Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[greenknight]

The thing is I can see town posting as triangle did at the end of day 1 to justify a policy lynch, and I think tierce's interactions with triangle are more likely scum vs town. Have to reread triangle's day 1 iso for more clues

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 3.4 - As of post 726

Acosmist (3) - T-Bone, triangle123, Zang
Starbuck (1) - Greenknight
T-Bone (1) - Acosmist
triangle123 (1) - GreyICE

Not Voting (2) - Starbuck, CryMeARiver

The Current deadline is August 6, 2012 at 4:00pm EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-08-06 16:00:00).

With 8 active votes - 5 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - Starbuck has been prodded.

Mod Notes - As noted Mod is LA for weekend family duties.

[Zang]

And when you don't post for three days, can you say anyone else is lurking?

I mean, you can, but

I meant active lurking.

And there's a difference between not posting in three days and lurking throughout a game.

[Starbuck]

Sorry, I'm here. A friend has landed an awesome job down in Fort Myers and I have been helping her pack. Today's her going away party, so I'll be back in full force either late tonight (if I'm not too drunk), but definitely tomorrow morning.

[Acosmist]

Your being scum isn't a counterfactual in your mind?

There's a difference between saying "if I was scum, I would have instead done such-and-such" and saying "this attack does not make sense because scum would not do that".

So Acos, who do you think is scum? For what reasons do you find T-Bone scummy that don't have to do with his attack on you?

So which is it? Because the second is the very definition of WIFOM. Either way, you've made a startling admission.

T-Bone's lying obsession with me is something I cannot explain except by his being scum. I don't know why town would do it, and I've played plenty of games. That's enough for me.'

Anyone who agrees with T-Bone - seriously, address the fact that he is making things up. That's a thing that happened. Since activity is completely dying, it would be nice if discussion happened. When someone says "Acosmist never gave a reason for his suspicions" and I copy and paste that reasoning, it's disturbing that that leads to sort of a shrug. Does anyone think this game is in the bag to such an extent that we can coast? Because we sure are.

Your defense of your behavior is very bad and I think you have more interactions with Tierce that indicate scum, whereas T-Bone is just...inexplicable except on the scum hypothesis (unless he's someone's alt and has some beef against me).

Anyway, GreyICE, tell me more about Starbuck.

[Acosmist]

And when you don't post for three days, can you say anyone else is lurking?

I mean, you can, but

I meant active lurking.

And there's a difference between not posting in three days and lurking throughout a game.

Oh, no true Scotsmen, er, lurker, can be town. Got it.

[T-Bone]

Me and everyone else, Mod.

[MagnaofIllusion]

T-Bone, GreyICE and CryMeARiver have been prodded.

[Zang]

And when you don't post for three days, can you say anyone else is lurking?

I mean, you can, but

I meant active lurking.

And there's a difference between not posting in three days and lurking throughout a game.

Oh, no true Scotsmen, er, lurker, can be town. Got it.

I do not know what you mean. I never implied that lurkers can not be town.

[GreyICE]

Can I have a triangle lynch plox? It seems quite evident scum are content to ride out the day with things exactly like they are right now.

[CryMeARiver]

Not sure how I missed this previously. Tierece's interactions with greenknight + greenknight's wagon history and Tierce's avoidance of the greenknight wagon doesn't look good.

Vote: Greenknight

[greenknight]

Acosmist: Can't speak for others but the reason I'm not going after t-bone over his incorrect statements is because I agree with his overall assessment of your low interaction with the day 1 wagons, even if his ISO reading is sloppy. I don't think sloppy iso reading is an alignment tell because it doesn't make sense as optimal play for either town or scum.

CMAR: lol @ 735, how about you explain that one. I thought I was clearly town due to Tierce's attitude towards me.


I'm not sure why we are all reading triangle interactions differently but here's my analysis of day 1 between tierce/triangle/myself

Triangle starts by attacking me for the way I voted Zang

Tierce posts basically "I agree with everything triangle said, she is town" - this makes more sense as scum trying to buddy town to me, because it's clearly encouraging triangle to further attack me, and it is rare for scum to make this strong a statement about fellow scum this early in the game

At this point my wagon stalls out - I think it's acos / starbuck / triangle / zang at this point. Tierce then suddenly pulls a 180 dismisses me as town on a meta-read - this was why I questioned her on day 1. Given her scumflip the motivation is clear, because I am defending myself and others are defending me she doesn't think I will be lynched, so she's distancing herself from my wagon to look good

Triangle continues to argue with me for a while but, unlike starbuck, I didn't read her argument techniques as scummy so we both let it drop. (I also picked up a weak town read on zang from the insistence that I explicitly retract my tell on him.)

Later on triangle comments that she doesn't think tierce would deliberately lurk as scum - This is probably the most suspicious thing about triangle at this point, but look at what tierce does: she's feeling under some pressure since Greyice is calling her scum and she's been stalling on answering my question for a while. Triangle has made a wrong statement about her meta so tierce overreacts to it in order to fake scumhunting. I also think she's actively trying to make triangle look bad here, which reads as scum vs town.

Triangle's final vote on Jason where she's lynching a bad VT read over a possible PR. Disagree with the play, but I don't think her explanation is a scum tell as such. If she's scum with Tierce there's tons of easier scum excuses to vote Jason that would look less suspicious.

So I don't see Triangle as a likely tierce scum partner.

[triangle123]

So which is it? Because the second is the very definition of WIFOM. Either way, you've made a startling admission.

Uh huh. I'm curious to know what this so-called admission I've made is.

I think it's pretty clear it's the second one. But seriously, I didn't say, "Hey, look, scum probably wouldn't do that, therefore I'm town!" I clarified and explained my actions, and then pointed out that there isn't really a scum motivation for doing what I did.

What bothers me about Acosmist's scum-hunting is that he doesn't seem to be really trying. He points out one or two things about a player (e.g. T-Bone's misrepresentation of him) and talks about that at length, using that as reasoning to show that person is scum, but then doesn't make an attempt to see what else is scummy about that player. He doesn't seem to be really, actively trying to find scum.

[T-Bone]

Just about everyone seems bother by Acomist this day phase (everyone but Greyice has voted for him at some point) what bothers me is that with so many players bothered by him, or think he's scum to some degree, that he hasn't been lynched yet. The indecision shown on this lynch bothers me. I need to go back and see why players changed their minds here. The one who pops into my mind without me even having to look is CMAR, who unvoted because he didn't like the company he was keeping with who was voting him (Me and...Triangle I think). Why did the rest of you change your vote?

[GreyICE]

Acosmist: Can't speak for others but the reason I'm not going after t-bone over his incorrect statements is because I agree with his overall assessment of your low interaction with the day 1 wagons, even if his ISO reading is sloppy. I don't think sloppy iso reading is an alignment tell because it doesn't make sense as optimal play for either town or scum.

CMAR: lol @ 735, how about you explain that one. I thought I was clearly town due to Tierce's attitude towards me.


I'm not sure why we are all reading triangle interactions differently but here's my analysis of day 1 between tierce/triangle/myself

Triangle starts by attacking me for the way I voted Zang

Tierce posts basically "I agree with everything triangle said, she is town" - this makes more sense as scum trying to buddy town to me, because it's clearly encouraging triangle to further attack me, and it is rare for scum to make this strong a statement about fellow scum this early in the game

At this point my wagon stalls out - I think it's acos / starbuck / triangle / zang at this point. Tierce then suddenly pulls a 180 dismisses me as town on a meta-read - this was why I questioned her on day 1. Given her scumflip the motivation is clear, because I am defending myself and others are defending me she doesn't think I will be lynched, so she's distancing herself from my wagon to look good

Triangle continues to argue with me for a while but, unlike starbuck, I didn't read her argument techniques as scummy so we both let it drop. (I also picked up a weak town read on zang from the insistence that I explicitly retract my tell on him.)

Later on triangle comments that she doesn't think tierce would deliberately lurk as scum - This is probably the most suspicious thing about triangle at this point, but look at what tierce does: she's feeling under some pressure since Greyice is calling her scum and she's been stalling on answering my question for a while. Triangle has made a wrong statement about her meta so tierce overreacts to it in order to fake scumhunting. I also think she's actively trying to make triangle look bad here, which reads as scum vs town.

Triangle's final vote on Jason where she's lynching a bad VT read over a possible PR. Disagree with the play, but I don't think her explanation is a scum tell as such. If she's scum with Tierce there's tons of easier scum excuses to vote Jason that would look less suspicious.

So I don't see Triangle as a likely tierce scum partner.

Lets say I provisionally agree with you since this logic isn't terrible, and you're probably my strongest town read.

Who do you want to lynch? I will note Tierce will attack her scumbuddies, and she had to know she was going down soon, so I don't think it's as strong a town tell as you think, but I will wagon someone like T-Bone if you want. I almost want to call for a mass claim, because with three lynches if we could clear one of Acosmist/T-Bone/Triangle off a claim we'd be cooking with gas.

Starbuck, I dunno. Her claim was so bad, so, so, so bad. But she was the only person to push Tierce with me early, and it was with very similar reasoning to mine.

So what's our options? Because I'm seriously not letting T-Boner and the lurkettes define this lynch.

[Acosmist]

So which is it? Because the second is the very definition of WIFOM. Either way, you've made a startling admission.

Uh huh. I'm curious to know what this so-called admission I've made is.

I think it's pretty clear it's the second one. But seriously, I didn't say, "Hey, look, scum probably wouldn't do that, therefore I'm town!" I clarified and explained my actions, and then pointed out that there isn't really a scum motivation for doing what I did.

What bothers me about Acosmist's scum-hunting is that he doesn't seem to be really trying. He points out one or two things about a player (e.g. T-Bone's misrepresentation of him) and talks about that at length, using that as reasoning to show that person is scum, but then doesn't make an attempt to see what else is scummy about that player. He doesn't seem to be really, actively trying to find scum.

Either you meant:

1. The world where you are scum isn't a counterfactual world. That makes you scum.

or

2. You can't be scum because it would have been a bad scum play for you to do what you did. This is called WIFOM.

So, either:

1. You are scum

or

2. You never negated Grey's accusation, as WIFOM has precisely 0 weight.

So why are you leaving an accusation hanging out there against you?

[Acosmist]

Just about everyone seems bother by Acomist this day phase (everyone but Greyice has voted for him at some point) what bothers me is that with so many players bothered by him, or think he's scum to some degree, that he hasn't been lynched yet. The indecision shown on this lynch bothers me. I need to go back and see why players changed their minds here. The one who pops into my mind without me even having to look is CMAR, who unvoted because he didn't like the company he was keeping with who was voting him (Me and...Triangle I think). Why did the rest of you change your vote?

Yo, still waiting for that analysis on me. Why are you just ignoring what I say?

[Acosmist]

So what's our options? Because I'm seriously not letting T-Boner and the lurkettes define this lynch.

I'll vote with you for T-Bone or triangle. I wanted more about Starbuck, because there has to be a decisive tell hidden in there somewhere and you have more experience (this would also have the effect of getting you to commit to that). Zang has been lurky bad but I recently modded a game where he was scum, and his behavior doesn't quite match that. It would take a few wild horses to drag me to his lynch, but a finite number.

We definitely need to get on some sort of decision because the activity level will stretch out the time period needed to do anything like a mass claim or get a wagon going on a sleep candidate.

[triangle123]

2. You never negated Grey's accusation, as WIFOM has precisely 0 weight.

You read my original post where I addressed his argument, correct? Because if you did, you will recall that I didn't just go HAHA SCUM WOULDN'T DO THAT. I also, you know, explained and clarified my actions, and added that as an afterthought.

[T-Bone]

What analysis? That stupid "meta argument" you wanted? I don't use meta. Otherwise I have shown why you are scum in the posts I have called you scum. But since we're on the subject, why does your meta matter? Are you trying to claim you never change your meta and thus are playing a town game right now? Or are you trying to claim you always change your meta and thus are playing a town game. Either way your meta tells me nothing and wastes my time. Unless the goal is to get me to waste my time, in which case the exercise would. I don't need another game to tell me you're scum, you've done enough during this game.

[Starbuck]

Alrighty, back to business...

I also explained this. Tierce claimed a power role so I saw no rush to lynch her Day 1. I'd have rather lost a VT who barely contributed than a possible power role. And furthermore, if I was scum and knew for certain Jason was going to flip town, would I really admit he's a town read, call Tierce a null read, and then vote for his lynch?

WIFOM with a bit of emotion there, and to answer that question. I'd definitely say yes.

Why put this in? Why not leave your reply as it is, and say you were misinterpreted? Why "Oh and even if that happened..."?

Why is this apparent counterfactual even in your mind?

What? I wasn't misinterpreted there. I was misinterpreted about the "Tierce defense". It's true that I had a null read on Tierce and a town read on Jason. I explained my reasoning for choosing to vote my town read. And then I added that his attack doesn't make sense because it wasn't even something scum would do. There's no counterfactual here.

Admitting that you have a town read and then voting that town read is hypocritical! Why don't you see this?

You called him town several times (172, 282), you couldn't 180 and call him scum, but when the wire came down with wagons tied you wanted your "town read" dead over actual scum - who you called null, yet spent more time defending than your so-called town read.

This, completely.

The thing is I can see town posting as triangle did at the end of day 1 to justify a policy lynch, and I think tierce's interactions with triangle are more likely scum vs town. Have to reread triangle's day 1 iso for more clues

Who was being policy lynched at the end of Day 1?

I thought I was clearly town due to Tierce's attitude towards me.

How so?

Later on triangle comments that she doesn't think tierce would deliberately lurk as scum - This is probably the most suspicious thing about triangle at this point, but look at what tierce does: she's feeling under some pressure since Greyice is calling her scum and she's been stalling on answering my question for a while. Triangle has made a wrong statement about her meta so tierce overreacts to it in order to fake scumhunting. I also think she's actively trying to make triangle look bad here, which reads as scum vs town.

Tierce admitted that she deliberately lurks as scum. That's what started her wagon.

Triangle did not make a wrong statement. Triangle made a right statement and Tierce went on the overdefensive and overreacted immensely. It definitely read (to me) as scum getting pissed about their partner outing their tell, which is exactly why I voted Tierce.

Now with this defense of Triangle, I'm wondering if you are the third in the triangle (heh) of scum.

!triangle123

[Starbuck]

Sorry about that vote, it's how we do it on View Askew/Mafiastache.

Vote: triangle123

[CryMeARiver]

@Green: It seems to me he defended you while keeping distance nd not hard buddying

[greenknight]

Who was being policy lynched at the end of Day 1?

Jason.

I thought I was clearly town due to Tierce's attitude towards me.

How so?

Because tierce pushes me (via triangle) when my wagon has momentum and switched to dismissing me as town (with a weak meta argument thrown in) only AFTER it stalled. She then stalls me for a while when I ask her an inconvenient question about this later.

Tierce admitted that she deliberately lurks as scum. That's what started her wagon.

Triangle did not make a wrong statement. Triangle made a right statement and Tierce went on the overdefensive and overreacted immensely. It definitely read (to me) as scum getting pissed about their partner outing their tell, which is exactly why I voted Tierce.

no... that's not what started the wagon, Greyice suspicion of her did. And triangle clearly made an incorrect statement. What triangle said was that Tierce would NOT lurk as scum. Tierce, who had been lurking for a while, then went "that's BS because I do sometimes lurk as scum." So tierce was the one to out her own lurking as scummy (covering it up with the WIFOM "why would I point this out if I was scum" afterwards.) In fact, you mentioned this point on d1.

Who do you want to lynch? I will note Tierce will attack her scumbuddies, and she had to know she was going down soon, so I don't think it's as strong a town tell as you think, but I will wagon someone like T-Bone if you want. I almost want to call for a mass claim, because with three lynches if we could clear one of Acosmist/T-Bone/Triangle off a claim we'd be cooking with gas.

Starbuck, I dunno. Her claim was so bad, so, so, so bad. But she was the only person to push Tierce with me early, and it was with very similar reasoning to mine.

Well I'm not saying it's an infallible tell, but if we admit the possibility that Tierce could be making a scene by attacking scum-triangle, why couldn't scum-starbuck be attacking Tierce? I think scum were pretty confident of getting the Jason lynch with both T-bone and acos sitting on each other and calling each other scum with jason, and kortul/korlash who were probably the 2 townies with the most credibility at that point coming down against Jason.

I still think starbuck is scum based on the claim yesterday and her scummy argument techniques used against me on d1 and would lynch. Why do you think that T-bone is scum over acos?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is just a bit of odd wobbly wobbly timey wimey stuff ... ignore it ...