Mafiascum.net

In post 699, Raya36 wrote:Not sure I know THE reason but I can see possible ways to read her play as scummy. Don't think I agree though.

If you see my play as scummy, why do you not agree with the vote on me? Contradiction.

@: Two questions.

a) In #511, who does the "you" in the first line refer to?
b) Have there been any updates to your Nosferatu read since #278?

In post 700, shellyc wrote:

In post 699, Raya36 wrote:Not sure I know THE reason but I can see possible ways to read her play as scummy. Don't think I agree though.

If you see my play as scummy, why do you not agree with the vote on me? Contradiction.

I don't think your play is scummy but I see how it could be read as scummy.

In post 702, Raya36 wrote:I don't think your play is scummy but I see how it could be read as scummy.

are you going to keep that to yourself or explain why you think I might look scummy to others

In post 649, shellyc wrote:

In post 648, Looker wrote:UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

In post 653, shellyc wrote:

In post 652, geraintm wrote:huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

This makes no sense and could be read as you trying to form a case out of nothing. Or maybe you were having trouble as scum to find something to scumread/comment on. It's also much more difficult for scum to look at someone who is town and make up reasons for them to be scummy. This could be read as grasping at straws.

A vote on Italiano is kind of opportunistic if they're town.

In post 691, shellyc wrote:

In post 690, Tayl0r Swift wrote:i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

CFJ's posting is confusing, but confident and I think I see a town mindset

I'm fine if you want to park your vote on me. My pure town energy will shine through.

The cfj part is quite surface level

In post 704, Raya36 wrote:

In post 649, shellyc wrote:

In post 648, Looker wrote:UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

In post 653, shellyc wrote:

In post 652, geraintm wrote:huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

This makes no sense and could be read as you trying to form a case out of nothing. Or maybe you were having trouble as scum to find something to scumread/comment on. It's also much more difficult for scum to look at someone who is town and make up reasons for them to be scummy. This could be read as grasping at straws.

A vote on Italiano is kind of opportunistic if they're town.

In post 691, shellyc wrote:

In post 690, Tayl0r Swift wrote:i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

CFJ's posting is confusing, but confident and I think I see a town mindset

I'm fine if you want to park your vote on me. My pure town energy will shine through.

The cfj part is quite surface level

You say you don't think my play is scummy, but then you proceed to make this case on me. Yet you are still regarding my play as "not scummy". Is this TMI from scum knowing I'm actually town?

Nope. You're newbtown from my understanding. The first part I said //could// be ready as you forming a case out of nothing. What I really think it is is newbtown trying to find something to comment on. It's also easy to understand why newbtown would join an opportunistic wagon.

In post 701, callforjudgement wrote:@

Walter

: Two questions.

a) In #511, who does the "you" in the first line refer to?
b) Have there been any updates to your Nosferatu read since #278?

That is referring to Frog,
I thin nos has been a bit more towny since then, but still in the nai part.

In post 694, geraintm wrote:Nosferatu - your posts stink.
you tag raya as scummy - twive, and don't go anywhere with that thought.
random vote on the banana slot
random vote on shelly

how bored are you? are you just randomly interacting with this game? I see no content from you at all. be better

all you do is beg for content that you are unable to provide

almost every post you make is just "i dont get it", "why is this happening", "whats going on"

where do you have the moral high ground to even ask this of me?

I provide more value to the town than you literally trolling and providing dumb content for people to react to and get reads off of you literally just ask questions and do nothing

Yep, I know i have double standards and should post better content, but that isn't going to stop me going ? When I see people make posts with little or jo logic behind them.
My problem will be paralysis, I find it very hard to get a strong enough read on someone to vote for them being scum. But when I do I will say exactly why. None of this "I'm voting x but you can't ask me why" reasons some people are giving

I will note you haven't actually explained your votes, just deflected back to me

we've already established why i """"deflected"""" but ill bite since i dont have that many votes to explain anyway

In post 7, Nosferatu wrote:there can only be one
VOTE: rcenigma

rvs

In post 238, Nosferatu wrote:VOTE: walter

223 is a little bit overzealous to me, didnt like the way he gushed over that post read as buddying to me

In post 334, Nosferatu wrote: VOTE: nosferatu

frustration

In post 368, Nosferatu wrote:you know what i dont think someone with an avatar such as urself would engage in this kind of pro-town behavior

VOTE: cfg

cfg was really weird around my wagon, doesn't read as someone trying to sort me, just someone informed trying to eek some townpoints out of a lynch

In post 575, Nosferatu wrote:VOTE: bananacucho

low tier reaction baiting with nm

In post 665, Nosferatu wrote:UNVOTE: shellyc

banana replaced out

In post 681, Tayl0r Swift wrote:also worth noting that italiano is taking this opportunity of pressure on him and plausible counterwagon and NOT being opportunistic.

This statement really got me thinking. If you haven't already, I recommend reading Italiano and Walter in double ISO, following how they interact with each other.

The first wagon on Walter starts at #238 by Nosferatu. Italiano's next post, #266, is denouncing it. (At the time, I assumed that this was Italiano reading the situation the same way I was, and townread Italiano for it. I think I was wrong, though.)

Italiano had previously implied a townread or at least "no reason to think scum" read on Nosferatu (#234).
Walter attacked Nosferatu around the time Nosferatu voted Walter (#249, #257, #278).
Soon after, Italiano was attacking Nosferatu too (#281, vote in #294).

The Nosferatu wagon sits at four votes for a while. Then I derail it, based primarily on a gut read (#367).
Italiano places a (what is to me) surprising scumread on me in #381 and vote in #382. (This is the third vote, after RCEnigma and Nosferatu.)
Walter does not join this wagon (although he does ask lots of questions about it, that's natural when it's the largest wagon).
Eventually Walter calls me "70% certainty" of town (#614); this is technically a mild scumread (assuming a 10:3 setup, a hypothetically town Walter would think a perfectly null read was 75% likely to be town.)

The CFJ wagon sits at four votes for a while.
Then it starts shrinking, as Tayl0r moves to Walter (#634); that wagon's now the same size as mine (N_M voted Walter in #600).
Italiano reacts surprisingly strongly to this (#655), in effect complaining that the wagons should be on me and/or Nosferatu.
Italiano then defends Walter by attacking the wagon (#674, #675).

Walter earlier agreed with me that #655 is scummy (#659), but doesn't vote for Italiano.
As Tayl0r pointed out, there is notable pressure on Italiano but he has no interest at all in the counterwagon on Walter (instead, he's primarily been attacking me).

What I get out of all this is that Italiano is focused quite heavily on defending Walter. Whenever there's a wagon on Walter, Italiano votes the counterwagon (except that with this most recent wagon, the counterwagon to Walter is Italiano himself, and his response is to complain that people aren't on the wagons that previously collapsed!). Basically every time anyone scumreads Walter, Italiano attacks the (but Italiano has only twice actually called Walter town, placing him top of a townread list in #381, without explanation; and giving a gut townread in #687). The attacks tend to be with weak or no reasoning, too (e.g. #674 attacks a read as "sheeping Not_Mafia", and you can't really sheep someone who never explains).

I think the most plausible explanations for all this are:
a) Italiano and Walter are scum together.
b) Italiano is scum (with Walter town), and wants everyone to think that Walter is scum alongside him, in the hope that we end up voting out Walter and Italiano can end up being vindicated by the townflip.

In either case, though, Italiano ends up as being scum. Unless someone can find meta evidence otherwise, I don't think it makes sense for a hypothetically town Italiano to defend Walter hard based only on a gut read.

I do tend to be a person who is miselimed cfj. I call bullshit on this statement, I think that all 3 wagons you, Italiano and I are somewhat town.
I should point out that 650 was not enough of a scum read and a vote. I did not think of that number to be associated with the actual percentage, just one that you have a higher chance of flipping town.

In post 713, callforjudgement wrote:

In post 681, Tayl0r Swift wrote:also worth noting that italiano is taking this opportunity of pressure on him and plausible counterwagon and NOT being opportunistic.

This statement really got me thinking. If you haven't already, I recommend reading Italiano and Walter in double ISO, following how they interact with each other.

The first wagon on Walter starts at #238 by Nosferatu. Italiano's next post, #266, is denouncing it. (At the time, I assumed that this was Italiano reading the situation the same way I was, and townread Italiano for it. I think I was wrong, though.)

Italiano had previously implied a townread or at least "no reason to think scum" read on Nosferatu (#234).
Walter attacked Nosferatu around the time Nosferatu voted Walter (#249, #257, #278).
Soon after, Italiano was attacking Nosferatu too (#281, vote in #294).

The Nosferatu wagon sits at four votes for a while. Then I derail it, based primarily on a gut read (#367).
Italiano places a (what is to me) surprising scumread on me in #381 and vote in #382. (This is the third vote, after RCEnigma and Nosferatu.)
Walter does not join this wagon (although he does ask lots of questions about it, that's natural when it's the largest wagon).
Eventually Walter calls me "70% certainty" of town (#614); this is technically a mild scumread (assuming a 10:3 setup, a hypothetically town Walter would think a perfectly null read was 75% likely to be town.)

The CFJ wagon sits at four votes for a while.
Then it starts shrinking, as Tayl0r moves to Walter (#634); that wagon's now the same size as mine (N_M voted Walter in #600).
Italiano reacts surprisingly strongly to this (#655), in effect complaining that the wagons should be on me and/or Nosferatu.
Italiano then defends Walter by attacking the wagon (#674, #675).

Walter earlier agreed with me that #655 is scummy (#659), but doesn't vote for Italiano.
As Tayl0r pointed out, there is notable pressure on Italiano but he has no interest at all in the counterwagon on Walter (instead, he's primarily been attacking me).

---

What I get out of all this is that Italiano is focused quite heavily on defending Walter. Whenever there's a wagon on Walter, Italiano votes the counterwagon (except that with this most recent wagon, the counterwagon to Walter is Italiano himself, and his response is to complain that people aren't on the wagons that previously collapsed!). Basically every time anyone scumreads Walter, Italiano attacks the

read

(but Italiano has only twice actually called Walter town, placing him top of a townread list in #381, without explanation; and giving a gut townread in #687). The attacks tend to be with weak or no reasoning, too (e.g. #674 attacks a read as "sheeping Not_Mafia", and you can't really sheep someone who never explains).

I think the most plausible explanations for all this are:
a) Italiano and Walter are scum together.
b) Italiano is scum (with Walter town), and wants everyone to think that Walter is scum alongside him, in the hope that we end up voting out Walter and Italiano can end up being vindicated by the townflip.

In either case, though, Italiano ends up as being scum. Unless someone can find meta evidence otherwise, I don't think it makes sense for a hypothetically town Italiano to defend Walter

this

hard based only on a gut read.

this is a good post. i think there is a third possible explanation though, which is why i moved my vote away from walter. i dont think im going to vote for walter or italiano today, but will expect more from them on subsequent days.

In post 694, geraintm wrote:

In post 679, Tayl0r Swift wrote: oof yeah i really wanna lynch in cfj, shelly, enigma, or walter. like really really. they cant all be scum but this is some serious opportunism, id be surprised if there arent at least 2 scum in there maybe even all three if walter is scum.

don't like posts like this. caling out a third of the game and saying there is likely to be a scum in there...well duh. it feels like a post they can circle back later to to say "look, I always thought they were scum"

i think having a PoE of 3-4 people at this stage is pretty good actually. and im not saying i think theres one scum in this group. im saying i think this is where we find most if not all of the scum and flipping here will solve the game.

@callforjudgment: You are right, at the time I made my comment I thought you were still the leading wagon because I initially missed Taylor and RCEnigma jumping off of you. My apologies on that; with that said: There were two changes to the game state that your wagon was involved in.

(1) Nosferatu said the game was boring and for someone to do something. That’s when the counterwagon to your wagon was created (Banana)
(2) You said you didn’t like the game state and wanted something done about it. That’s when your wagon gets dissolved. (Walter / myself)

You the leading wagon and were at L-2.

1) RCEnigma started it
2) Nosferatu jumped on
3) SJReaver jumped on
4) I jumped on
5) Taylor jumped on

Then 573 happened, and Banana became the counterwagon. In 631 you said you didn’t like the gamestate and wanted something to be done about it. At the time of that post you were still the leading wagon. Then your wagon dissolved and went back to Walter and then to myself.

There is a problem with all this and the #1 problem is that you are pretty universally scumread. Frogsterking scumreads your slot, RCEnigma scumreads your slot, Taylor scumreads your slot, Raya scumreads your slot and yet none of them are voting for you.

then I’d surmise your two partners are in that group or one is in that group and the other has distanced themselves from you completely.

then you’d be an easy target for scum to latch onto given your universal scumread, which is why I find it hard to believe that your wagon would dissolve if it was scum driven.

In post 715, Tayl0r Swift wrote:

In post 713, callforjudgement wrote:

In post 681, Tayl0r Swift wrote:also worth noting that italiano is taking this opportunity of pressure on him and plausible counterwagon and NOT being opportunistic.

This statement really got me thinking. If you haven't already, I recommend reading Italiano and Walter in double ISO, following how they interact with each other.

The first wagon on Walter starts at #238 by Nosferatu. Italiano's next post, #266, is denouncing it. (At the time, I assumed that this was Italiano reading the situation the same way I was, and townread Italiano for it. I think I was wrong, though.)

Italiano had previously implied a townread or at least "no reason to think scum" read on Nosferatu (#234).
Walter attacked Nosferatu around the time Nosferatu voted Walter (#249, #257, #278).
Soon after, Italiano was attacking Nosferatu too (#281, vote in #294).

The Nosferatu wagon sits at four votes for a while. Then I derail it, based primarily on a gut read (#367).
Italiano places a (what is to me) surprising scumread on me in #381 and vote in #382. (This is the third vote, after RCEnigma and Nosferatu.)
Walter does not join this wagon (although he does ask lots of questions about it, that's natural when it's the largest wagon).
Eventually Walter calls me "70% certainty" of town (#614); this is technically a mild scumread (assuming a 10:3 setup, a hypothetically town Walter would think a perfectly null read was 75% likely to be town.)

The CFJ wagon sits at four votes for a while.
Then it starts shrinking, as Tayl0r moves to Walter (#634); that wagon's now the same size as mine (N_M voted Walter in #600).
Italiano reacts surprisingly strongly to this (#655), in effect complaining that the wagons should be on me and/or Nosferatu.
Italiano then defends Walter by attacking the wagon (#674, #675).

Walter earlier agreed with me that #655 is scummy (#659), but doesn't vote for Italiano.
As Tayl0r pointed out, there is notable pressure on Italiano but he has no interest at all in the counterwagon on Walter (instead, he's primarily been attacking me).

---

What I get out of all this is that Italiano is focused quite heavily on defending Walter. Whenever there's a wagon on Walter, Italiano votes the counterwagon (except that with this most recent wagon, the counterwagon to Walter is Italiano himself, and his response is to complain that people aren't on the wagons that previously collapsed!). Basically every time anyone scumreads Walter, Italiano attacks the

read

(but Italiano has only twice actually called Walter town, placing him top of a townread list in #381, without explanation; and giving a gut townread in #687). The attacks tend to be with weak or no reasoning, too (e.g. #674 attacks a read as "sheeping Not_Mafia", and you can't really sheep someone who never explains).

I think the most plausible explanations for all this are:
a) Italiano and Walter are scum together.
b) Italiano is scum (with Walter town), and wants everyone to think that Walter is scum alongside him, in the hope that we end up voting out Walter and Italiano can end up being vindicated by the townflip.

In either case, though, Italiano ends up as being scum. Unless someone can find meta evidence otherwise, I don't think it makes sense for a hypothetically town Italiano to defend Walter

this

hard based only on a gut read.

this is a good post. i think there is a third possible explanation though, which is why i moved my vote away from walter. i dont think im going to vote for walter or italiano today, but will expect more from them on subsequent days.

This makes me feel good. A good post.

I agree,
That is a good point on the callout for gamestate to change.
I don't think my theory on it being a bugspray situation holds any water otherwise there would have been more vote movement recently back then compared to now.
Plus it occurred due to nos and nm not my post.

At the moment the votes are:

Italiano (3) ~ shellyc, RCEnigma, callforjudgment
Walter (2) ~ Raya, Not_Mafia
callforjudgment (2) ~ Looker, Italiano
shellyc (2) ~ Frogsterking, Taylor
Not_Mafia (1) ~ geraintm
geraintm (1) ~ Gamma
Gamma (1) ~ Walter

A lot different from the gamestate that has been for the majority of this day.

In post 715, Tayl0r Swift wrote:this is a good post

why

what is a bugspray situation?

In post 721, Nosferatu wrote:

In post 715, Tayl0r Swift wrote:this is a good post

why

it makes a lot of good connections. it isnt merely a high effort post that scum can fake, but its a post that has good analysis that scum would have a hard time and little motivation to make.

i dont really mind this wagon but i find it very sus since cfg has been gaslighting italiano for a while now and somehow has turned walter explicitly saying he thinks cfg is town into a mild scumread