Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

UNVOTE:

I don't want him to self-hammer

[GuiltyLion]

If 72 is scum, he has played this game very poorly imo

This is why we need to spend more time on UNOwen, Ydrasse, Mini, and myself. 72 strikes me as a pretty capable player, I don't think he instahammers unless there's a benefit to him. Like I said, I think the worst case scenario is his partner is Ydrasse or UNOwen and set to have a really good chance to endgame, in which case we need to do as much as we can to give ourselves a chance at solving them. I myself don't want to be an easy mislynch for scum here

[DoctorPepper]

I won't be voting for 72 now for fear of a self hammer but know my vote is just there in spirit

[DoctorPepper]

Hmm, why would I have been the likely NK last night? If anything, scum didn't need to push for my lynch because I was already going to make it a choice anyway between myself and 72.

I don't think I should be conf town and nothing has happened to indicate that.

[DoctorPepper]

No death N1 has 5 possibilities:
1. Mafia was not able to submit a factional kill (indicating someone who may have forgotten about the game or site-flaked)
2. Doctor blocks the night kill
3. Jailkeeper blocks the night kill by correctly targetting the Night Kill
4. Jailkeeper blocks the night kill by correctly targetting the Mafia assigned to do the NK.
5. Mafia submits no kill on purpose

I don't want to go in assuming it's 2-4 when 1 could be likely. I also think that while 5 is unlikely for a newbie, I would not put it past any of you to be that bold at Day 2

[DoctorPepper]

I feel like GL wouldn't be partnered with 72.

I would look at him on the off chance that 72 flips green, but he has a point, it's poor play to coordinate a quickhammer for the sake of a bus.

[MiniMegabyte]

I will catch up a bit later just a bit busy atm

[ItalianoVD]

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

[ItalianoVD]

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

[WaltertheDunce10]

I do not.
I believe 72 is scum and I need to reevaluate who the other one could be since jt is dead.

[Ydrasse]

@italiano:

Spoiler:

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

how is saying that it's self preservation false? fmpov, scum!72 sees that one of the wagons (that he was first upon) is dying out, leaving him competing with another one. one of the safety options is gone and he has to make sure that he as scum is not lynched, so he throws down a hammer onto jt and claims it's an accident so that things cannot be turned back onto him.

especially given the fact that, like i said, dp at that point was adamant about it being either dp or 72. a scum!72 realizes that in the event that it's between him and dp, and if dp goes down first there's a high chance the town focuses in on him the next day. that, or he gets voted off that day (meaning day 1) outright. so instead, it's better to turn the hammer onto someone outside of those two so he doesn't have to continue dealing with the pressure of dp's tunneling and insistence it's between them two. it's another option that, from his pov, could present greater odds of getting through the day.

and which part didn't i mention then? do you mean why didn't i mention my misgivings when it came to dp, or the fact that i thought his content had improved? the former i feel can be seen in that my vote was STILL on dp for a reason — he had gotten townier, but it isn't outside a realm of possibility that he was still scum to me given the fact of where his suspicions rested. a lot of this wasn't mentioned because i was gone from the time after i had asked dp some stuff and when 72 was hammered, and the hammer itself made me reconsider a lot of things at eod.

Spoiler:

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

1) i said what the hell because i came back to 72 claiming that he hadn't seen the vote on dp at all. it was a mess to come back to, lmfao.

2) yes. i voted for him when i thought he was scummy, and my vote stayed there after because despite improvements i still thought there was a chance dp could be scum.

3) yeah, that's fair, which is why my vote is on 72 as it is. in context with everything else it doesn't seem like it was an accidental vote given how much 72 benefited from it in that moment, but i have to consider all the possibilities.

4) ii still have some suspicions that are lingering in that pool i presented. i haven't gotten around to iso'ing either of you yet. i'm going to do it sometime during this day. you're not as high on my scumread list though, after that fiasco in d1.

for owen i have to reread, because i don't remember him ever making a push on me and i don't understand why he's saying that i'm one of two required partners for 72, and instead saying that you brought up a good point and then not offering his own opinions from the reread that he did. his response to guiltylion in 695 seems deflective of the pressure put onto him imo without giving reasons.

5) like i said, the 72 hammer made me rethink a lot of things pretty quickly.

-

what about you? i know you posted a reads list in 541, but i assume that's changed at this point?

[72offsuit]

Lol, these worried about self hammer posts r so forced.

[72offsuit]

Huh? I see a lot has happened. I was expecting 72 to be the one getting the votes. I was certain Walter was gonna vote for him since he had suspicions of him earlier. Voting for TTJT was kind of weird for me. And after 72’s move onto TTJT I have to assume JT is town because if 72 is scum it would be extremely dumb to bus your partner when you didn’t have to. Unless neither of them are scum. I don’t know what to think now. I wish it was as easy and JT flips scum, but if not I don’t see why we shouldn’t/wouldn’t vote for 72 on Day 2. That’s who I expected to go anyway. Ehh.

Why were you expecting mpre votes on me?

[72offsuit]

Suddenly TTJT's top scumreads are the top 2 wagons.
Yeah nah.

VOTE: TTJT

You can’t tell me that you weren’t aware of the vote count. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

I can say that and that's what happened.

[72offsuit]

Lol. Nice so im scum either way. Fits nicely with your tunnel

At best you’re bad townie, so either way it’s not a help to the town.

What point are you trying to make in this post?

[72offsuit]

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

What incentive does !ScumMe have to get out of that 1v1?

[72offsuit]

I couldve ridden that 1v1 and just let the TtJT lynch go ahead

[DoctorPepper]

Lol, these worried about self hammer posts r so forced.

Okay.

VOTE: 72

[GuiltyLion]

I don't have a ton of time rn and I'm still thinking, but I do want to say in case 72 selfhammers I think UNOwen is more likely scum than Ydrasse, based on their initial posts today and some reading I did overnight. Will explain in more detail later assuming there's no self-vote

[72offsuit]

Thus my questik. For you DrPepper was if you ever use scummy tactics to avoid being lynched as town. If 72 is town him hammering me was an example of it.

It wasnt an intentional play.

[Micc]

Votecount 2.01

72offsuit (4) -

WaltertheDunce10, Ydrasse, ItalianoVD, DoctorPepper

Not Voting (4) -

MiniMegabyte, UNOwen, 72offsuit, GuiltyLion

With 8 players alive it takes 5 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2020-07-07 13:05:00).

[Micc]

This afternoon Site Administration and List Moderators announced a new rule giving Game Moderators direction to replace the word "lynch" in their games.

I have updated all my posts for this game to use the word "eliminate" instead. I will not be policing the use of the word "lynch" by players in this game, but my hope is that you will join me in working to remove this racially charged word from naming a core mechanic of mafia games. Finally, I ask that you please keep detailed discussion of this rule to the announcement thread and preserve this thread for its purpose of playing a game of Mafia.

[72offsuit]

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

if jt is scum i don't know what motivation a scum 72 has to hammer his partner though or even switch wagons like that when he's under a lot of scrutiny because dp is going to still go after him the next day.

If JT isn't trolling then the partner is probably GuiltyLion.

IMO both these twilight shades were ugly

I would like both of you to explain why exactly you think scum!GL and scum!72 have any kind of need to coordinate a quickhammer there. I know it may not mean much coming from me, but I believe scum quickhammers on D1 are tremendously bad play unless you're absolutely sure you've got the PR (even then, it's a gamble that can easily sink you), and I really don't see how you think TTJT was such an urgent need to remove that our hypothetical team would need to trash my good standing as well as 72's in order to secure THAT specific D1 mislynch.

i feel that dp had a lot more to lose from thunderdoming it out with 72 in this situation and i think that 72's response of "oh we can work this out you might not be scum" feels scummier than dp's conviction that 72 is scum. i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

I’m wondering when you felt this because you voted for DoctorPepper. Whether it was before or after you voted for him doesn’t change anything.

This is also a really good question that I want Ydrasse to answer.

VOTE: 72offsuit

You say that you believe scum quickhammers on D1 are tremendously bad play.

Then why do you attribute my hammer as a scum move rather than the mistake that it was?

[DoctorPepper]

You do realize how easy it is to say "Oh no I made a mistake, my bad" as scum right?

Plus at best you're uncooperative town

[72offsuit]

Yes, i do realise how easy it is to say that, thats why im not surprised ive got 4 votes on myself.

In no way have i been uncooperative.