Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[ofrhz]

Given the current state of town dysfunction, my suspicions on lurkers have heightened further. northsidegal, please post.

I've only scanned the posts about the wagon, but the arguments made by Oxy are plausible. I initially disagreed with the Drixx L-1 too, but after reading other opinions about how the wagon could have played out, I think Oxy/ruru both confidently bet on the fact no one would hammer. I do think skitter is pushing Oxy harder than she ever pushed anyone so far in this game based on rather thin evidence. But I can't tell if this is because skitter really thinks Oxy is scummier than everyone else or if skitter just read what eth0s said earlier about her passive play and is now overcompensating. My gut instincts are telling me that this isn't scum!skitter trying to push for an Oxy mislynch

UNVOTE: Drixx since I don't think he's even realized he was at L-1 at some point in this game lol, so this pressure vote isn't doing anything.

pedit: Oh speak of the devil

[Drixx]

Okay, team town (Ruru, Ofrhz, Skitter30), I think it would behoove us to coordinate our pressure. My preference for targets would be, in order, Eth0s, Drixx, Sajj, NSG. That's not in order of scumminess, but rather of priority. I would be happy with any of them! Ofrhz seems to prefer drixx. Ruru and I are already on Eth0s.

Plan? I think we should put them at L-1, give them 24 hours to post something that isn't garbage, and then hammer them if they don't. End of day is not really all that far away, and right now I'm worried that we're going to disperse to our own corners and sit on our thumbs.

Thoughts?

P.S. @Pinturicchio I'm not giving you a team jersey yet, but you can drop the hammer if/when it becomes appropriate.

This is a really bad post. There's also a really bad post much later where Oxy makes the "Scum wouldn't play the way I have" appeal. That's pure bunk. Unless I find something better while I continue reading:

VOTE: Oxy

[skitter30]

Also I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying ffs; you're being kinda blatant. Like hi I'm not voting you cuz of 547, and that's why I went through this whole thing last night and this mroning by trying to understand what you meant this whole time instead of just voting you for your pin vote.

I'm 100% not the lynch today because if you think I'm the scummiest person in this game you're off your rocker. On. What. Planet. Does. Scum!Oxy. Play. This. Game?????????????????????????

I don't know - if it wasn't apparent, I'm not really understanding your motives. I mean, now what you're trying to say is a lot a more clear but that isn't what I thought was happening at the time.

I really think I need to take a step back and reread how that whole wagon formed cuz at this point I think I might be misunderstanding what was going on there.

One more thing: I'm kinda worried about the deadline of this day, because this sunday is easter and I don't know how that will affect the participation of some players in this game. I know for sure it will affect my posting as I'm going to spend this weekend with my family and we're leaving home, so I will have limited access and only through my phone. Is anyone else having that problem like me? Because if I'm not the only one, maybe we should ask the mod to extend the deadline, or we're going to make a pressured decision. I'm not up to any policy lynches, I don't advocate to that kind of strategy.

I'm Orthodox Jewish and tomorrow night is Passover and I'm not going to be online at all from tomorrow night till Sunday night and my family's traveling so yeah an extension would be nice.

[Drixx]

Here's something funny: the last time I ate pesto I got intoxicated; this was on February of 2017. I said I would never eat pesto again because I started to feel nauseous everytime I smelled it. Today I ate pesto again, and I got intoxicated yet again... Listen to your body, kids.

I'll catch up tomorrow since I'm going to be in bed, but for what I've seen since I conf!towned Oxy:
@Oxy: I don't like too much your team town. I like your case on skitter but I have to make my own read on her to convince myself; ruru is giving me better vibes but that could be coordinated with her partner, sometimes it feels she is being coached; and obviously, I want my jersey please... But I'm with you about ofrhz now, and if I had to build my own dream team right now, even if I'm not fully convinced on skitter, the only change would be ruru for eth0s. I know you will hate me for this, but pleeeeease trust me on this. And about your target's preference: my own target preference now is Drixx and Scioness, in that order. Yesssss I have my new conspiracy theory on the way.

What I'm trying to say is basically my readlist:
Townreads: Oxy and ofrhz
Townlean: skitter30 and eth0s
Null: NSG
Scumlean: ruru
SCUMTEAM: Drixx and Scioness

Won't vote tho, I don't like voting without explaining and as I said, food poisoning will delay this until tomorrow.

Sorry you had food poisoning.

Care to explain how you have me as lock scum at a point in the game where I had made like 8 posts?

You like ... weren't even on my radar until I saw you offering up a firm scum read on so little.

[Drixx]

Ugh ... so much on page 17. I hope I don't feel the need to respond once for each page, but I do for this one.

ayyyy! That's L-1.

@Drixx Please post something pro-town.

I'll be here another 15 minutes, but then I'm off to bed. I don't expect to hear from Drixx tonight. Good job, team town!

These two posts give me the heebie jeebies. Combined with what comes after, I really cannot imagine a town mindset that produces these posts by Oxy.

don't unvote - no one in this game is stupid enough to lol hammer as town before hearing from drixx.

If someone were to lol hammer, you lynch them D2 with 100% chance they are scum

Here Oxy is chiding Skitter for unvoting me, and expresses certainty that anyone hammering me (and leading to my greenie flip) would be lynched automatically on day two with "100% chance" of being scum. The underlying assumption here is that I'm town. Oxy spends quite a few posts trying to walk this assumption back by referring to this as "standard" town play and such, but the damage is done. Especially when compared to the next post I quoted.

(As a side note: in one of my first few games on site I accidentally hammered someone who had a claimed guilty against them on the same page. That someone turned out to be the COP with a guilty. He managed to show up in twilight and let us know. The next day, the claimed guilty person claimed miller and then someone else claimed miller. I told the game that there was no miller and the scum team had a rolecop and that's why they fake guiltied the cop. The miller claim and counterclaim was made so that when we lynched the cop guilty he would indeed come up guilty and the miller claim would look like an attempt to explain the cop results and the COUNTER-claim was actually a scum partner whom the game would assume really was a miller and had helped us catch scum with the counter-claim. To make a long aside short: they lynched me and I called the scum team and precisely what they were doing exactly. -- Moral of the story: You don't

always

lynch a lolhammer, and it's not always a good idea to do so. Out in the various queues, people doing a lolhammer get strung up for it way less often than not ...

which is why it's weird for Oxy to be pushing the idea that a lolhammer on me would result in absolutely lynching said person tomorrow. That's not actually a safe assumption to make in any case.

)

well, I think one of a few things will happen

1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds
2) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive, and his partner does their best to break this beautiful town circle apart (chainsaw argument)
3) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner makes a case on someone outside the town circle but in our null/scum reads, again trying to break up this town circle
4) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner stays inactive and we lynch scum

there are probably some other possibilities. It's a dynamic game. Trust your instincts. If one of those scum teams exist, this is where they will start to make mistakes.

This post is all kinds of scuzzy. In Oxy's mind only two things can happen?

1.) I make some kind of grand slam post on day one of a game that I'm clearly not keeping up with (and even said I would be way less active than usual until day 2 because of my job)
2.) I "flail" or "stay inactive"

This combined with the previous is just odious.

they could also lol hammer him for town cred, but you lynch the lol hammer-er regardless of drixx's flipp just on policy.

Ewww... gross gross gross gross.

[Drixx]

I'm Orthodox Jewish and tomorrow night is Passover and I'm not going to be online at all from tomorrow night till Sunday night and my family's traveling so yeah an extension would be nice.

Happy Passover. I hope your Seder is a great time for your family and reflection.

I'm doing a traditional Seder for my family this year. We're ethnically Jewish, but not orthodox.

[Drixx]

Sorry for the multi-post, but someone told me huge walls make people super apathetic.

@Oxy - Can you explain to me how you have a town block you have constantly been referring to since very early in the game and (so far as I've caught up) throughout day one? That strikes me as either a slip or some very irrational overconfidence. I'd appreciate a thorough explanation.

[Scioness Sajj]

I have been reading about drixx's wagon and it really bothers me that nobody considered wagoning NSG for pressure.
She has been catching up for about four days at that time, has rather low content posts and been on site doing other things.

I mean lurking has been talked about this game. the pressure votes were only on eth0s and drixx, so the two people that we had the least info that could sustain active lurking as reasoning.

eth0s - lack or content(?) = scummy -> can be lurking
Drixx - vague posts = scummy -> can be lurking
NSG - posted very few things, is doing other stuff on the site, didn't catch up just yet even though she said she was - got a townread from pin and that's about it?

[Scioness Sajj]

Even though she said she has been instead of she said she was

[Scioness Sajj]

I understand that people are more interested in voting people they found scummy but hmm inactivity seemed to be main reason for the wagon yet the wagon on drixx with no proof for game reasons inactivity was build so this makes me think there was actually intent to lynch and not pressure? Opportunistic mislynch?
I don't know if this makes sense, I'm thinking

[Scioness Sajj]

I meant what I'm saying makes sense it just may not be clear what I'm talking about and needs some facts checking

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm only catching up rereading on phone today. Posts tomorrow.

[Drixx]

Back from doing dinner. I probably will not finish catching up until tomorrow early afternoon. I'll get as far as I can though. I hate leaving you all hanging.

[ofrhz]

Sajj, what do you look for when you scumhunt? If this question is too direct, can you just explain what a "scummy town read" (i.e. your read on ruru) means?

Also why aren't you voting for nsg? A wagon's gotta start somewhere.

[ofrhz]

But I can't tell if this is because skitter really thinks Oxy is scummier than everyone else or

if skitter just read what eth0s said earlier about her passive play and is now overcompensating.

l

Please disregard this. Upon rereading, the whole post-Drixx wagon discussion between skitter et al took place long before eth0s showed up with his reads.

[ofrhz]

Stay tuned for Drixx' case, on the next episode of DBZ!

Did you get around to posting your case on Drixx? I still need to carefully go through page 26 and onward, but in case you haven't yet, I didn't want this to fall through the cracks.
-----
I'm still townreading skitter as of 500.
-----

This game is auto.

Lynch eth0s, pin, NSG, and Drixx in that order and we win the game.

My bet in 2 lynches, Almost certainly in three lynches, and certainly by 4 lynches. I'll be following the votes of my town reads within those 4. Okay I said certainly but there's probably a <10% chance that Skitter30 is scum, and <5% chance of either ruru ofrhz is scum and <<1% chance that both scum are within those 3.

This is a weird argument. Earlier a major part of your defense on the Drixx wagon was that you were "willing to lynch lurkers" (a pro-town move to encourage activity), but didn't want to actually lynch lurkers (which is anti-town). But at the time of this post, it seemed like you definitely thought lynching lurkers was a viable strategy? (3 out of 4 people on that list were inactive)

[ofrhz]

fine post but I just feel like this is a perfect example of people being able to post enough to not be sparse, but also just focus on the 1v1 and hope one of them gets lynched. The fact that ofrhz says this is tvt honestly makes me think its tvs because

if it were tvt then literally everyone in the game would probably try to instigate the 1v1 participants into a wagon.

Can you explain this a bit more? Did you mean, if this was TvT, then people (scum?) would have wanted to sheep Oxy and Scioness onto separate wagons?

@Ruru

how do you feel about me now?

Quoting this because I'm also interested in the answer.

that's a really bold statement to make

when you just suggested I could be town

. So you are fine with Drixx scumreading 2 "town" and one potential town? pfft.

You're mistaken here. I just went back to reread Oxy's posts, and he said you were a slight scumlean in 344 (and to go further back, he also said you were slightly scummy in 287).

unannounced L-1??

Huh, I don't know how I missed the fact that this vote was unannounced originally.

ayyyy! That's L-1.

@Drixx Please post something pro-town.

scummy post!!

At the risk of wifom, would scum be this fucking obvious?

way over confident. backpedaling.

once again moving on to the lynch option that he sees most possible

and apologizing to everyone that he needs on his side. It almost seems like too blatant of manipulation but I am 100% okay with lynching him today. Gonna get fully caught up first so I can see progression and votecount but yeah. Even if he's town we will get good info. I initially put too much stock into his game-solving ability, I think.

I agree with the bolded part.

[ofrhz]

In 245, something is not true = something is a lie.

This isn't even relevant to the game anymore, but I feel like I have to explain this. No, when I said "this is not true," I meant to say "you're mistaken." This is different from accusing you of lying, because being "mistaken" means unintentional whereas "lying" implies intent. Anyway, here's to not misunderstanding each other moving forward.

once again, Oxy gets scumread and then starts townreading the person that does it (this time it's me). I think that's everyone that has called him scummy so far.

I think this is a reach. You were a bit scummy before by virtue of "hey guys i'm gonna show up tomorrow!" and then flaking on us. And after you posted your analysis, you seem kinda town to me. So I think chalking this to "Oxy pockets people who scumread him" is a stretch.

I'm pretty sure the posts are there, I will look for them tomorrow.

Please don't spend time doing this. Unless you want to.

There's a fallacy there. That only applies if you can apply the law of excluded middle, and you cannot here. There are four possible sets:

{Scum, Scum}
{Scum, Town}
{Town, Scum}
{Town, Town}

There exists a possible set where we have not p, but still q

I'm a little too intoxicated to tell if you're right or not. But irregardless, are you going to clarify those two cryptic posts you posted earlier in the game?

Also I don't remember why I was townleaning ruru earlier. I think she's now trying too hard to scumread skitter, a la 632 and 626.

VOTE: ruru

Chag Sameach and happy Easter to all celebrating!

[ofrhz]

@Ruru

how do you feel about me now?

Quoting this because I'm also interested in the answer.

ebwop:
Ruru answered this question, so please ignore. This is what I get for making a ton of posts in succession.

[ruru]

About scheduling: I'm generally unavailable during evenings over the next few days. I wouldn't mind an extension either.

Also if it's me/drixx, scum!me has no reason to pick drixx to vote out of {scioness/nsg/drixx/eth0s} there if that was the proposed plan. I could very easily have voted eth0s; there were two votes there and I could've just let the 24-hour lynch thing happen without involving partner!drixx in it at all to get a mislynch and let the day end fast. Like if I was scum with drixx there's no reason for me not to just support the plan on anyone not my partner without starting all of this in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree that there is no benefit to scum!skitter in choosing scum!Drixx (and I mentioned some of the benefits in my post), but I still need to think a bit more on whether or not scum!skitter would actually do it. And I really don't think it's an alternative to "just let the 24-hour lynch thing happen [...] to get a mislynch and let the day end fast". I find it really hard to imagine a universe where that actually happens, and actively pushing it after 24h would make you look extremely scummy.

Also, I agree that Oxy's vote on pin was weirdly timed, but I feel like it was not necessarily out of character.

Idk what to say beyond this isn't how scum!me would ever play that partnered with scum!drixx. I would never promote a wagon on my partner and put pressure on him and call attention to his lurking-ness if I had multiple other options to push that would be just as easy to push.

Like I would be too worried of oxy's plan actually coming to fruition (even if I didn't think it was immediately going to happen) to start messing around with promoting a wagon on an inactive partner.

Mm, I can see this. At the very least I don't think scum!skitter is a positive indicator of scum!Drixx at this point.

Here Oxy is chiding Skitter for unvoting me, and expresses certainty that anyone hammering me (and leading to my greenie flip) would be lynched automatically on day two with "100% chance" of being scum. The underlying assumption here is that I'm town. Oxy spends quite a few posts trying to walk this assumption back by referring to this as "standard" town play and such, but the damage is done. Especially when compared to the next post I quoted.

Interesting. Personally I thought 404 was fine and I assumed he just hadn't thought much about you flipping red because town wouldn't hammer you at all and scum wouldn't hammer you if you were scum, so I didn't read much into the policy lynch idea, even if it was questionable. But if that was the case then I guess he would have just said that rather than talking about the policy lynch in 412 and 421? I definitely want to hear Oxy's explanation for this now.

I have been reading about drixx's wagon and it really bothers me that nobody considered wagoning NSG for pressure.
She has been catching up for about four days at that time, has rather low content posts and been on site doing other things.

Drixx's last pair of posts at the time were pretty questionable (and still are). I think he's acted scummier than NSG, and has been in the game for longer, so I don't see the problem with the choice. And at this point I feel like any credible threat is almost completely gone after all the discussion.

Also I don't remember why I was townleaning ruru earlier. I think she's now trying too hard to scumread skitter, a la 632 and 626.

VOTE: ruru

I guess that's one reason to vote on someone...

[Scioness Sajj]

Sajj, what do you look for when you scumhunt? If this question is too direct, can you just explain what a "scummy town read" (i.e. your read on ruru) means?

Also why aren't you voting for nsg? A wagon's gotta start somewhere.

I'm not voting for NSG because I think it is too late to make that wagon now, solely on activity reasons. We have four days left and people (me included) will be less present because of holidays. Wagon on somebody to gain information right now will only create chaos. I doubt that even if NSG got here and posted more content any of it would be incriminating enough for me or anybody to feel good about lynching her - she is null for me for lack of information and I think she is good player and if she was scum she wouldn’t scum claim or just slip because of a wagon like that.
Wagoning NSG day 2? sure. Wagoning her now? Unnecessary distraction that may get us into last minute lynch this day phase.

Scummy townie in context of Ruru - I believe what makes her look scummy is her experience playing slightly different mafia games before. E.g. in games with shorter days lurking can be a scumtell. I think her focus on lurkers comes from prev experience, not her having scum motivation. Her saying that she would vote me because of not answering questions fits the bill. I think not answering questions can be more of a scum tell in shorter games then it can be here. She goes with those things because that’s how she knows how to play mafia, it just doesn’t translate into this kind of game well.
Things like that stand out and don’t fit in how I understand the game but I don’t think she is doing them because she has scum motivation to play like that. She’s just in the process of learning/adjusting.

Scumhunting - I guess you can sum it up as consistency in a playstyle being a towntell. I’m asking ‘why’ questions a lot because it gives me an idea what people were thinking when they said what they said. That way I can find patterns of behaviour in their playstyle. When somebody is playing scum they have to worry to be seen as town and finding scummy enough people to mislynch. Scum trying to appear townie will have to go against appearing townie to get people lynched. If you are playing town you worry about finding scum way more more than being mislynched.

[Scioness Sajj]

In post 682, Scioness Sajj wrote:
I have been reading about drixx's wagon and it really bothers me that nobody considered wagoning NSG for pressure.
She has been catching up for about four days at that time, has rather low content posts and been on site doing other things.


Drixx's last pair of posts at the time were pretty questionable (and still are). I think he's acted scummier than NSG, and has been in the game for longer, so I don't see the problem with the choice. And at this point I feel like any credible threat is almost completely gone after all the discussion.

Yes, he did. But what would he gain from making few suspicous posts and disappearing? Do you think things he has posted are scumtells or slips? What in game reasons did he have to lurk?
I see the wagon being build from two parts - for pressure and to lynch.
Ofrhz and skitter voted him becuase they wanted to hear answers to things they didn't understand, that makes perfect sense to me. You and Oxy voted with what looks like intention to lynch. And problems start here. Intention to lynch on a low info wagon makes me think of intention of a mislynch. You both have jumped on 'we demand answers!' wagon with 'he's scummy enough to die!' reasoning with added argument 'but nobody is stupid enough to hammer'.
It bothers me. I need to check who said what and how it played out again.

[Assemblerotws]

Vote Count 1.10

Not Voting [4]:

northsidegal, skitter30, Scioness Sajj, Oxy

Oxy [2]:

eth0s, Drixx

Drixx [1]:

ruru

Scioness Sajj [1]:

pinturicchio

ruru [1]:

ofrhz

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2018-04-05 09:00:00) on

April 5, 2018

.

Mod notes: Due to the holidays and the multiple requests, deadline has been extended by two days.

[Scioness Sajj]

In post 692, ofrhz wrote:
Also I don't remember why I was townleaning ruru earlier. I think she's now trying too hard to scumread skitter, a la 632 and 626.

VOTE: ruru


I guess that's one reason to vote on someone...

Do you understand why ofrhz is scumreading you? Do you agree?

[ruru]

Scummy townie in context of Ruru - I believe what makes her look scummy is her experience playing slightly different mafia games before. E.g. in games with shorter days lurking can be a scumtell.

For the record this is my first forum mafia game. I'd only read through the games on another forum; I never signed because I found the strength and aggression of the players there intimidating. The days were shorter there among other things so I did feel some culture shock.

In post 682, Scioness Sajj wrote:
I have been reading about drixx's wagon and it really bothers me that nobody considered wagoning NSG for pressure.
She has been catching up for about four days at that time, has rather low content posts and been on site doing other things.


Drixx's last pair of posts at the time were pretty questionable (and still are). I think he's acted scummier than NSG, and has been in the game for longer, so I don't see the problem with the choice. And at this point I feel like any credible threat is almost completely gone after all the discussion.

Yes, he did. But what would he gain from making few suspicous posts and disappearing? Do you think things he has posted are scumtells or slips? What in game reasons did he have to lurk?

His posts seemed intended to generate confusion and the 2nd post felt like he was intentionally not clarifying. I think that's more scummy than towny especially when we're starting to approach end of day, there were multiple lurkers, and it seems like there's a decent chance we'll be scrambling at the last minute to agree on a day 1 lynch.

I feel like it's not nearly scummy enough to get scum!Drixx lynched regardless, plus since it's an isolated couple posts rather than trolling throughout the thread, he can always say it was a reaction test whether or not that was his motivation. (eth0s also did a reaction test that I scumread while he was posting less; the difference is that his didn't actively generate confusion which makes it not scummy to me in retrospect.) So yes, I think scum!Drixx has something to gain from it, and town has something to gain by Drixx explaining himself, regardless of his alignment.

I see the wagon being build from two parts - for pressure and to lynch.
Ofrhz and skitter voted him becuase they wanted to hear answers to things they didn't understand, that makes perfect sense to me. You and Oxy voted with what looks like intention to lynch. And problems start here. Intention to lynch on a low info wagon makes me think of intention of a mislynch. You both have jumped on 'we demand answers!' wagon with 'he's scummy enough to die!' reasoning with added argument 'but nobody is stupid enough to hammer'.
It bothers me. I need to check who said what and how it played out again.

The play that could have been made, but wasn't, depends on players collectively bluffing without revealing that they are bluffing.

In post 692, ofrhz wrote:
Also I don't remember why I was townleaning ruru earlier. I think she's now trying too hard to scumread skitter, a la 632 and 626.

VOTE: ruru


I guess that's one reason to vote on someone...

Do you understand why ofrhz is scumreading you? Do you agree?

No, I don't understand why he's scumreading me.