@Gamma: I do not bait people into exhibiting scumtells. I wait for them to do it naturally. And I did ALWAYS try to apply that tell to you when I played you. It was just not as blatant as this time. I also always tried to avoid mentioning explicitly because you had told me about it in privacy (via a PM conversation) and I wanted to respect that. I only let it out this time because you demanded the explanation yourself. If you ISO me you'd see that I have tried to avoid explaining when others wanted me to.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:03 am
by Fun and Games
In post 636, Datisi wrote:if i definitely declare my read on ico one way or another now, and i'm wrong, it's going to be extremely hard to correct it later.
ok but you didn't have any trouble nailing him to a wall and murderifying him the last time he was scum(and that was like 5 hours into the game?) and you were town so uh, can you see why we are worried about your noncommitment here?
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:08 am
by Fun and Games
I guess it is somewhat unfair for us to hold you to the standard of "Datisi, Glorious Dragon Slayer of Legend"
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:11 am
by Datisi
i can see it. do you think i'm a miracle worker who, just because i once managed to figure out ico's alignment within 5 hours, i'm always gonna be able to do that? hell, this kinda thing has happened before. there are a few games where i nailed scum!bugspray in under 5 pages, and then there are later games where it took me much longer to read their alignment. my read rates on people aren't always consistent.
pedit: thank you
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:15 am
by Fun and Games
I mean it'd be unfair if Ico hasn't done anything for you to nail him with but he reads as kinda scummy to us so we're confused why you don't see it too?
but you have more experience with him then we do so...
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:17 am
by SirCakez
In post 620, Datisi wrote:that's not what i'm saying? i'm saying scum!you would be very aware you're wasting your time here. objectively, nobody is scumreading me other than you. and that is what you originally attacked me for.
push on enchant being that of lhf, anything else?
Your whole reaction to my push feels scummy. Like you're trying to belittle it and make it seem insignificant.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:18 am
by SirCakez
In post 620, Datisi wrote:that's not what i'm saying? i'm saying scum!you would be very aware you're wasting your time here. objectively, nobody is scumreading me other than you. and that is what you originally attacked me for.
so, my out-of-the-fridge-overnight scumcase of vp baltar:
the last two games the two of us have played together are mini normal 2195 and mini normal 2207. for the purposes of this post, all you need to know about 2195 is that i was scum, baltar was town, and his read on me was... not very correct.
in 2207, we were both town. however, due to the game taking place some two weeks after 2195, it took us a while to figure that out. somewhat early on in the game, this sequence between baltar and luca took place: (bolded and underlined the currently relevant parts)
I have a lot of experience with Datisi and Norwee and they both seem Town so far
Scum can be silly too
My opinion on you has nothing to do with Omgus, and is more in line with what Norwegian touched on before - you’re commenting on stuff but not really doing anything with it. Right now you’re assuming motives behind my reads without even bothering to question them
I have lots of experience with Datisi as well. It is too early to tell his alignment.
Repeating a point from Norwegian about me (which is very eh to begin with) is definitely in line with OMGUS.
in which baltar immediately pushed back on luca's townread on me, saying that it's way too early for it.
a little bit later on, i called him out for not having a read on me by that point (when i thought he should have one), and these are parts of our conversation that followed:
In post 378, Datisi wrote:i feel like he shouldn't be dead null on me still?
Why? You're gonna have to build trust with me after I went easy on you last game. Clearly the things I find town from your playstyle are fakeable, so I think I have every right to be skeptical of my ability there, yeah?
In post 387, VP Baltar wrote:I'm not saying there aren't differences. But but but...I'd expect you to make alterations if you DID happen to draw scum with me again.
For example, a big tell you did drop in that game was just never really pushing on me. (In some ways, I don't want to say this aloud, but I'm sure you know already). I can see you aren't doing that here, but I'm WIFOMing myself that perhaps you wouldn't do that again. FWIW, nothing about you this game has pinged me on a gut level as bad yet, which is a good sign. I did have some of those pings last game and I stupidly dismissed them as my own paranoia.
I do think I'll be able to sort you, but I expect it will take me a bit longer this time around.
In post 390, Datisi wrote:so what's the reason for you shutting down luca's townread of me then? @vp obviously
Because you are a good player, which he knows, and the better a player is, the more time you should probably take to be sure you're sorting them correctly.
and, my personal favourite:
Spoiler:
In post 1069, VP Baltar wrote:I hope your scum win made you happy, because now I see darkness behind every corner.
all of these are showing a healthy dose of paranoia of me. most of his play around me that game, especially early, was careful. he wasn't letting me pick up easy townreads, because he knew how much damage scum!me can do when i'm being townread.
compare these quotes to this game? it's night and day. there is NO paranoia, there is zero caution, he's calling me town for most flimsy reasoning of gut and vibes, he doesn't concern himself at all that the vast majority of the game is townreading me for potentially bad reasons. he's vibing. this is why i asked him to elaborate on his townread of me. without actually solid reasons, it just... felt like pocketing.
however, if he truly didn't remember that i was scum in 2195, and wasn't thinking of that game at all, then i'm not sure just how much of this scumcase is valid. typing it out, i do like it again, but ehhh.
as for the tinfoil of lying about not remembering a game that i mentioned in 603: if he realized that he's "forgotten" to show paranoia of me, and realized that i know he should be showing paranoia of me, then "haha i just didn't remember that one game where you had a good scum performance!" is a way to get out of being caught on the basis of not showing paranoia.
also, unrelated to the above, 483 and 489 are disgusting, but i have to run through some meta checks to see if they're scum!indicative. those meta checks require reading through a few isos to see if my memory of games that took place a year and a half ago is correct. that will have to wait, as that is not something i feel like doing on a friday night.
Ok if you are town this is actually a good case though because that tell of not being paranoid is a good one and I've gotten caught from it before
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:21 am
by Datisi
In post 656, SirCakez wrote:Your whole reaction to my push feels scummy. Like you're trying to belittle it and make it seem insignificant.
nah fam, if i were scum i'd have gotten into a 10-page-long discussion with you where i would be mincing your words and going in circles and try to make you look as shit as possible. like, i'm sorry but your read on me is just bad. i'm not stopping you from trying to convince others about it, but i will be pointing out what i think is bad about it.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:23 am
by SirCakez
Ok then I don't think this discussion can help this progress any more because we clearly disagree
In post 638, VP Baltar wrote:It's kind of silly to think I should be super paranoid about you forever because I lost to you once as scum. Of course the game directly after that I am going to be super on guard about my own biases. Doesnt mean that paranoia is a life long affliction or that I didn't learn from those mistakes.
of course, i wouldn't expect you to have paranoia about me in every single game we play forever. but even then, it's such a stark contrast. i'd expect you to pick up on some of my meta tells and learn from your mistakes, but i just have a feeling i'm not really seeing it being applied here?
As I stated above, I think you're comparing two events that are very distance in time and circumstances from each other.
I don't really know what to say about a game I didn't even remember.
Like, you're trying to say my meta is I'm paranoid of you....but that is not really how I play this game in general. You're a good player for sure, but so is basically everyone is this game. Does that mean I shouldn't get gut reads on people based on the play I see in front of me?
I also meant it when I said I'll know you're scum if you continue to live too long. So I guess I'm just not worrying myself too much at this moment if my initial reaction to your play is fully accurate or not.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:30 pm
by Datisi
i was mostly interested in the "i learned from those mistakes" part, but i might have misunderstood what you meant by it. after all, me usually getting killed as town is a thing. fine, you get to live for now.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:39 pm
by VP Baltar
In post 664, Datisi wrote:i was mostly interested in the "i learned from those mistakes" part, but i might have misunderstood what you meant by it. after all, me usually getting killed as town is a thing. fine, you get to live for now.
By that, I mean understanding when it feels like you're being manipulative in your approach to the game or asking earnest questions.
I don't think I'm an expert on the mysteries of datisi, but you're probably the person I've played with the most consistently since coming back to the site in 2019. So at least I have some baseline to reference when I feel a twinge of suspicion.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:52 pm
by VP Baltar
Ok, I'm signing off for weekend VLA. I may still check on my phone, but I'm guessing I'll have some catching up to do Sunday when I get back.
I don't think I ever said that, actually. Post 503 (which I assume is what you're referring to) is me saying that Dunn's take on your push on him was questionable, and that your play as a whole has given me weird feels. Those two things are mostly unrelated. Post 352 I talk about your push on Dunn, but more in a sense that you're not pushing other people and I'm not sure how I feel about that than that I dislike the push itself.
I can't really argue that I was super interested in voting Dunn (because I wasn't) but tbh I wasn't super interested in voting anyone. That's why I hadn't moved my vote off of you and why I'm sheeping A50 rn.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:58 pm
by Bingle
In post 639, Gamma Emerald wrote:Also scum!bingle likes to focus on mech vs. faking solving so townreading bingle for anything to do with mech is bad play
?
This is just wrong. My entire thing is that I mechspeak from a purely NAI place. Like, townreading me for mechspeak is bad, but I don't particularly lean into it as scum over town. I mechspeak exactly as much as I feel the situation calls for it, regardless of my alignment, because my first interest in mafia is from a game theory/design standpoint and I find the social manipulation/deduction to be secondary (but still fun). More, you know that. We spent an entire game in a mason chat where I got so bored with the solved game that literally all I did was mechspeak.
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:10 pm
by Gamma Emerald
I don’t remember being in a masonry w you ever lol
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:16 pm
by Bingle
In post 625, VP Baltar wrote:We accept you as a provisional member of the Olds. A few more years and you'll be in the inner circle. (There is IcyHot)
Can I be a provisional member of the Olds? I'm only 29 but I've had heart issues since I was 15, a bum leg that sometimes requires a cane because of nerve damage, Sciatica, chronic migraines and have had Shingles twice. Also, hair loss that leaves me oddly reminiscent of A50's avatar. And I rant about how the youths are ruining my mafia.