So here's my progression on Dkkoba.
Andres, your statement that I just jump on people instantly when they vote me is wrong. Dead Wrong.
He jumped into the game with a set-in-stone scumread on me. I asked him a bunch of questions to explain a few things. That's me interacting with him in a normal fashion, trying to get information and engage with him.
It wasn't until he kept adamantly refusing to say anything and kept degrading me that I voted him.
1.Testarossa - Prob town. Can find myself agreeing a lot with this.
2.DkKoba JamSV - Null. Not sure if DK is still going full troll RVS, or trying to push my buttons. If actually serious about scumreading me i'd love to see an explanation.
3.Datisi - I'd love this to be town. Indicators are there for datisi to be town. Is somewhat invested already (good sign). Is sorting. Unfortunately there is also paranoia because Datisi knows how to handle me if she's scum.
4.Alduskkel - I don't remember reading a lot from this slot. Null.
5.Snowblaze - prob town, same as with Testa. I liked the question about VP's conclusion when pushing me, and has a clear town intent in that.
6.Iconeum - believe it or not, i'm actually town
7.VP Baltar - ehhhh. Benefit of the doubt.
8.GeorgeBailey - prob town.
9.Andresvmb - ehhhh. Benefit of the doubt
10.jankofan - who is this even
11.NoPowerOverMe - If i had a gun in hand, and was forced to use it, i'd probably shoot here. Very opportunistic play so far.
12.hellbooks - prob town. Don't remember a ton of posts, but was sorting earlier.
13.Billy Pilgrim - Tough. Billy usually scumreads me when I'm town. And I'd like to think i'm fairly hard in my town-meta, it's rough to see him townread me. But that can easily be something he learned from the past games. I don't see much scum motivated posts. If anyone scumreads here, they should post a case on why they think Billy is scum.
Yeap i'm lacking scumreads
For information purposes, NPOW would actually be a great lynch.
i'm not saying she's not, but i'd like to hear your reasoning behind it
we can discuss that after u flip scum <3
you are sheeping my townreads but somehow i'm scum
also said townreads are basicly all townreading me but somehow you still think i'm scum
VOTE: dkkoba
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:40 pm
by Iconeum
In post 642, Andresvmb wrote:Okay but you’re getting in people’s faces only after they found a reason to vote you.
So let's recap
I got in the face of NPOW, but before he pushed me. So this doesn't hold up.
I got in the face of VP, after he pushed me. Sure. But I ended up with a better read on him (And I think vice versa as well).
I got in the face of koba, but only after I made a lot of effort to engage with him in a normal way. My previous post shows that.
So no I don't think it is a true statement andres.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:42 pm
by Iconeum
In post 648, Andresvmb wrote:It’s difficult for me to trust that you will point at the correct AI things to read your slot by, wouldn’t you agree? So I’m using my past experience to look for things I typically see a certain category of players do (at least to start), and see if they’re pointing me in the right direction. Then I’ll see more information, and recalibrate. Obviously reading games where you’ve played might help, but people are also constantly correcting for what they perceive to be Scum tells so it’s not fool proof.
You don't have to trust me. I don't expect you to. I wouldn't trust what my scumread is telling me either. But there are other players in this game who have a TON of experience with me and they are shouting at you and everyone else this is town!Ico.
Obviously you are allowed to use your own experience, but I hope I just showed you that you are just misreading what I'm doing?
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:42 pm
by Snowblaze
In post 607, VP Baltar wrote:
Speaking of snowblaze, they're another person I'd put in the "to yeet" pile with Billy Pilgrim for literally doing nothing so far to push the game forward. Particularly don't care for snowblaze's reaction to getting a few minor votes. Seemed quite exasperated to some mild pressure.
(snip)
Anyhow, right now we should yeet Billy or Snowblaze. Both are useless and high likelihood to be the scum who juuuuuust doesn't quite get the game state. They're both out of sync and trying to fit in like the 40 year old in a too-tight T-shirt at a singles mixer.
I don’t like this post, but I don’t even know if it’s AI at all. I just completely disagree on principle. (May or may not be because it’s me you’re talking about.)
The exasperation is because, as I mentioned earlier, I’ve been wagoned day one as town quite a bit recently and I don’t want it to happen again.
“doing nothing to push the game forward” - that’s kind of hard to do without scumreads a lot stronger than day-one-me ever gets unless I’m confbiasing.
“Useless”... no. Just no. That’s... really not true. I’m just approaching the game in a different way.
And even if I was “useless”, I don’t even see how that makes me scum as opposed to useless town.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:43 pm
by Iconeum
Like, datisi has been screaming that i'm town and that the reasons for scumreading me are in fact not indicative of anything.
Aldus even says i'm BLEEDING TOWN. I don't see anyone engaging with him over why and how he sees that.
So i get the feeling that people who scumread me don't want to know, because it doesn't fit their agenda. Do you understand that?
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:44 pm
by Andresvmb
You’re overextending my argument and making it sound absurd. I never argued that you had “instantaneously” voted players after they voted you. That would so bad and obvious that only a terrible player would do that. But it’s a rather quick progression from seeing a vote against you to placing a vote on them.
What DkKoba is doing btw - of ignoring you because they strongly SR you. That’s totally expected. You can’t convince Scum that they’re Scum is the logic. Far more experienced players than me have consistently quoted this back at me.
In post 607, VP Baltar wrote:
Speaking of snowblaze, they're another person I'd put in the "to yeet" pile with Billy Pilgrim for literally doing nothing so far to push the game forward. Particularly don't care for snowblaze's reaction to getting a few minor votes. Seemed quite exasperated to some mild pressure.
(snip)
Anyhow, right now we should yeet Billy or Snowblaze. Both are useless and high likelihood to be the scum who juuuuuust doesn't quite get the game state. They're both out of sync and trying to fit in like the 40 year old in a too-tight T-shirt at a singles mixer.
I don’t like this post, but I don’t even know if it’s AI at all. I just completely disagree on principle. (May or may not be because it’s me you’re talking about.)
The exasperation is because, as I mentioned earlier, I’ve been wagoned day one as town quite a bit recently and I don’t want it to happen again.
“doing nothing to push the game forward” - that’s kind of hard to do without scumreads a lot stronger than day-one-me ever gets unless I’m confbiasing.
“Useless”... no. Just no. That’s... really not true. I’m just approaching the game in a different way.
And even if I was “useless”, I don’t even see how that makes me scum as opposed to useless town.
I still think ur town.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:45 pm
by Snowblaze
In slightly more cheerful news, adding NPOM to my townleans. The repeated unvoting and backing off feels genuine, and I don’t think scum are as likely to do that when the wagons in question are still viable.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:46 pm
by Iconeum
In post 655, Andresvmb wrote:You’re overextending my argument and making it sound absurd. I never argued that you had “instantaneously” voted players after they voted you. That would so bad and obvious that only a terrible player would do that. But it’s a rather quick progression from seeing a vote against you to placing a vote on them.
What DkKoba is doing btw - of ignoring you because they strongly SR you. That’s totally expected. You can’t convince Scum that they’re Scum is the logic. Far more experienced players than me have consistently quoted this back at me.
excuse me? it's to be expected that koba doesn't want to interact with me at all? why's that?
and even then, he also completely refused to work with datisi, one of his stronger townreads.
it's not about convincing scum that they're scum. It's about making sure your read is right.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:46 pm
by Andresvmb
I really don’t see how you’re bleeding Town - I think that’s a terrible assessment. It’s fine if they want to excuse away some of what you’re doing because they’ve seen you do it elsewhere or whatever, but argue that it comes from certain Town... I’m going to disagree on that one.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:47 pm
by Iconeum
In post 657, Snowblaze wrote:In slightly more cheerful news, adding NPOM to my townleans. The repeated unvoting and backing off feels genuine, and I don’t think scum are as likely to do that when the wagons in question are still viable.
that's why i'm townreading VP at the moment. He backed off from my wagon at a time he didn't have to.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:48 pm
by Iconeum
In post 659, Andresvmb wrote:I really don’t see how you’re bleeding Town - I think that’s a terrible assessment. It’s fine if they want to excuse away some of what you’re doing because they’ve seen you do it elsewhere or whatever, but argue that it comes from certain Town... I’m going to disagree on that one.
but i also don't see you engaging with aldus on why he's wrong or wright
why is that?
as for the bleeding town part... you'll have to ask him. But I think I know.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:49 pm
by Andresvmb
I think it’s not an accurate statement that DkKoba has not been engaging with Datisi. They’ve clearly exchanged views on other players (Testarossa for example, where they disagree). Datisi seems very set on their ways, and is completely unwilling to vote for you. Clearly DkKoba feels otherwise. Sometimes convincing one player is not worth the effort.
In the (hopefully unlikely) event that you’re scum trying to pocket me, it’s working.
Maybe if I VOTE: hellbooks it’ll give the people townreading her some motivation to explain it, because all I can see in her ISO is shading several different players, including the ones she’s townreading.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:51 pm
by Iconeum
i've said what i wanted to say
if you can't get away from your scumread on me after this talk then you never will
everything you need to make a correct read on me is here
at the very least i appreciate you at least try to engage with me, that's how the game should be played
In post 659, Andresvmb wrote:I really don’t see how you’re bleeding Town - I think that’s a terrible assessment. It’s fine if they want to excuse away some of what you’re doing because they’ve seen you do it elsewhere or whatever, but argue that it comes from certain Town... I’m going to disagree on that one.
but i also don't see you engaging with aldus on why he's wrong or wright
why is that?
as for the bleeding town part... you'll have to ask him. But I think I know.
I’m not engaging Aldus on their read of you because we’re diametrically opposed, and they can read my reasoning and decide for themselves. I don’t have to fight every single player to come to my point of view. That would be far too exhausting.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:58 pm
by Iconeum
In post 665, Andresvmb wrote:I’m not engaging Aldus on their read of you because we’re diametrically opposed, and they can read my reasoning and decide for themselves. I don’t have to fight every single player to come to my point of view. That would be far too exhausting.
if ur town, you *should* in fact be engaging with aldus over that read. you should be making him explain what the bleeding part is according to him, in order to sort him. You should be trying to determine if his reasoning from his pov is legit coming from town, or perhaps he is the buddy to your scum!Ico read and you can catch him with bad reasonings when trying to help his scum buddy out.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:58 pm
by Iconeum
it's not about you making him change his mind, it should be about you trying to figure out other player's allignments based on what they are saying
it doesn't matter if aldus is right or wrong according to you, what matters is his motivation and where he is getting that read from
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:02 pm
by Iconeum
Even now it's really hard for me to get a read on you, Andres. A part of me feels like you are just dead set with your scumread on me, and are in fact tunneling. That means you don't see the good parts about me, even when I throw it in your face lol. You never responded to what I think are the good parts that you don't take into account.
And when I show you that your scumread is coming from a wrong conclusion (shown in several posts i just make), you still just go 'nope this is still scum'.
So ur a tunnelvisioning town, or scum not wanting to go away from me.
From the way ur interacting with me i'm leaning the first.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:16 pm
by Andresvmb
You know, the vast majority of games I play are short deadlines. Typically 48 hours, and rarely longer than 72 hours. So what I’m doing is I’m waiting on players to express themselves on the leading wagons of the game (that tend to form quickly), making a decision, and then re-ordering the game based on new information from the flip. I explain myself most of the time, but extensive case building just seems silly to me. This constant inflating and deflating of wagons is super tedious, and the vast majority of it is useless when sorting players. It’s the hard stances that matter, and the motivation behind them. For me, how people express themselves about the leading wagons and their reasoning is critical moving forward. I want to see that happen. This constant back and forth isn’t helpful. And I won’t figure out everyone’s alignment D1. But you can probe players once you have more information - and we just don’t have that yet.
do you think scum are committed to my lynch or not?
just like with VP, i'm not sure why scum would start backing down from the push on my at this point.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:55 pm
by Iconeum
or is that just me with the full paranoia *scum must be pushing me at this point* thing?
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:15 pm
by Testarossa
In post 671, Iconeum wrote:or is that just me with the full paranoia *scum must be pushing me at this point* thing?
That's what I meant yesterday. I don't really see why scum would be so interested in pushing you again and again. If you would be scum I feel like there would have been a stronger push on another wagon already.
The fact that no other wagon is really gaining traction indicates to me that scum is just happy with the gamestate and is probably just pretty passive. I see currently at most only one scum in Baltar or Andres. Also helps that I have a weak gut townlean on janko.
I wouldn't be too shocked if most of your fights would have been TvTs.
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:54 pm
by NoPowerOverMe
Sometimes you get information through banter and pressure.
i do not know (◕︿◕✿) andres is giving me that big Pocketing Koba Vibes, and just, pointing out in 322 and 327 how he's probably barking up the wrong tree, how his townreads are townreading ico, how i'm making a lot of valid points (and also pointing out there's no longer voting ico in 507 for some reason?) and is just like that now back. however i'm not done talking to janko and he's kinda Not Here right now so it's a bit hard judge where his head's at.
So when I put out a read that has some caution because it’s not strong, I’m fencesitting. But when I put out a stronger TR, I’m pocketing?
You have been very strongly defending Ico, and that made me doubt myself. But I have also said multiple times that I really do think Ico is Scum. You aren’t really trying to get my motivation or look at things from my perspective. You just think you’re right and I’m wrong, and therefore I’m Scum. Well you’re wrong. And why are you surprised that I’m back voting a slot that I have been consistently arguing against?
well, no. when you put out a read super early in the game that supports one side of the argument but leaves room to push the other, you're fencesitting. when you put out a stronger read on a player that lets you hop back on the wagon that is gaining traction again, you're pocketing
i don't scumread people for "being wrong", the easiest thing to be as scum is to be right. but if you truly believe i'm scumreading you for being wrong... that's not very town, is it? where am i in your reads?
ok, let's try this way. what are "lot of valid points" you think i've brought up in defense of ico in 327?
