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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:23 am
by JordanA24
Questions for Bertrand

bertrand wrote:I don't get how being indecisive is a scummy trait. It's something that mgiht benefit scum, but it's completely normal for any player.
Why isn't indecisiveness a scum trait?
Bertrand wrote:Are you that convinced he's scum?

Because if we do this and you're wrong, we're screwed. I don't like this plan either.
Why did you seem to assume that ThAdmiral is town here?
I wrote:After that, he went silent for a while, and then had no access for a week. And then went missing for the rest of Day 2, even missing his turn, before FINALLY coming back near the end of Day 3, saying the Death_Omen wagon looked good, but not voting him, in fact, he even suggested an alternative target, ThAdmiral.
Where were you all this time? Why did you suggest ThAdmiral as an alternative target?
Bertrand wrote:I also think ThAdmiral was a good candidate - he was setting up chain lynches, directing the vig, and all on townies..

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:21 am
by bertrand
@Thesp: I didn't mean that if Jordan were scum he would have nightkilled me. I mean, if he were scum, he would have just voted me off now and won.
JordanA24 wrote:Why isn't indecisiveness a scum trait?
Well, scum might have a motive ro be indecisive. But it could also be a townie who just doesn't know what to do.
JordanA24 wrote:
Bertrand wrote:Are you that convinced he's scum?

Because if we do this and you're wrong, we're screwed. I don't like this plan either.
Why did you seem to assume that ThAdmiral is town here?
Because, I'm pointing out that his plan is very dangerous. The risk of him being wrong alone was not worth it. I didn't even factor in the risk of him being scum. It just wasn't needed.
JordanA24 wrote:
I wrote:After that, he went silent for a while, and then had no access for a week. And then went missing for the rest of Day 2, even missing his turn, before FINALLY coming back near the end of Day 3, saying the Death_Omen wagon looked good, but not voting him, in fact, he even suggested an alternative target, ThAdmiral.
Where were you all this time? Why did you suggest ThAdmiral as an alternative target?
[/quote]

Reasons are listed right in that post below the question.. I thought that was reason enough.

In that time I was on a 2 week vacation, and my mind was elsewhere at other times.. :\
JordanA24 wrote:
Bertrand wrote:I also think ThAdmiral was a good candidate - he was setting up chain lynches, directing the vig, and all on townies..
[/quote]

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:27 am
by JordanA24
You replaced in on Post 17, and yet you're opening post basically said this:

[quote="Bertrand"We don't have a really good case on anyone. Though CES is probably our beat lead, I'n not nearly ready for a lynch. We need to find more things to discuss..[/quote]

CES was the only person you mentioned, this is scummy IMO. During the game, you seem to have been pretty much in the background and hardly ever posting anything big.

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:39 pm
by bertrand
CES was the only person I thought was the slightest bit scummy, we didn't have much... what did you want me to do? Pretend someone was scummy?

There was no dishonesty in that post.

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:44 am
by JordanA24
Well, you said "We need to find more things to discuss", you've the one who's just replaced in and reread the game, why didn't you bring something up? Why didn't you try to take a more proactive stance towards the game in general?

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:32 am
by Thesp
JordanA24 wrote:Eh? Where did you get this from Thesp? It seemed quite obvious that he was saying he didn't want to hunt scum, just roll the dice instead.
IIRC, his comment appeared to me to be a pointed shot at those who were simply rolling dice and not doing anything else in the game. That seemed very different from not wanting to hunt scum - he was taking a shot at those who were using dice-rolling as an activity excuse.
JordanA24 wrote:Why? And why are you saying you'd be happy with lynches this early?
I often mis-read JordanA24 in a similar way to another player - I mis-read his anti-town play as coming from an anti-town role, rather than sub-optimal play. I think I was suspicious of Mojo for his only two content posts to that date, which were the post which I thought he misinterpreted of Dagger, and the bandwagon on Nocmen, which sat uneasily with me.
JordanA24 wrote:Hang on, you said in your post, you weren't fond of the Nocmen wagon, yet you didn't take your vote off him. Explain please.
Good question. I don't know. I might not have thought of my vote being on Nocmen or forgotten about it, but I don't know.
Thesp wrote:Because I think you're full of it, and giving suspect reasons for your early attacks.
Second reason is OK, but the first is an example of lynching the player not the role, never a good thing for the town to do.[/quote]
I didn't think he was full of it
in general as a player
, I thought he was full of it
in this game
, and I thought he was lying.
JordanA24 wrote:Why do you need a vote count? Surely you should just vote for who you find scummiest. Asking for a vote count makes it look like you want to bandwagon. I find this statement very scummy.
Actually, it's for the reasons Seol mentioned - with the deadline coming up, where the vote was would matter, and voting for someone with 0 votes would be worse than insignificant.
JordanA24 wrote:Bit quick to jump to conclusions, aren't we?
I've noticed a propensity for people to think the ideal fake-claim for SK is Vig. I wanted to see reactions, and I didn't think the N0 kill was pro-town.
JordanA24, re: vig comments wrote:Quite a change of tune, why?
Because people weren't getting the message. People starting trying to tell the vig what to do, rather than make suggestions. It was more directed than I was comfortable with, and I wanted to shut it down.
JordanA24 wrote:
Thesp wrote:
Mokina wrote:No matter who the cop is, they should take into account the possibility of sanity issues. CES's reasoning makes a lot of sense, admittedly. Pointing it out would be very protown if he wasn't expecting a roleclaim.

Except he is. He wants the entire thread to know the cop's identity, and that's a rather scummy motive.

FoS: CES
Thanks for outing yourself as kilmenator's partner.

Why the frick would CES want the whole thread to know the cop's identity? Wouldn't that key in the doctor to who the cop is? That, it seems to me, would be bad for scum. Now, I am in no way suggesting the cop should out themselves or drop hints or anything at this point (for all we know, the scum have a roleblocker, see prior argument re: directing the vig). Yet it seems the manner in which CES did it is decidedly not more likely to come from scum than town - note that he asked only one person, and even gave them an out and said they didn't have to answer. (Besides, scum hunt for cops at night with their buddies, not during the day, as they don't want the town to know who the cop is.) This attack is weak, opportunistic, and merely posing as scum-hunting. (I also thought the sanity-issues line was a pre-emptive attack on a power role, which is also scummy.)

Unvote: kilmenator, Vote: Mokina. I'd vote kilmenator to avoid a no-lynch, but I'm more certain of Mokina.

I am 1000% against a CES lynch today.
In this post, you seem way too sure that CES is town, and you're basing all your suspicions (and the fact that you wouldn't mind if the cop claimed) on your certainty that he is.
It wasn't so much that - I wasn't comfortable with how he was being approached. I thought the attacks on him were misguided/scummy, and I thought based on his posts he was significantly more likely to be town than those who were attacking him.
JordanA24, re:my attack on his approach towards me & CES wrote:And who's the one that's been making links between players all game? This seems horribly hypocritical to me.
It wasn't because of making links - it was based on
how
you made them. Notwithstanding that scum rarely openly defend their partners, you seemed to be throwing suspicion on anyone who would making reasonable statements which suggested CES was town, and that felt like intimidation.
bertrand wrote:@Thesp: I didn't mean that if Jordan were scum he would have nightkilled me. I mean, if he were scum, he would have just voted me off now and won.
Ah, that makes more sense now.

I will note that there were a lot more questions for me than bertrand, which I suspect is a byproduct of activity. Looks to me like bertrand has been lying low and avoiding the spotlight. I do think this:
JordanA24 wrote:You replaced in on Post 17, and yet you're opening post basically said this:
Bertrand wrote:We don't have a really good case on anyone. Though CES is probably our beat lead, I'n not nearly ready for a lynch. We need to find more things to discuss..


CES was the only person you mentioned, this is scummy IMO. During the game, you seem to have been pretty much in the background and hardly ever posting anything big.
...is quite perceptive. Scum here ideally would like to not be associated with the lynch of a townie, yet still see it happen, and his first two posts do this precisely. There were other alternatives, but talking them up may steal the thunder from a CES lynch, and continuing with the general apathy which the town seemed to have would most likely lead to a CES lynch. His play coming in is terribly consistent with how scum would come in.
bertrand wrote:CES was the only person I thought was the slightest bit scummy, we didn't have much... what did you want me to do? Pretend someone was scummy?

There was no dishonesty in that post.
I disagree entirely that we didn't have much at that point, and if we didn't have much at 17 pages(!), perhaps something ought to be made, which you were reticent to do. Also, "methink he doth protest too much" on "There was no dishonesty in that post". Comments like that more frequently come from someone who think they won't be believed. (I can bring up some textual/literary criticism on that point if need be.)

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:51 am
by bertrand
JordanA24 wrote:Well, you said "We need to find more things to discuss", you've the one who's just replaced in and reread the game, why didn't you bring something up? Why didn't you try to take a more proactive stance towards the game in general?
By doing what? Throwing a random accusation out? I had nothing. I'm just not that confident, I guess.

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:45 am
by Thesp
bertrand wrote:
JordanA24 wrote:Well, you said "We need to find more things to discuss", you've the one who's just replaced in and reread the game, why didn't you bring something up? Why didn't you try to take a more proactive stance towards the game in general?
By doing what? Throwing a random accusation out? I had nothing. I'm just not that confident, I guess.
Perhaps you could have asked questions of people to elicit responses? Even this cursory move would have gotten things going from the status quo.

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:56 am
by JordanA24
OK, I've made my choice, if I'm wrong, I apologise to the town and congratulate the scum. Here goes...























Vote: Bertrand
*Crosses fingers*

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:02 am
by Thesp
Go town. :cool:

Before-post-edit: Unless you're actually scum, JordanA24, in which case, you're a turd. :evil:

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:10 am
by JordanA24
Thesp wrote:Before-post-edit: Unless you're actually scum, JordanA24, in which case, you're a turd. :evil:
No need to worry about that ^5

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:43 am
by bertrand
Daykill: Thesp


:P

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:12 am
by Nai
Sorry about being late about this, I didn't even realize you guys had spilled onto page 30.

Voting Record

Bertrand: Thesp and JordanA24
Thesp: Bertrand

Good game, Scum. You played incredibly well. Congratulations.

To the town, that is.

Bertrand was Scum and, even though they brought it down to the wire, the town wins.

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:34 am
by somestrangeflea
Nice!

Just a request, can we have a list of Night Choices please!?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:43 am
by Thesp
somestrangeflea wrote:Nice!

Just a request, can we have a list of Night Choices please!?
And what abilities could be purchased, some info on Farkles, etc.?

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:51 am
by Nocmen
Yea...well...this game pretty much was me playing really shitty as a town member, though I did accidentally hit scum Night 0.

I am somewhat dissappointed by the way Farkling turned out, sucks that it took away from the game itself, and was pretty much gone for the rest of the game.

Somehow, I guess I can say I'm happy the town won, even though I was replaced.

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:29 am
by kilmenator
YAY. After I gave my investigations, I have to admit I was a little worried that Thesp could have been investigation immune, because I did not expect him to follow along with my investigations without question so quickly, YAY town!

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:46 am
by death_omen
Argh, dam you cop! Without the cop I doubt i would have ever got lynched.

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:30 am
by kilmenator
death_omen wrote:Argh, dam you cop! Without the cop I doubt i would have ever got lynched.
That is why most games have some sort of investigative power. Usually, I am not a very good cop at all, I suck at it, I am an even worse Doctor.

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:57 pm
by Nai
SSF wrote:Nice!

Just a request, can we have a list of Night Choices please!?
Working on compiling that. Expect it in a day or so.
Thesp wrote:And what abilities could be purchased, some info on Farkles, etc.?
I basically looked at a list of "Doc, Cop, Roleblocker, Vig" and rolled a die.
Nocmen wrote:I am somewhat dissappointed by the way Farkling turned out, sucks that it took away from the game itself, and was pretty much gone for the rest of the game.
I'm just as disappointed. I was hoping the town would be able to focus on the game. It just didn't happen. All the replacements probably weren't good, either.

Game Setup:
3 Mafia
1 Sane Cop
1 Doc
1 Roleblocker
1 Vig
5 Townies

1. dahen
2. Coron
4. Dagger
7. Thesp
8. JordanA24

3. ThAdmiral - Doc
5. kilmenator - Cop
9. Cogito Ergo Scum - Roleblocker
10. Somestrangeflea - Vig


6. Death_Omen - Mafia
11. DeanWinchester - Mafia
12. Bertrand - Mafia

Coron was given a one-shot Cop after his Farkle, but was killed the same night.

Thesp was also given a one-shot Cop.

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:20 pm
by Dagger
W00T!

Town win! Heh.
kilmenator wrote:
death_omen wrote:Argh, dam you cop! Without the cop I doubt i would have ever got lynched.
That is why most games have some sort of investigative power. Usually, I am not a very good cop at all, I suck at it, I am an even worse Doctor.
The town effectively have a cop, with 2 more one-shot cops. Everything should indicate the existence of a godfather.

When Admiral was killed at night, I actually had a sinking feeling either one of Thesp or Jordan was it.

I am so glad it wasn't.

Now, was I really that scummy this game?

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:22 am
by Nai
FYI, before anyone comes to me about 'unbalanced', the scum could have gotten those three abilities too. It was just luck that the town got them first.

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:36 am
by Thesp
Nai wrote:FYI, before anyone comes to me about 'unbalanced', the scum could have gotten those three abilities too. It was just luck that the town got them first.
Yes, but:
Nai wrote:Game Setup:
3 Mafia
1 Sane Cop
1 Doc
1 Roleblocker
1 Vig
5 Townies
This was already tilted towards the town's favor. Add to that a statistical likelihood that town would get beneficial abilities, and that the abilities weren't that useful to scum.

Also, how did the scum get past the supposed doc-protection from ThAdmiral to kill kilmenator? (I was worried someone might ponder on that and think I'd actually won a superkill with my farkling!)

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:28 pm
by Nai
That's a really good question. After looking at my inbox, I hate to say it, but apparently I clicked the PM, didn't mark it on my list of night actions, and then looked at my PM a few days later (when everyone else had chimed in) and thought it was a night action from the previous night.

In other words, I goofed, and it wasn't brought to my attention until now.

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:06 pm
by Dagger
>_>

So, Kilm needn't die in all actuality?

Luckily the town won then.