mini normal 2226; who won

[Prism]

Eh, I wasn't angry at all. The point is to immediately put pressure on people to make mistakes/justify something they find difficult to.

[Datisi]

here's a vague hot take so that i don't forget - if meg/prism turn out to both be town, umlaut's scum equity skyrockets. i used to read him as "him being lazy is probably townie because i've modded for scum!him and he went at it kinda hard", but then there was a game where he was a lazy scumfuck because the town was being stupid and his teammates were carrying. and he said it himself that scum!him doesn't effort too much if the circumstances don't call for it. so uh, keep this in mind i guess.

[Prism]

It also might be worth noting that as scum I would have 100% have already read the entire game before replace-in. I do not post without knowing exactly what is going on and why.

[Aristeia]

Let's talk about 610 then.


I don't believe it's particularly difficult for a player to post something like:



"I'm willing to be mis-elimmed, please give me some time to post.

There's 6 days left in the game so let's use them all.

It's good to do this even if I'm scum because I'll give you associatives."



This is a kind of LAMIST posting at death's door that is designed to be quite reasonable.

Why shouldn't the town use every day possible?

Why shouldn't we give more time for new opinions to change?

I find myself agreeing with everything she says.

And yet;

Why would a scum player not post something equivalent to try to slow down their own wagon?

Their goal is survival, their enemy is momentum. They want the wagon to slow, atrophy with time and disinterest, people to townread them and go away.

Towns can quickly lose interest on a long day one, wagons fall away and move from time to time with no reason at all.

I haven't seen anything in this post that doesn't make sense for scum!her to do but you've decided off this post alone that she shouldn't even be on the table.

In a game that you've just replaced into and not even read.

It doesn't feel like Prism walking in blind to a mafia game with open eyes to me.

[Prism]

FWIW I'm still chewing on what this means for Aristia but this is an impressive performance if it is scum. The meta is off but not obviously malicious.

[Aristeia]

It also might be worth noting that as scum I would have 100% have already read the entire game before replace-in. I do not post without knowing exactly what is going on and why.

This is just self!meta.

I think scum you relishes the oppurtunity to crush towns.

The worse the starting position the more delicious the turnaround.

Also with T3 threatening intent to hammer and Meg being like all "you can kill me it's not a problem" there doesn't really exist the premium of time for you to take a full re-read.

You have to make a move that hits the game state hard like a meteor in order to take thread control, reshape the narrative and get things moving for your side again.

[Prism]

The behavior/approach itself is what I found town even if there's scum incentive. I would not townread more experienced players for the same behavior.

I will grab you backlinks of me playing exactly this way as town if you insist.

[T3]

intent to haer meg

[Datisi]

prism, did you miss my 694 or am i blind?

[MathBlade]

Datisi => I don't think you post 512 as scum here. This shows an attentiveness to vote counts that you'd naturally have to keep up as scum.

there is a very specific reason i posted that, i was gonna wait until flubber reacted but he got replaced and prism did react so

there is a tell that i call "the iconeum tell" bc he taught it to me, the idea is that if you have two ~scummy wagons, and the two wagonees are playing around each other awkwardly, and/or are avoiding each other like the plague, they're more likely to be scum/scum wagons. (i used this in a recent c9++)

flubber's "lol why are we wagoning the v/la" struck me as possibly that, because obviously scum!flubber doesn't wanna die, but also doesn't wanna vote his buddy counterwagon. but i had to wait for meg. and once meg was like "flubber is scummy", *no vote*, and after saying they like having a vote on someone at all times? yeah it did no good things to that read

flubber dud end up voting meg, but ehhh his vote was... awkward at best. and prism entering with screaming about how dare we wagon meg, and immediately trying to discredit me based on ~tone~

will properly read the rest later, i skimmed a bit and this from math caught my eye so wanted to elaborate

Having been scum many,many, many times I think that’s a load of hot shit. A good/decent scum does not do the things you’re talking about there. All that Ico tell is is whether a player happens to be a newbie or not. New town players tend to vote their cross wagon awkwardly (a fact I have exploited many times). A newbie Town knows their town and so dying is bad so they vote their cross wagon because maybe their scum. A newbie scum will tend to provide some sort of content reason to look good. It gets difficult to get newbie scum to post at all. I am glad you did well in that C9 but that’s probably more of a coincidence than an outright tell.

Flubber’s vote on Meg is awkward and that’s a pretty good reason this is not SvS, and I am pretty sure Prism is town here. Of the two I think Meg has the best chance of flipping scum here. No one really championed the Flubber wagon so it’s pretty dead to me. Reviving it now is kinda sketch as if no one was willing to stand up for it in the past then there’s probably a reason.

[Prism]

It also might be worth noting that as scum I would have 100% have already read the entire game before replace-in. I do not post without knowing exactly what is going on and why.

This is just self!meta.

I think scum you relishes the oppurtunity to crush towns.

The worse the starting position the more delicious the turnaround.

Also with T3 threatening intent to hammer and Meg being like all "you can kill me it's not a problem" there doesn't really exist the premium of time for you to take a full re-read.

You have to make a move that hits the game state hard like a meteor in order to take thread control, reshape the narrative and get things moving for your side again.

Okay. There is nothing for me to respond here to as town. I can backlink excerpts from Perpetual, Forest Fire, and Trust Tell later when I am not on my phone, but I suspect this will not be resolved until I am flipped one way or another.

[Aristeia]

The behavior/approach itself is what I found town even if there's scum incentive. I would not townread more experienced players for the same behavior.

I will grab you backlinks of me playing exactly this way as town if you insist.

If you had been playing all along and had context/progression on her slot I would agree that it absolutely makes sense for you to townread her here.

However you are replacing in cold.

The replacement was announced just a few minutes prior.

It's impossible for you to actually have done the work necessary and I don't think Town!You does a derail with not even doing the work because town!you is a perfectionist at these games to the point of unhealthy obssession.

[Prism]

prism, did you miss my 694 or am i blind?

I am on a phone and can make one post at a time, give me a bit and I'll set up my laptop and actually start reading the game again.

[Datisi]

No one really championed the Flubber wagon so it’s pretty dead to me.

why is this an indication that the wagon is on a townie?

[T3]

Meg is scummy af now that I see what ari is doing.

[T3]

Or I agree with ari's case.

[Datisi]

also, uh, you talk about "good scum wouldn't do that", and maybe (maybe!) that's true, but i haven't seen proof that either flubber or meg are exceptionally good at scum (no offense, i'm shit at scum too). so i don't see how that invalidates what i said?

and besides, literally all i said was "if the two leading wagons aren't voting each other, they're more likely to both be scum", why is this suddenly someting that "decent scum" doesn't do?

[MathBlade]

In your theory, do you think that her push on me was supposed to work?

Or are you saying that she scum read me to get a town read, to then pivot to someone else?

Prism is very good at scum so yes

So no? Prism wouldn’t try such low hanging fruit with me right here. Prism and I butt heads rather quickly. I don’t think Prism goes out of their way to remind me how much sometimes Prism annoys me. Once I am wound up I can get a bit stuck (working on it). Prism would wind me up on someone specific and Townie. I don’t see the strategy here. Like with a replacement like Prism they’d know I would watch them like a hawk.

[Aristeia]

Okay. There is nothing for me to respond here to as town. I can backlink excerpts from Perpetual, Forest Fire, and Trust Tell later when I am not on my phone, but I suspect this will not be resolved until I am flipped one way or another.

I don't see how your play from games where you are town would serve as a counterfactual for what I'm saying about scum!you's play in a game state where your scum partner is in imminent danger.

A proper counter-example would be scum!you replacing into a game where a partner is about to get eliminated on d1 with hammer intent already on the table and your slot having voted the player in question in an awkward way.

That's a fairly narrow condition set so I kind of doubt you would have a relevant example to cite.

I don't expect you to come up with a counter example, it would be unfair of me to put that burden on you.

I am simply laying out the relevant reasons for scum!you not to do a re-read but be forced to immediately enter thread and fight. I am doing this to counter your self!meta that scum!you would not come in cold.

[MathBlade]

No one really championed the Flubber wagon so it’s pretty dead to me.

why is this an indication that the wagon is on a townie?

If no one wants to brag the wagon is theirs then it’s almost certainly on town.

Assume the opposite and Prism is scum:
This means any scum voter doesn’t want credit for a bus.
This means any town voter isn’t confident enough in their scumread to want credit but just has their vote lurking there.

Does that sound like a scum flip to you?

[Aristeia]

Assume the opposite and Prism is scum:
This means any scum voter doesn’t want credit for a bus.
This means any town voter isn’t confident enough in their scumread to want credit but just has their vote lurking there.

If Prism/Meg are both scum then nobody would want to be credited with a Prism wagon because Meg flips red here and whoever is pushing Prism altwagon looks shady as long as Prism is assumed to be the scum counterwagon.

[Datisi]

This means any scum voter doesn’t want credit for a bus.

this is a horrible assumption that scum only ever votes a partner with the intent of driving them into the ground, and that's not the case. there are *definitely* cases where scum sees a wagon building on their partner, jumps on (so that if the wagon goes through, they get some cred), but when it comes to vocally supporting the wagon, they shut the fuck up because they're silently praying the wagon goes away.

and re no townies being confident enough in their read... i don't see how that is relevant to the wagonee's alignment?

[Aristeia]

Look at this game state if Flubber/Meg/RandomThird scum is the solve.


Meg doesn't want to push Flubber because she thinks she messed up and doesn't want to push her teammate to die instead, she feels like it's ok for her to go down day one and wishes her team luck while posting generally lamisty/stalling items in the thread.

Flubber reluctantly votes Meg and goes VLA 14 days lol?

RandoThirdScum could be anywhere.

Now which scum in this game state would want their vote on Flubber?

RandoThirdScum doesn't want to vote Flubber, Meg has already decided its ok for her to die, if she flips the counterwagon is the first place the town will look and nobody wants to be "leading that"

Flubber isn't going to vote himself.

Meg has decided she's the weakest link and a newb and ok to go down on D1.

[Prism]

i can see my tone seeming like that, but that is just How I Talk and if this game turns into me having to dig ten billion meta examples of me Talking Like That i am gonna scream. though i'm not sure how you remembering

a more paranoid datisi makes you ease up on that read?

and sorry, what question was i avoiding there?

The more paranoid/offset Datisi was my original "This post to MathBlade is weird?" The paranoid/offset Datisi kicks in the opposite direction when he is more concerned about my alignment/SvS wagons than afraid of me.

Question was about Meg, which I wanted you to rehash to me specifically even though at this point I've kind of shown my hand.

[Prism]

also, uh, you talk about "good scum wouldn't do that", and maybe (maybe!) that's true, but i haven't seen proof that either flubber or meg are exceptionally good at scum (no offense, i'm shit at scum too). so i don't see how that invalidates what i said?

and besides, literally all i said was "if the two leading wagons aren't voting each other, they're more likely to both be scum", why is this suddenly someting that "decent scum" doesn't do?

Is this to me or to MathBlade? If it's the former there's a big miscommunication here.