Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1-12

Leafeon and Glaceon

(3): Disaster Cartel, Nachomamma8, SirCakez

Nachomamma8

(3): Venus Fly Trap, Infinity 324, notscience

Disaster Cartel

(2): Salsabil Faria, Kismet

SirCakez

(1): Leafeon and Glaceon

notscience

(1): The Bulge

Not_Mafia

(1): Not_Mafia

Not Voting

(1): Momrangal

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline: April 26, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-04-25 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

Salsabil Farai is v/la until April 16
-

[Venus Fly Trap]

Maybe? I was the first to die so it was the longest for me

I do agree I’m just playing devils advocate. I still think scums game plan was to sac some people and powerbus but it’s really tricky when so many of the plist is good at standing out as town

Yeah i just looked, the last post is from 2/14, so two months now, which is a while

Ya. There really isnt super much room for scum to maneuver here tbh
Thinking abt it more i still think there's scum in nacho/sircakez, but i sont think its svs anymore, more tvs with nacho being the s

~ skitter

[notscience]

My quick five minute meta skim says angsty Cakez is town Cakez

[Kismet]

i'm kind of a sucker for posts like 713 too

i at least don't recall any nuance to cakez demeanor in W13 like during his pooky scumread

like iso cakez in that game, there is literally no semblance of reevaluation to suggest that pooky might not be scum for literally any reason ever whereas already he seems to be thinking this through even without much pressure from others

[Kismet]

kinda think that the differences between 500 and 522 can *potentially* be explained w/ hydra dissonance.
i have no way of proving this but i think it weakens the argument that l&g v infinity is any kind of planned read switcheroo

[Kismet]

kinda think that the differences between 500 and 522 can *potentially* be explained w/ hydra dissonance.
i have no way of proving this but i think it weakens the argument that l&g v infinity is any kind of planned read switcheroo

EBWOP: 523, not 522

[SirCakez]

Would [scum] go out of their way to discredit and deter someone with a high likelihood of scumreading them?

Would [towb] go out of their way to discredit and deter someone with a high likelihood of scumreading them?

Yes and no imo but this is heavily dependent on the player
(this question was at me I think? it's something I've talked about)

My big issue with Cakez’s vote there is how delayed it was. Like I feel like the action was very delayed with the thought and came across too slowly. Like he had to make two separate posts about it

I waited because I still wasn't totally sold on Nacho scum at that point.
To be devil's advocate - I can believe Nacho's anger because I really pissed him off in Popcorn Mafia

Bulge hasn’t done anything yet, I’m surprised Cakez is townreading him to be honest.

I liked him actually engaging when he was here

In my limited experience with bulge they're super obvtown as town and they're not that this game

I don't think this is true

[SirCakez]

I don't think I can ever think of a time where Bulge appeared obvious town and I have played with him as town semi-recently (we miselimmed him I think it was the Smoke-Filled game? he definitely was not obvious town there)

[Kismet]

i kinda agree w/ cakez; he was on the mislim list in illicit until he got cleared, but it was mostly activity related than bad content

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho why are we so low in your reads

-Mena

You're not low on my reads, necessarily - you just haven't done anything in order to separate yourselves from the people around you. I know that we've had similar reads that doesn't really serve as good evidence for you being town when we don't have flips.

[Nachomamma8]

Did anyone besides nacho think I was tunneling him?

I like this post - comes a bit out of the blue and serves to add a bit more nuance to her push on me (which was already decently developed).

[Nachomamma8]

nacho i think the convo for later for us is vft because that is likely to be where we have the most difference of opinion so far. i need to reread skitter's posts from today before i commit to that read as it was like 7:30am when i did initially, but i was very much a fan and her content is not all just centered around you.

I look forward to this. I know that I owe a full explanation on my VFT read; currently feels like I'm the only person that doesn't think they are the towniest towns who ever towned which is causing me to dig my heels in a bit more than I'd like to but I'd like to get that read sorted out quick so I can determine whether I'm being dumb or not.

[Nachomamma8]

I think due to the nature of this setup read lists are bad for town.
Mainly because scum want to eliminate themselves and you'd basically be directing them who to get rid of.


Mind games ect ect.
Town motivation ect ect.
Are both valid arguments against this though as I've had this discussion a few times, I haven't spoke to Mist about this at all.

~Glaceon

I hate that beeboy's entrance so far has mostly been theory-crafring. I don't give a fuck what you think of the advantages that reads lists give scum. I don't really think beeboy does either.

[notscience]

Another day another missed opportunity to chat with nacho

I’m still at work

[Nachomamma8]

420 and 422

I know these posts basically just agree with what Nacho said.
But I still town read it anyway, it feels like almost annoyed in a way?
Like "my read here is above average, I know its not perfect but that's good enough for me", like the way it's written just feels super town to me. As scum I feel like it would read more like someone who is simply just arguing semantics rather then what I am seeing here.

What does Mist think of your point here?

[Nachomamma8]

I don’t see how there’s any difference between the progressions nacho has had and my own

This defense seems intentionally obtuse (misses Kismet's original point pretty solidly) and also an odd response to being accused of not having progressions.

I don't understand what I have to do with any of this - if Mena thought Kismet's point was bad and he DID have solid progressions why not... just quote them...

[Nachomamma8]

This more comes down to my general mafia theory that people who are annoyed are > rand town while people who get mad are > rand scum. This is generally not always true so I never really explain this to people since there is 101 examples of mad town but honestly I find annoyed town is something that is relatively hard to find, and even then it sits on the line of someone who is mad. Which could come down to how I think people tend to react while trying to brainstorm vs trying to fool people. Idk, nor do I care about other peoples opinions on this because wording how I feel about the nuance of peoples emotions is incredibly hard.

I have zero understanding of the points that beeboy is trying to make here.

What value does this add the game? Is this really a townie who thinks that detailing the difference between annoyance and anger is useful or is it just a scum player who is struggling finding things to talk about?

[Nachomamma8]

Given that I can’t just be sheeping him bc of that, I find it weird that someone who’s coming to the game from a v similar viewpoint in many ways, he doesn’t see as town

Two pieces of my response here.

First, you'll find that no read that I make goes "I agree with his reads thus likelier to be town" nor "I disagree with his reads thus less likely to be town". I believe this just makes the confirmation bias problem worse - I don't know if my reads are right or wrong so for all I know I could be townreading the scumteam and trying to kill townies.

Second, this is an odd position for you to take with the "unknown quantity talk" about Kismet. I don't know what you're capable of scum or as town - I don't remember any games that we've played together so I don't have so much as a baseline for you. It will take me longer to form a solid read on you than it will for others, and, based on the conversation we had earlier, I'd expect you to understand that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm having a hard time articulating what I like about skitt beyond what I already have. Somehow I feel like her notsci read in 303 and her bork read in 479 would look different. She's also mindmelding with me on nacho

None of these are good reasons for VFT town.

[Nachomamma8]

this whole post is like trying to handwave away criticism while you yourself are acknowledging a few posts up that this isn't the way you typically play as town so like

My anger at Cakez is something that is one off and unique - the focus on it is misguided because it is something that is one off and unique. Whenever people do something outside of their range as a player it's pretty hard to then determine their alignment from it unless you know them intimately as people and neither bork or notsci know me that well.

I don't think your read on me has evolved. You've added to it over time with commenting vague thoughts on how my tone sucks or you hate my interactions with Cakez but there's nothing that shows nuance and there's not a point where it feels like you care what color that I flip.

[Nachomamma8]

this is kinda what i mean by 'icky' tone. tbf i wasn't in that game and don't know what beef you two have but this only makes sense as town to me if you have, like, some sort of major grudge against him to the point where you're still mad however many months later and his every post you just loathe and insta-scumread

which idk tbf i don't really know you either so for all i know this isn't abnormal but like from what i hear i'm having a hard time seeing you approach him that way as town

like here at least i dont' think he's done anything to deserve this level of animus so this whole post has this like prickly/aggressive edge which doesn't really match what's actually happened in this game, it looks like you're picking a fight almost and idk why.

You don't know me.
You don't know my play as town nor my play as scum.
You don't know my relationship with Cakez.

I am frustrated with Cakez in a way that I've never been frustrated with another player before - this is unusual for me. But just because you don't understand my emotions doesn't mean that they are bad or that I am scum.

You seem well aware in this paragraph that you don't have the experience with me where trying to hold these emotions make sense and yet you push me anyways - I think it is because you are scum.

[Nachomamma8]

right ... and i'm arguing that you're scum here
wrt the second line i'm not sure if you're trying to say 'i didn't try to get a policy flip on him (and that's something scum would do) so i'm not scum' or 'scum don't try to get policy flips and i did so i'm not scum'
but for the former it did read like you were trying to get a policy flip on him. with a whole lotta mechanical reasonign, sure, but that's fundmentally what it boiled down to
and for the latter scum try that all the time

Your point is that NM is lynch bait and I tried to get a lynch on him early - either to score a point or to kill a strong townie. My point is that this is a weak argument when policy lynches are uncommon and have a low % of success - there are reasons I would take that approach as scum to NM, but none of them would be because I was genuinely trying to lynch him.

The other point I am making is that I tried to push NM and the only person who backed me up was Mena, who has a history of doing so in JK9++ so is almost obligated to do so. If I am scum trying to get NM lynched, then I have four other people who could have backed me up but none of them did, which seems strange to me but maybe I'm the only one!

[Nachomamma8]

and i dont' see many other examples recently so fair enuf, you have a point in that it's not super common, but even so that doesn't make the push good
and i'm kinda more interested in the tone/cakez stuff now

And if this is the closest example that you can find then I think it proves my point.

I never said the push was good, but the idea that it was scummy because I was trying to kill lynchbait immediately/get my partner lynched so I can kill a scary townie is absurd; if I was genuinely trying to get NM killed as scum, my approach would be very different.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not confident in my ability to read cakez, but he feels pretty towny tbh

I'm starting to agree with this.

[Nachomamma8]

Thanks!

Mena is always concerned with how people read him and I think it might actually be towny

Why do you think this? As scum, it allows him to dig into what people don't like him and course correct - it also gives him a direct chance to change people's reads on him.