Mafiascum.net

↑ gossamer wings wrote:

↑ The Fonz wrote:Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them,

Why is this scummy? His playstyle differs from yours and he tends to hunt scumteams rather than individual scum.

Because it betrays a lack of town motive. Town wants to get their suspects lynched. Not prioritising makes you less effective at doing that.

Also, you can't just go 'His playstyle is to hunt entire scumteams on page two.' That is insane, no-one in their right mind would consider that an effective way to scumhunt.

↑ The Fonz wrote:having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist,

There are plenty of players who never provide cases or reasons for their reads and in my experience, the ones that tend to provide lots of reasoning as town also provide lots of reasoning as scum. He was also trying to sort me to see if I agreed with his reads and why. Why is this alignment indicative?

Because providing your reasoning is, again, something you do if you want people to join you on a wagon. If you aren't trying to convince other people to vote with you, then you aren't really trying to proactively catch scum. Combine the first two points, and you've got a player who seems not to care whether anyone else votes with him or not. Sometimes, people have playstyles that involve doing lots of antitown things - chronic lurkers, no-explanation guys like Chamber. It's one things to make allowances for how these specific guys are acting and to consider it relative to that player's 'normal.' That doesn't mean you should never vote players for doing these things when you have no meta on them at all (which is the case with me and 4T) because literally any scumtell could be part of an individual's playstyle.

↑ The Fonz wrote:and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town.

Which post are you referring to here?

As I said above, I misspoke here - the post I was talking about was made by CuttyShark. #312. I don't particularly want to talk about this, though.

↑ The Fonz wrote:Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.

I read your MD article on why wagoning newbies early on is bad for the game. I doubt FT has and I wouldn't expect him to draw the same conclusions that you did. Although I don't follow his reasoning there either.

Right, so this is the thing. I expect anyone who sees a post to think 'Why would town do that? Why would scum?' There's a difference between and He might disagree with me that declining to wagon Lissa there is the best town play. He should at least consider that I might believe that to be the case.

Also, please note the single strongest point against FourT, which is the stuff about his reaction to 5-Off.

↑ The Fonz wrote:I expect anyone who sees a post to think 'Why would town do that? Why would scum?' There's a difference between expecting FourTrouble to see things the way I do and expecting FourTrouble to think about whether there's actually any reason to think that scum, in particular, would do that. He might disagree with me that declining to wagon Lissa there is the best town play. He should at least consider that I might believe that to be the case.

Why assume I didn't consider these things?

↑ FourTrouble wrote:

↑ The Fonz wrote:I expect anyone who sees a post to think 'Why would town do that? Why would scum?' There's a difference between expecting FourTrouble to see things the way I do and expecting FourTrouble to think about whether there's actually any reason to think that scum, in particular, would do that. He might disagree with me that declining to wagon Lissa there is the best town play. He should at least consider that I might believe that to be the case.

Why assume I didn't consider these things?

Because you didn't in any way indicate you had considered those things, and if you had it's hard to see how you could possibly have still voted for me. The second one considers that, one notes there's really obvious town reasons for acting as I did, and no real scum advantage. You just accused me of being 'unwilling to vote' which is bullshit, because I was voting. I have no idea what you thought I, in the counterfactual where I'm scum, was trying to achieve. Therefore, I note your attack on me to not be scumhunting, but mudslinging.

Fonz, I never voted for you. Nor did I say you were "unwilling to vote." See below:

↑ FourTrouble wrote:Fonz -- calling Lissa out but not committing was bullshit + he voted me.

You're consistently misreading things I've said, and saying I did things I never did. This isn't the first time this has happened. Any explanation for why you're doing that?

↑ The Fonz wrote:Because you didn't in any way indicate you had considered those things, and if you had it's hard to see how you could possibly have still voted for me. The second one considers that, one notes there's really obvious town reasons for acting as I did, and no real scum advantage.

This is also untrue. I may not have explicitly indicated that I was considering what your motives were, but that doesn't mean I wasn't doing so. I tried to explain this before but I wasn't very clear, so I'll try again. The problem I had was not your lack of a vote for Lissa. It was the complete lack of any position at all. I was unable to discern a town motive behind that, especially in conjunction with your vote for me (lynching town is a clear scum motive). The other obvious scum motive here is not taking a position, which lets you go either direction, depending on what's popular later.

The "don't vote newbies early" idea -- which apparently is something you've been saying elsewhere -- is not something I've heard before. The site where I used to play with F-16, the opposite was true: voting newbies first was standard operating procedure. The reason for that was because we didn't know anything about how they play, which means reading them will be harder. The idea was to pressure them early, since the chances they would respond naturally as scum was lower than for a veteran player. I don't agree with that reasoning, but that strain of thought exists.

I'm curious though, what's this "obvious town reason" for not voting a newbie? It's certainly not "obvious" to me.

Fonz, assuming I'm town, who would you lynch?

↑ FourTrouble wrote:Fonz, I never voted for you. Nor did I say you were "unwilling to vote." See below:

↑ FourTrouble wrote:Fonz -- calling Lissa out but not committing was bullshit + he voted me.

You're consistently misreading things I've said, and saying I did things I never did. This isn't the first time this has happened. Any explanation for why you're doing that?

I mean, if you didn't vote me, I was sure you did. As for 'unwillingness to vote,' I think what I was actually remembering was thiss:

Hesitance to vote always is a scum tell to me

Which was from Honey Bee, vs you saying 'Calling out but not committing' which is a similar sentiment. I guess I get people attacking me with bullshit mixed up. Love the scummy leading question at the end, though.

↑ FourTrouble wrote:Fonz, assuming I'm town, who would you lynch?

That's really tough. I've been mulling over this the last couple of RL days. Part of the reason I'm sticking on you is that I don't really see a better option. Quite a lot of people look town to me. So I suppose PoE:

Definitely not Baboon or Lissa who are strong town reads
Not Sark today. I'm sorry I can't elaborate.
Gossamer = good players, so I'm not going to put them in a town pile yet because they can fake well as scum, but I have no active reason to suspect them today
5-Off: Having different information in his role PM to the other neighbors, if true, implies things that make me not want to lynch him.
Ree has not contributed at all for non-game-related reasons, so I feel it's better to wait, because he can be read when he's posting
Honey Bee: As I said, feels full of crap to me, but I'm worried this is just my OMGUS instinct talking. Massively undercontributing. Probably an OK fallback lynch, but ugh... I guess I'd like to see some stuff that's neither directly relating to me nor a catch-up post, which would make reading them easier. Kind of get the feeling this one is on the replace train.
Flubbernugget: Awaiting replacement, probably a good idea to wait for that replacement. Don't buy Shark's 'case.'
Anatole: I got a really strong gut feeling of 'This guy, though wrong, genuinely believes what he's saying' early on (I get the opposite feeling from you - you feel, at a gut level, dishonest). I liked that he reconsidered his view of Lissa when potentially exonerating information that he seemed to have missed was pointed out to him. Uses meta, moderate positive. Probably a weak town lean.
IHNC: Clearly scumhunting using the town wincon early on. In a derpy way, but I don't see that as coming from scum.
Nashville: Eh, pushing a weird case. I guess I could maybe see a vote here, but I don't see any one reason I'd want to hang my hat on.

So no-one else is really worse than null, except for Honey Bee, who seems like a relatively poor player who is also attacking me, which feel like things that would generate false positives in my mind.

Been watching football all day and would like to continue doing so - will get back into the thick of it tomorrow / D1 mist is starting to get to me - need to probably do a hard reset and coordinate reads with skrew

-b

Fonz, why is Baboon a strong town-read?

The following is not a country song.



So like I'm in this mood and this song wasn't what I was looking for because I had another song in mind, but this one works too because its so fucking beautiful. I can't this show.

Anyways what I really meant to say is Tammy I'm going to look into what my partner thinks is a scum slip. I mean at first it pinged me because I remember Tammy and I once talking about how she caught nacho due to a very similar thing, but I got mixed signals there. Plus the fact she can't figure out that my partner switched it, not the head that was townreading Tammy prior to that.

hey Lissa

is there a reason why you are vote parked on 4trouble?

~M

↑ FourTrouble wrote:Lissa, two things. First, some clarification. Earlier in the game, I suspected IHNC and Baboon at the same time. I expected Baboon be harder to read, so IHNC was my vote, while I tried to discuss Baboon with F-16 (also intended to get at F-16's alignment, which is important for my sanity -- personally I think he's one of the most dangerous mafiosos around, though I may be the only one to say this). Then, while rereading the game, I noticed 5-Off's response to F-16's question. 5-Off interpreted F-16's question as an attack on alignment rather than an attack on playstyle. That was a problem, so I voted 5-Off, since keeping my vote on IHNC wasn't doing anything. When 5-Off started posting more, I liked what they were saying. Reread them again. Saw their questions to Flubber and Nashville, liked those. Around this time, Anatole was pushing Baboon, which I also liked. So I decided to go after Baboon, who I had suspected since much earlier. So there isn't really much "switching" here. There are many moments of rereading and reevaluating what's going on, but overall, I'm actually surprised by how consistent my reads have been this game. Anyway, hopefully that clears up what you're calling "odd."

Second thing, please read 531, 537, and 576. Please reconsider Baboon's alignment. And please tell me if, after reading those posts, you still think Baboon is town, and if town, why I'm wrong.

First thing - got it.

Second thing - here is what I am thinking.
On 531 - I don't think their certainty is excessively high. It makes sense to me - they are reading me as town, they are thinking 5-Off is telling the truth, that leaves you if there is indeed scum in the neighborhood. I'm not entirely sure if that's included in their reasoning, but my reasoning includes some of that. Stuff like the supposed plagarism thing is not why I scumread you - I think you should have mentioned that Baboon first said what you said (and I thought it was odd that you hadn't seen it), but I don't think it's inherently scummy that you didn't.
On 537 - I don't really think her read on you is that bad. It's a weak case, yes. But I am not sure that's scummy in itself.
On 576 - not really sure what to think of this post. I don't see much of relevance in it that you hadn't said before.

I will see if I can fully explain my Baboon townread tomorrow. (weekends like to make me lazy and it's late now, sorry.) And if I can't explain it, I will reevaluate. Because Four, I'm actually feeling like you're kind of making a decent case right now.

↑ Nashville Dreams wrote:hey Lissa

is there a reason why you are vote parked on 4trouble?

~M

I have felt for a while that he has a fair chance of being scum. My scumread on him goes a bit beyond "latching onto something shiny."
Though I'm currently wondering if I might want to reevaluate. I'll leave it until tomorrow.

So

taking a stance is scummy, and so is not taking a stance. got it.

Also, is anyone really any reading what I am saying?

Also, I think it was Falcon who brought it up, but I dont particularly care about wether or not 5-off has played mafia before ms, he is new and that means he is new to a whole different level of mafia. I had two years experience prior to coming on here, i have made it known, and I always had a confident scum-game but it doesnt change the genuine tone that happened when he assumed everyone else had the same info in their pm that hr had in his, and it closely matches tje genuineness I had when claiming scum in wingate mansion (not sure if you read that game, but you can run it by tammy)

I can also link many games where It's been stated that my reasoning was "bad" yet, was on scum if people want, but ft is pretty fucking scum.

Earlier FT was saying our reason for him being scum was non-existent.

Now he is staying it there, just that it's fake and contrived.

Ft says he thought we were competent enough as scum, yet is using all these easy scum-tells that is generally not done my competent scum... I think? Not that sure

but, he certainly isn't taking into consideration that I generally am mislyncyed more than correctly lyched, and he was seen (iirc) more of ky town games than my scum ones.

He has stated that he is 'active' when I have stated his lack of proactivity bothered me greatly. changed this later I think? But this was definitely a viable point I made.

Despite that viable point, he continues to say the the only viable point I made was an omgus one, though my point was that hrs easy trying to hide it.

Not sure what to do with falcon info that he is a firm believer that omgus is town, because I hold a similar belief and I use it in my games to "look town" and I would kinda expect him to do the same? Regardless, it was another viable point I had made.

I also explained why I thought the plagiarism had scum intent. I had assumed he had read my post, he posted there before hand, and I am not a mind-reader.

It's what I was thinking at that point in time, and I didn't even use it as a driving point after he had explained he hadn't read my post, I had others.

Ft had gotten more active after being stated as possible scum. which I noted as weird

Also, being to certain early game is pretty shitty, because I have games where I was able to get reads that were accurate as early as page one, and stuck to said reads all game.