to Lunatic's accusations didn't look great to me.

I dunno, some of this just seems like reaching, to me.

-----

pedit on Looter: I can see your case here, and had been thinking some similar things on Neutron:
In post 146, cassowary wrote:a lot of her posts read more like general theory/discussion points than thoughts on the game at hand, but this has changed a bit
although, you're right that one effortpost shouldn't offset prior reads. I appreciate you clarifying your logic, thanks.


If that is scum theatre, they deserve to win.

So while I'm not happy with his activity in the latter stages, I'm not voting cass.

And Lunatic feels very town today, as I think he could make a strong case on me or TL and get the other two to go with it. He isn't doing this.

So while TL sounds townier...he still has to be scum. I can't do anything with TL's D1 or D2 other than get a gut scum!read from his early posts.
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Post Post #654 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:07 pm

Post by Elmo TeH AzN »

Votecount 5.04
Not Voting (3):
Town looter, cassowary, Lunatic, KickAssAndGiggle

With 4 Alive it takes 3 votes to lynch.


Deadline In (expired on 2020-06-19 09:00:00)
[/color]
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Post Post #655 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:11 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

In post 647, Lunatic wrote:
Any thoughts on if we are going to lynch today?
Yeah we are lynching today. One of you or Kaag. Still trying to decide, and I want cas to help me figure it out lol
Deadline is 1 day and 6 hours at time of writing. I agree that we should lynch. I don't think prolonging the agony is wise.

I feel like all I am doing is basically rehashing the same broad sentence: "I am not sure but I think it's TL".

My posts on this page are just a shitstorm of indecision: I put much more weight on the early game interactions one we have flips than any tone read on the final day. I've already read cass/Mikul together on D1 and knew I didn't think they were partners. I don't think he could actually do anything short of post his own role PM to actually make me think he is scum.

Nothing about Lunatic's interactions with Mikul actually screams "these two can't be partners", but I do get the feeling they aren't. And over the course of the game, Lunatic has sounded generally towny, plus I don't think his play today is scum!play. I think he would win easily enough as scum here with a straightforward push on either me or TL.

So...I'm going to unvote and then re-vote without even waiting for a vote count in-between. Disgusting. I'd scum-read me for it. Apologies to town.

VOTE: Town Looter

That's my final answer. I may prod-dodge if needed, but this is where my vote stays. I don't see me umming and ahhing is going to help us, I'm not going to be able to get away from this conclusion.

PEdit: LOL, ninja's by a vote count. Ah well, not modifying, just Pediting! :)
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Post Post #656 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:13 pm

Post by Town looter »

So I am looking through KAAGs ISO, and tbh I don't feel in any way confident we are going to win this game - my read appears to have a lot more OMGUS in it than I would like (which is zero OMGUS, for the record, my only comfort in this is KAAGs vote on me seems to have plenty of OMGUS as well). Between my inactivity and panic attack, Lunatics shitty votes, Cassowary's weird absence during no night kill and KAAG tunneling N_M (and my own personal view of his reaction to my play, but that really only helps me form a read), we are all lynchable. Yet only one of us is scum.

I still think KAAG is most likely to be scum (the first two are only really applicable to me, since you guys don't know I am town, but included for completeness):
  • As per previous post, his reaction to me
  • If Scum!Cass or Scum!Lunatic existed I think there would have been a stronger push for a lynch on either KAAG or I
  • The tunneling of N_M
  • His "poor play" that is contrary his experience, and a tactic that he used in 1684
Scum!KAAG
had
to lynch N_M because they knew they were the only scum going through after day 3, and there was no way they could let two PRs through. The same applies to Luna and Cass obviously, but they didn't
fight
for it like KAAG did

That being said, I am really interested in what both Cass and Lunatic make of posts through the hammer in . We haven't really talked about it a lot, but I think this is one of the most important passages in the game.

Pedit: Hmmm... I see your posts KAAG, but need time to think about them...
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Post Post #657 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:26 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

That being said, I am really interested in what both Cass and Lunatic make of posts 380 through the hammer in 413. We haven't really talked about it a lot, but I think this is one of the most important passages in the game.
I asked for a few hours to think, and cass and Lunatic just ignored me, double-voted and allowed Mikul to hammer. That bit?

You read the person who started the tunnel as scummy, more than those who jumped on "easily"?

I mean, if I was going to form reads based only on that section, I'd probably scum read Lunatic. I'd say the fact that you're asking Lunatic and cass to comment on that area as part of a case on me to be the final nail in your scum coffin. You think I am the only one you can get lynched. And you wrongly suggest starting a tunnel is usually scum!motivated. I disagree: jumping on the middle of a tunnel is usually far more scum!motivated.
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Post Post #658 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:32 pm

Post by Town looter »

That's the extent of my case by the way. It's a lot weaker than the case I built in my head. But the ISO has pushed me the other way if anything. I still think, right now, KAAG is the best lynch. But boy do I have some serious doubts.

pedit: That was why I asked - I wanted to know why they ignored you, and what they thought of the others vote. Given we have so little information, I was reverting back to early game tactics of probing questions. Your post against Mikul is something I only fleetingly thought about, but when I ISO'd you it stood out like dogs balls.
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Post Post #659 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:36 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

TL,

If I'm town, who is scum? cass or Lunatic?

If you are town, Lunatic is scum. That's my answer. I actually think you are scum, I'm just demonstrating all I want from you. A name. Don't even worry about a case.
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Post Post #660 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:43 pm

Post by Town looter »

In post 657, KickAssAndGiggle wrote: You read the person who started the tunnel as scummy, more than those who jumped on "easily"?
Yes, but the whole thing is shit.
  • Cass null argument, scummy vote, but consistent
  • Luna towny argument, scummy vote
  • KAAG scummy argument, less scummy but still scummy vote, but odd saving grace post
pedit: I don't know. Part of me thinks you are playing me like a fiddle right now, but in this hypothetical you are town, so you wouldn't be doing that right? :lol:

Gun to the head (lol), right now I would say Lunatic because that passage of play is stuck in my head and that L-1 vote was awful.
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Post Post #661 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:47 pm

Post by Town looter »

By awful I mean the passage of posting: they firstly ignore your post, then they do a flop onto NM and either hammer (because they saw Mikuls unformatted vote) or they L-1 knowing Mikul will hammer if they are scum...
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Post Post #662 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:56 pm

Post by Town looter »

I got to go to bed, are you still there?
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Post Post #663 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:57 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

But one of them is town, at least. Quite possibly both.

Lunatic is scummier in that passage. Work has just picked up, I can't go quote diving. But he was trying to "slow things down, are we sure its N_M etc etc" and then bang! "Hope you're not scum Mikul, vote N_M".

Why are you sounding towny today TL? :(
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Post Post #664 (ISO) » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:58 pm

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

Yeah, but I'm at work, can only post in like 3 minute intervals.

The problem is you have no posts in D2. Like, literally zero. And I know that's not entirely your fault. But how do I know what TL would have done had he been there?
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Post Post #665 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:14 am

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

cass,

Can Lunatic being scum here?
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Post Post #666 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:14 am

Post by KickAssAndGiggle »

EBWOP: uh..."be", not "being" LOL.
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Post Post #667 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:15 am

Post by Town looter »

Yeah... TL would've supported Lunatic's argument (well initial argument) - mostly because I didn't really have an issue with NMs play - sure it wasn't pro-town, but it was entertaining, and you can't take yourself too seriously playing this game. But, well, Scum!TL would say the same thing.

Anyway, gotta go.
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Post Post #668 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:50 am

Post by cassowary »

I've also been pretty slammed at work this week, for what it's worth.
In post 665, KickAssAndGiggle wrote:cass,

Can Lunatic being scum here?
I'm not necessarily opposed to it. I was scumreading Lunatic for a bit too after N_M went down; the Lunatic + Mikul quick hammer d2 definitely looks suspicious, especially from my perspective where it looks like an attempt to frame me. (This is one of the reasons I was scumreading
you
as well; your insistence that it made me look suspicious even though it doesn't make sense as a mafia ploy read weird to me.)

Also, while he's posted a fair bit over these past few days, a lot of it is kind of light on content. I actually mostly think my earlier scumread on him went away because other people seemed to be townreading him. But... looking at his older posts, I'm finding it difficult to read his interactions with Mikul as svs? Not impossible, but hard.

I'm still not convinced a lynch today is our best option. Obviously the remaining mafia believes that they have a better chance of winning by forcing a mislynch than winning a 3-person lylo. But since we know now that the mod will force a kill n5, I think waiting it out to get that townie confirmation is still our best bet. Does this make sense? Well, it makes sense to me, at least.
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Post Post #669 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:36 am

Post by Lunatic »

We are not no lynching again today. I dont want this game ending in a draw. Scum is between kaag and TL. Lets lynch one of them and win us this game. I'll post more in a bit just skimmed the recent posts. Something TL said recently jumped out as scummy to me.
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Post Post #670 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:41 am

Post by Lunatic »

Lunatic is scummier in that passage. Work has just picked up, I can't go quote diving. But he was trying to "slow things down, are we sure its N_M etc etc" and then bang! "Hope you're not scum Mikul, vote N_M".
You weren't listening to a thing I was saying and kept using logical fallicies by changing my argument remember? You used a non-sequitur and told me to justify N_M's previous day phase action. You had in your mind already made up that Not_Mafia was scum, and you stopped responding to my arguments. I never said anything about slow things down I don't think, I just wanted you to be open minded about it being Mikul, which you were not. At some point I realized it's probably best to lynch N_M because I wasn't all that confident I was right anyway about mikul, but even though I was leaning him it was going to be absolutely impossible to convince anyone he was scum based on the interactions that phase.
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Post Post #671 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:44 am

Post by Lunatic »

In post 656, Town looter wrote:Between my inactivity and panic attack, Lunatics shitty votes,
lol what
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Post Post #672 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:50 am

Post by Lunatic »

In post 656, Town looter wrote:Scum!KAAG had to lynch N_M because they knew they were the only scum going through after day 3, and there was no way they could let two PRs through. The same applies to Luna and Cass obviously, but they didn't fight for it like KAAG did
I'll ask you the same question I am asking myself; Do you think Kaag as scum would be that desperate to associate himself to mikul like that? The more I think about it, and him and his style, I just don't see it. I think someone like Kaag would have separated himself from mikul and pretended been more open about the situation if scum. Town Kaag while wrong, was at least consistent. At the end of DP1 he said he wouldn't mind too much if N_M got lynched because of his hammer.
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Post Post #673 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:53 am

Post by Lunatic »

With only 19 hours left, I am going to go with my logic over my gut here. While my gut is still telling me it is Kaag, I do not want to throw the game away over a gut read. I have screwed up like that in the past. I don't see Kaag lynching N_M as scum, and I still maintain cas is town. So POE; that makes scum Town Looter.

I am going to go ahead and place my vote on TL. Kaag if you are scum, well played.
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Post Post #674 (ISO) » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:53 am

Post by Lunatic »

VOTE: Town Looter
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