Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[Florestan]

Here I'll make a Ranger list

{Panther, Dunn}
{Duppin}
{Ploben}
{Karnos, Chip}
{null}
{Shadow, Kuroi, Scott}
{BTD}
{ranger}

[ploben]

Please note: I'm hard aligning with PantherPunt today

if so, I suggest you move your vote to one of Ranger or Kuroi by the way

Kuroi pinged me but I'm not sure about scumminess yet.

Ranger, maybe. Would make sense if Chip and Karnos are town. Otherwise there would be 2 scum on my wagon, which I find highly unlikely (unless an unrecruited traitor is early on my wagon and the goon came in after).

I'm just not sold on town Chip.

Can you point to his townie posts you eluded to in 685?

[PantherPunt]

Please note: I'm hard aligning with PantherPunt today

if so, I suggest you move your vote to one of Ranger or Kuroi by the way

Kuroi pinged me but I'm not sure about scumminess yet.

Ranger, maybe. Would make sense if Chip and Karnos are town. Otherwise there would be 2 scum on my wagon, which I find highly unlikely (unless an unrecruited traitor is early on my wagon and the goon came in after).

I'm just not sold on town Chip.

Can you point to his townie posts you eluded to in 685?

Interesting on Kuroi

Why does Ranger make sense if Chip and Karnos are town? It's just not instantly occurring to me.

and ya I'll do a Chip iso

[PantherPunt]

oh the thing about voters on you. I don't put much stock into "I doubt scum would vote together" type of stuff

but I also have chip and karnos as town...so ya

[PantherPunt]

My scum list is

Ranger
Kuroi
BTD

with a side of Scott (on lack of anything to make me read him as town), and a touch of Florestan (feels and some stuff I haven't said); they'd be possible replacements for BTD on that list. though looking at Flor's recent list, it's rather similar to mine

[ploben]

Why does Ranger make sense if Chip and Karnos are town? It's just not instantly occurring to me.

I think I'm an easy mislynch today so scum could vote me with that stupid IC thing as justification. If the first two voters on my wagon are town then Ranger coming in as 3rd is a good spot for scum to park their vote on a townie. If there are 2 scum out of the 3 total voters on me, that would be a hell of a strategy. I would tend to think scum wouldn't want to align themselves that much on a mislynch of a townie.

But it's true, scum would literally do ANYTHING to win. So even if all 3 mafia (traitor recruited, all mafia know about each other) voted on a town mislynch, it would be a hell of a defense to say "No way all the scum team voted on town here." It's all WIFOM anyway you whack it.

Your case against Ranger I can side with. It does seem like all she is doing is posting about meta and defending with some pretty crap reads thrown in the mix.

[PantherPunt]

You know the mod can't answer that right

I think he is obliged to. We are entitled to know everything about the setup, including the answer to this question. If Shadow was compromised by Moderr as Ranger says, then that is bad luck for Shadow.

I had a whole bunch of quotes +'d but I undid it bc I wanted to ask Chip about this post.

Chip - Ranger was saying Shadow was cleared by the supposed "mod error"

How or why did you think the mod answering your question was going to implicate Shadow?

[karnos]

Explain.

Your OMGUS vote switch to chip butty. Your claim that I have been talking about his town slips (please give a reference, I don't recall that at all). The continuation of the suspected scum team to never FOS each other.

Is there any player in this game who could flip scum and clear me as town in your mind?

Not in this setup, because of the potential existence of a traitor role. I'm not saying I could never regard you as "likely town", but a singular scum flip in the absence of any other change wouldn't clear you on it's own.

[ploben]

Actually, going back and ISO'ing Ranger, I found her vote on me in a extremely odd place:

I'm not saying she is lying, but I thought there was a possibility that what she said in Open 638 was unreliable when I had my read.

Except I told you both in the dead thread and postgame it was just a normal mistake.

VOTE: ploben.

It just has no context to it and is dropped in after responding to something else.

So I looked through and she actually has no case on me. To be fair, she says she hasn't gotten to it yet. She says in 469 that 134 is especially closer to the reason she scum reads me.

Spoiler: Post 134

Also I'm confirmed (not so) Innocent (mind like a) Child.

That's supposed to be Mod-confirmed, and I don't see the Mod confirming it yet. Until he does...

UNVOTE: VOTE: ploben

Mod must be a little backed up, he'll post it soon.

My claim was clearly a joke

I see you original IC comment potentially being a joke, but you response to chip butty is totally not a joke. You post a joke, someone takes it as a serious post, you reply "lol, I was joking". When you don't do that, it makes your whole statement suspect.

This all goes back the the IC claim and responses. Nothing more.

It's a crap case.

[Chip Butty]

You know the mod can't answer that right

I think he is obliged to. We are entitled to know everything about the setup, including the answer to this question. If Shadow was compromised by Moderr as Ranger says, then that is bad luck for Shadow.

I had a whole bunch of quotes +'d but I undid it bc I wanted to ask Chip about this post.

Chip - Ranger was saying Shadow was cleared by the supposed "mod error"

How or why did you think the mod answering your question was going to implicate Shadow?

How did you get a read on Shadow_Step on page 1?

Two sources.
First, mod error. Shadow_step replaced in for a slot who, as Persivul explicitly said, did not pick up their role PMs. If the slot were scum, then we wouldn't have had scum choose the setup.

So, given Mod's answer that, even with one scum being replaced, the remaining scum can choose the role-mods, this seems to come to nothing. Ranger, what is you ranking of Shadow now?

It was a derp resulting from misreading Ranger's post. I quietly got it right in #243...

[ploben]

Explain.

Your OMGUS vote switch to chip butty. Your claim that I have been talking about his town slips (please give a reference, I don't recall that at all). The continuation of the suspected scum team to never FOS each other.

Is there any player in this game who could flip scum and clear me as town in your mind?

Not in this setup, because of the potential existence of a traitor role. I'm not saying I could never regard you as "likely town", but a singular scum flip in the absence of any other change wouldn't clear you on it's own.

You're tunneling and that's dangerous, if you are in fact town. The object of town is to find and point out scummy things. That's what I'm doing and voting where I see appropriate.

[PantherPunt]

Explain.

Your OMGUS vote switch to chip butty. Your claim that I have been talking about his town slips (please give a reference, I don't recall that at all). The continuation of the suspected scum team to never FOS each other.

Is there any player in this game who could flip scum and clear me as town in your mind?

Not in this setup, because of the potential existence of a traitor role. I'm not saying I could never regard you as "likely town", but a singular scum flip in the absence of any other change wouldn't clear you on it's own.

Imagine that the person who flips in the scenario is an unrecruited traitor. Answer in that context

[PantherPunt]

re: 733 agreed. That vote is characteristically scum. slipped in when you hadn't posted since her last post, and you weren't a topic of discussion for her (or anyone else outside of floretsan including you on a read list)

re: 734 ok

I'll give a quick rundown of chip stuff I like OUTSIDE of the page 2 derpclear

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler: smattering of Chip posts I liked

I don't see the mod confirmation. Claiming a role when no reason to claim it, and claiming a role that can be mod confirmed without the mod confirm? That seems scummy as hell to me.
UNVOTE: Ranger

How so? You think mafia claims as innocent child at game start? Why is it scummy?

This ploben mini-wagon is dumb but here's a good one:

VOTE: karnos

RVS is over boys everyone vote karnos

I'm actually feeling good about Chip Butty being town so far

I wish I could reciprocate, but not getting the point about proben's Innocent Child claim and voting karnos for it looks scummy to me. As for karnos, I'm not sure; he could just be sheeping my view on proben.

VOTE: Ranger
Per my usual random vote policy of voting #1 on the player list.

Except...

Also I'm confirmed (not so) Innocent (mind like a) Child.

I don't see the mod confirmation. Claiming a role when no reason to claim it, and claiming a role that can be mod confirmed without the mod confirm? That seems scummy as hell to me.
UNVOTE: Ranger

VOTE: ploben

This looks very contrived. either you have that policy, or you don't. It looks like your policy is really "Vote #1 on the player list, unless there is someone else I want to vote for".

As mafia, when you are making up a reason to push someone, especially this early, you're happy to have people buy into it.
I like that he's immediately skeptical of karnos potentially sheeping him and then calls him out for what (I agreed fwiw) looked like a fake post.
Sure other worlds are possible, where they're both scum and chip wants to distance from the association. Or chip wants to just "appear" town by doubting someone who agrees with him. But the scenario where chip is town seems wholly more likely than the latter two to me.

As town, it serves what purpose exactly? I can't think of one, sorry. It's just throwing misinformation around. It can't confuse scum, they already know who is town, but it could confuse fellow town. It's simply playing against your win condition as town.

Well, as I said earlier, it could conceivably have been Town VT trying to draw the NK, if ploben didn't notice the Mod confirm thing. If he had said that was what he was doing, I might have given him the benefit of the doubt. But he has clearly chosen the "joke" defense, which looks very shaky to me.

I often read people as town based on "How hard is it to come up with this thought process/post as scum." Essentially, is a post not easily faked.
This is an example of that imo. Giving the perspective that someone is potentially VT trying to draw a NK isn't something you often see scum positing about someone who softs/crumbs/flat out claims a PR.

First, mod error. Shadow_step replaced in for a slot who, as Persivul explicitly said, did not pick up their role PMs. If the slot were scum, then we wouldn't have had scum choose the setup.

Uh.... there's more than one mafia to choose the setup
Mafia traitor is also a role that exists

It depends on what policy the Mod implemented on the scum setup choices. If he wanted to wait for a full complement of scum before letting them choose their role-mods, then Ranger is correct. OTOH, if he was content to let a partial complement of scum go ahead and choose the role-mods, then not.

Mod: What is your policy in the situation where you have a scum drop out in the setup phase? Do you insist on having a full complement of scum aboard before allowing the choice of scum role-mods, or not?

Another post akin to the derpclear from page 2. Don't see scum fake asking this question. Read as genuinely wanting to get an answer to clear up Ranger's dumb clear of Shadow.

@Chip, this is how I understand it: He was "rescinding" his IC claim because you thought he was being serious. Him asking you if it would mean your vote on him would be on him throughout the whole day is basically him saying he won't ever be modconfirmed.

Fine, we read that sequence of posts differently. Your interpretation might even be correct but, on balance of probability as I see it, I'm sticking with mine for the time being.

Also, ploben's recent posts look like flailing and OMGUS, and aren't doing anything to lessen my suspicion of him.

"We read that sequence of posts differently" is a townie pacifistic way to agree to disagree that you don't often see scum do. He is not yielding his point, but he is yielding that he understands how someone else could interpret it differently. (though he still thinks duppin might be scum with ploben, I think)

Where's Bulletproof Ben?

I thinking lurking scum is very dangerous in this particular game. This yields to little to no associations and makes it very tough for town to evaluate.

VOTE: AlpacaAlpaca

Current thoughts on Scott? He's posted even less than Alpaca.

These two posts show that he's trying to take in the entire player list. He's trying to get reads on everyone. I'm kind of amazed he's the first person to ask "Where's Ben"
And asking ploben is similarly solvey and shows some depth that he recognizes Scott is guilty of the same thing ploben called alpaca on - lurking/low activity.

[karnos]

Why does Ranger make sense if Chip and Karnos are town? It's just not instantly occurring to me.

I think I'm an easy mislynch today so scum could vote me with that stupid IC thing as justification. If the first two voters on my wagon are town then Ranger coming in as 3rd is a good spot for scum to park their vote on a townie.

You have 3 votes, 7 are required to lynch. If ranger is scum, then you need the other two scum plus 2 townies to vote you in addition to the votes you already have. I think your fear of being quick lynched is unfounded. Town should understand that hammering without delay shows as incredibly scummy, and scum wouldn't trade a scum life for one lynch.

Is there any player in this game who could flip scum and clear me as town in your mind?

Not in this setup, because of the potential existence of a traitor role. I'm not saying I could never regard you as "likely town", but a singular scum flip in the absence of any other change wouldn't clear you on it's own.

Imagine that the person who flips in the scenario is an unrecruited traitor. Answer in that context

BTD - wouldn't clear, but would add some reasonable doubt
duppin/Dranstral - fits with my most likely scum team theory, so no.

Chip Butty - yes, sure. if he flipped as scum, I'd have to seriously reconsider the case on ploben.

others- might increase doubt a little bit, but I wouldn't say "clear"

[KuroiXHF]

Can you tell me why you thought that post warranted a wagon on ChipBuddy, but this post does not warrant you even mentioning Karnos?

This post did not concern Karnos to me in any way, and I'm unsure where you're getting that from. Chip was scummy because he's the proverbial "that guy" as in the guy who ends the RVS stage because he misreads a joke and finds someone scummy. He took something that was a simple joke, attested by another, and begun tunneling.

I've already answered that, Panther. That's how I read it.

Oh where'd you answer it?

And can you show me how you read it that way? Like which words of Shadow's made you think the reason for his Alpaca scumread were reasons of inactivity/lurking? I'm just trying to understand your thought processes and hopefully read you correctly. You want that, as town, don't you?

603, 640

The context made me feel it was because of inactivity. Alpaca's posts were all questions in determining how the game was going and questioning others. The craziest thing he said was in 304 where he stated that he claimed he was considered scum because he was behind Ploben.

Shadow first expressed his dislike in 231, but it was based on Alpaca's entry, which is fine, but one of the key words that stuck with me was the word "Passive." As in, not being active. As in, lurking. The insinuation is that because Alpaca is passive, he is flying underneath the radar.

Not liking someone's entry is not usually grounds for wanting to lynch them - maybe so if they're lurking along with being scummy.

I hope you guys are understanding my dislike of Shadow's play.

[KuroiXHF]

Karnos, scum rarely ever put all their teammates on one person unless it's lylo and the conditions are right.

Chances are, one's bussing another while defending one of us.

[PantherPunt]

Ok so I am a little iffy on Ranger and her reads since I have never played with her before I have no idea if she is good at reading RVS, but I plan on seeing how her reads turn out D2.

this gives minor additional credence to my strong ranger/kuroi scum/scum theory
alpaca talks as if he is not going to consider the possibility of scum-reading/lynching Ranger and as if he KNOWS ranger will be around d2 (i.e. she isn't going to be night killed)

it's not a lock, but it's not nothing

[PantherPunt]

Karnos, scum rarely ever put all their teammates on one person unless it's lylo and the conditions are right.

Chances are, one's bussing another while defending

one of us

.

lmao for real?

[PantherPunt]

The context made me feel it was because of inactivity. Alpaca's posts were all questions in determining how the game was going and questioning others. The craziest thing he said was in 304 where he stated that he claimed he was considered scum because he was behind Ploben.

Shadow first expressed his dislike in 231, but it was based on Alpaca's entry, which is fine, but one of the key words that stuck with me was the word "Passive." As in, not being active. As in, lurking. The insinuation is that because Alpaca is passive, he is flying underneath the radar.

He said "passively dismissing the case"

You have to take 2 trains, a bus, and ride a bike for a little to get from "passively" > not being active > lurking

I don't believe you thought that. I believe you made up a reason to attribute to shadow's scumread on your slot. Why? idk... but none of it adds up to me as a genuine thought progression

[KuroiXHF]

Karnos, scum rarely ever put all their teammates on one person unless it's lylo and the conditions are right.

Chances are, one's bussing another while defending

one of us

.

lmao for real?

NO. IM JOKIN LOLZ!!!!!!111one1
Seriously, what kind of answers do you expect from these stupid questions?

The context made me feel it was because of inactivity. Alpaca's posts were all questions in determining how the game was going and questioning others. The craziest thing he said was in 304 where he stated that he claimed he was considered scum because he was behind Ploben.

Shadow first expressed his dislike in 231, but it was based on Alpaca's entry, which is fine, but one of the key words that stuck with me was the word "Passive." As in, not being active. As in, lurking. The insinuation is that because Alpaca is passive, he is flying underneath the radar.

He said "passively dismissing the case"

By being inactive.

You have to take 2 trains, a bus, and ride a bike for a little to get from "passively" > not being active > lurking

Or you don't have to do any of those because we're talking about words. Your attempt at stand up comedy isn't getting you anywhere.

I don't believe you thought that. I believe you made up a reason to attribute to shadow's scumread on your slot. Why? idk... but none of it adds up to me as a genuine thought progression

Probably because we don't think the same way. Next time I scum hunt, I'll add more transportation analogies.

[PantherPunt]

just read Kuroi in Mini 1773 where they're town.....NOTHING like this at all. I could observe depth of thought there that showed an attempt to solve/discern alignments. follow up on questions/points, and a drastically different tone that seemed much more genuine and carefree as compared to what I'm reading here that seems heavily forced/faked

[PantherPunt]

Karnos, scum rarely ever put all their teammates on one person unless it's lylo and the conditions are right.

Chances are, one's bussing another while defending

one of us

.

lmao for real?

NO. IM JOKIN LOLZ!!!!!!111one1
Seriously, what kind of answers do you expect from these stupid questions?

looked like you accidentally claimed scum. guess I can read it where "us" means us townies.

The context made me feel it was because of inactivity. Alpaca's posts were all questions in determining how the game was going and questioning others. The craziest thing he said was in 304 where he stated that he claimed he was considered scum because he was behind Ploben.

Shadow first expressed his dislike in 231, but it was based on Alpaca's entry, which is fine, but one of the key words that stuck with me was the word "Passive." As in, not being active. As in, lurking. The insinuation is that because Alpaca is passive, he is flying underneath the radar.

He said "passively dismissing the case"

By being inactive.

No. No. No.
Passively dismissing the case re: the IC jokeclaim by calling it a Slayer's Gambit. It had nothing to do with inactivity.

[KuroiXHF]

Look at any two of my games. Very few of them are like each other.

[PantherPunt]

Look at any two of my games. Very few of them are like each other.

Reading Song of Ice and Fire..much more like here than that mini. You're not solving shit there. You're not solving shit here.

Where's that read list?