In post 724, Val89 wrote:I'll be honest, I don't consider fake claiming, semi-fake claiming or whatever it is you are trying to do here as town behaviour. Are you walking back your VT claim or not?
Why would I fake claim. I am obviously a VT claim if it isn't obvious enough. I wouldn't throw like that.
I just want to have fun while it lasts -- my progression and game theory will be eventually right. don't @ me post game
my vote might have already have been there, doesn't matter
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:06 pm
by alstroemerial
hahaha Zyla gosh you've missed an ongoing headache that makes yesterday look like nothing
Cook's vote was already there I think so that's not a hammer yet
Agree with Zyla's statement -- if you are town, Grandpa, it would be a lot easier to have a conversation if you'd slow down and condense your ideas a bit more
gotta backtrack through these new pages and try to figure out what on earth is happening now
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:13 pm
by Zyla
I want to clarify, that I'm not meaning that to be rude, I'd just personally suggest rereading your posts a couple of times, maybe even check spelling and grammar, not because those are necessary, but because rereading might help make sure your logic sounds like it would make sense to other people
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:14 pm
by Zyla
.... sorry for the run on sentence. I'm not the best at doing that while on my phone.
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:18 pm
by Cook
In post 731, Zyla wrote:When you make posts, do you usually just write what you're thinking and hit send?
Me? I summarize my thoughts and let the people with actually decent process of elimination do the thinking out loud
In post 731, Zyla wrote:When you make posts, do you usually just write what you're thinking and hit send?
Me? I summarize my thoughts and let the people with actually decent process of elimination do the thinking out loud
This is like... the LAMIST possible response to a question directed at someone else
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:29 pm
by alstroemerial
The juxtaposition of posts 684 and 685 are almost comical combined with whatever on earth happened with grandpa on page 29.
I'm going to consider Val's case on Norwee a bit more closely -- during that time, anyone can feel free to convince me not to hammer after I'm done
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:36 pm
by Val89
I think we are looking at scum!Grandpa now, and I may actually be eating my hat at some point in the next few days.
That said, we still have 4 days, and there might be some value in letting him flail some more. I'm sure this all supposed to be what scum!Grandpa called "200iq wifom" in his mafia pt last scum game he had, but it might be possible to draw some conclusions from what he did there and draw parallels to this game.
I have changed my mind in that I think it's more likley a red flip than a green flip now, but my concern that seeing this flip green gives us no real information still stands.
Going into the lim while I still have a straight up null read in Cook is also something I'm a little uneasy about.
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:59 pm
by T3
Grandpa is town for the reaction.
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:21 pm
by alstroemerial
TL;DR
I see the argument for Norwee, especially with James, but it's not jumping to my top SR or anything right now because I think a chunk of it could be written up as a different playstyle.
In post 251, NorwegianboyEE wrote:In post 249, Val89 wrote:
"He's town because he gives no shits about doing this things he says town should do, I'm an SE slot you newb so trust me." I ain't buying that.
Ok, newb.
This was the first thing to ping me. It seemed like we were having a productive conversation that was helping me sort what my case about James really was - it was genuinely helpful to me, but it was being helpful in strengthening my read rather than poke holes in it; and I think the second Norwee picked up I wasn't moving in the town!James direction, he drops it hard. It was written off later as a joke, which I buy, but you could substitute "Let's drop it then" for the joke, and that doesn't seem like something town would do.
I feel like when we (me + alstro) have disagreements on reads, we thrash it out, and even if we don't come to the same conclusion at the end, its been helpful. That seems like a more town approach than "if I can't convince you, let's drop it".
Whilst at the time I thought the whole thing was helpful, and Norwee was townleading for starting it, I think it retrospect Norwee just pegged me as a wordy guy, and bet on me not being able to summarise the case, in which case he could point to that and go "See, its crap". I note the initial target of that was Grandpa, whom strikes me as a person who was even less likely to be able to sum up the case concisely.[/spoiler]
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's
that
different from when you and I might disagree; it's just that you and I are wordier than NEE, like you allude to. Did it end on a bit of a sour note? Yeah, but like you said, eventually when two people disagree, there's eventually a point where you have to drop it, and maybe that was his way of jokingly going for it...?The conversation lasted awhile, so it wasn't like a total shut down. The "picked up I wasn't moving in the town direction and dropped it hard" thing could be the same as "we aren't going to agree right now so I'll drop it" also, no?
Spoiler: Case on Zyla
The case against Zyla also seemed a little forced. At the time, I agreed Zyla was one of my scumreads; and there has been a case made that Norwee is townleaning because they didn't immediately jump on James or Grandpa wagon; and instead tried to start something new again Zyla. Personally, I can see a world in which a scum!Norwee doesn't want to throw his lot in with the Grandpa wagon, which, at the time - was Zyla and James; and if James is is scum partner, and it's pretty clear I am leading the push against his scum buddy. Knowing my other SR is Zyla, and knowing they are going to flip green, he moves on that; not so much to start some new discussion overall, but to get ME to focus somewhere else; and he was pretty straightforward about it too.
The case he gives is, in retrospect, a little underwhelming too. First he takes issue with Zyla quickly switching over to Grandpa "when seeing no reaction from [her] "wanting no lim is scummy" vote on VFP." (#273); but isn't that exactly what he himself did? Saw the Zyla wagon wasn't taking off and switch to Grandpa?
Then there is the "trust tell" thing, which I don't buy. If fact, it seems like one of those 'buzzwordy' type cases that sound really strong he might be able to slip past the newbs, particularly as you [Alstro] expressed confusion on the point just before he joined. Reading into it, it amounts to nothing, and the fact noone else has ad anything to say makes me thing its obviously nothing, but he tried to sell it as if it was totally damning.
Yeah, out of the three you give, this is the one that I personally find the most compelling. The logic of the first paragraph makes sense especially from an SE, one replacing in who is trying to think of first impressions and maybe has input from a scumbuddy. I personally think the case is alright, but the potential motive for the case is noteworthy.
Spoiler: Drop it or you are scum
In post 581, NorwegianboyEE wrote:I don’t think James is scum here, but the extreme tenacity some slots have in continuing to keep that spark of hope that we lim James today alive is quite telling too. And i think you should know who i mean.
What do you make of this? There's nothing explicit here, but I read it as an implicit threat; and I think it's aimed at me. "You [Val] need to drop this James thing, else I'm going to start calling you scum". Nah, sorry, but telling someone who thinks they have scum in their sight they need to drop it doesn't read as town to me. By all means, attack the argument, say you disagree and why, and make your own case, but this sort of thing pings me as scummy.
Yes, this is definitely an implicit threat. The only people who have voted James at any point today are Zyla (RVS, so doesn't really mean much), you [Val], me, and Grandpa. But I haven't been pushing it that hard because to be fair I've been pretty indecisive. At least, Grandpa and Val have been pushing it more at different points earlier during the day. If James was a scum partner per your earlier theory in the Zyla chunk, this would likely be aimed at setting up for you, especially with how NEE eventually shifted over to Grandpa in the end.
On the other hand, this whole post could also just be taken as an implicit way of saying: "I think people who are pushing James are scummy because I think James is town and I'm not naming names", which is passive aggressive, yeah, and maybe a weak reason for reading, but it's kind of something?
All in all, I think there is a case for a {James, Norwee} pair, but there's one for a {James, VFP} pair too, and I don't have enough to say which I think is more likely yet. James is a strong read, but both Norwee and VFP are scumleans - here is some of the stuff that pinged me on Norwee, and I think the stuff that pinged me about VFP is obvious from the questions I posed above; but I don't think the case on either of them is anywhere near as conclusive as the stuff on James is.
I could see both of the above as possibilities.
I think something that also concerns me even more about NEE is the "I'm not reading any walls" take, which seems is scum-aligned at worst and lazy at best. But given the shorter postings, etc, I'm at this point comfortable chalking it up to different playstyle. In particular, I'm noticing that the newbies are more likely to wall and make long posts while the SEs are more likely to keep a short and sweet approach across the board.
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:24 pm
by alstroemerial
In post 742, T3 wrote:Grandpa is town for the reaction.
This feels silly, like
T3: Grandpa is town
Grandpa: Okay I changed my mind T3 is town now because they didn't hammer me also some meta
T3: Ok Grandpa is town even more
I agree with Grandpa's logic in the reaction, that not hammering at this point is something townie, but also, like, WIFOM at this point on anyone who was under suspicion who goes on to rush a hammer and doesn't, you know? And especially when you consider the meltdown that happened between Grandpa's reaction in 675 and T3's post in 742... I just don't follow the logic at all.
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:46 pm
by GrandpaMo
In post 741, Val89 wrote:I think we are looking at scum!Grandpa now, and I may actually be eating my hat at some point in the next few days.
That said, we still have 4 days, and there might be some value in letting him flail some more. I'm sure this all supposed to be what scum!Grandpa called "200iq wifom" in his mafia pt last scum game he had, but it might be possible to draw some conclusions from what he did there and draw parallels to this game.
I have changed my mind in that I think it's more likley a red flip than a green flip now, but my concern that seeing this flip green gives us no real information still stands.
Going into the lim while I still have a straight up null read in Cook is also something I'm a little uneasy about.
my vote might have already have been there, doesn't matter
damn i guess im hammered well gl town
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:46 pm
by GrandpaMo
i think it was best for town to just have vote me there
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:47 pm
by GrandpaMo
In post 741, Val89 wrote:I think we are looking at scum!Grandpa now, and I may actually be eating my hat at some point in the next few days.
That said, we still have 4 days, and there might be some value in letting him flail some more. I'm sure this all supposed to be what scum!Grandpa called "200iq wifom" in his mafia pt last scum game he had, but it might be possible to draw some conclusions from what he did there and draw parallels to this game.
I have changed my mind in that I think it's more likley a red flip than a green flip now, but my concern that seeing this flip green gives us no real information still stands.
Going into the lim while I still have a straight up null read in Cook is also something I'm a little uneasy about.
this looks like a straight omgus imo.
pls lim val tmr for this.
asap
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:48 pm
by GrandpaMo
after me scumcasing u on a weird ass bs context -- you pivot ur read as scum ? all that quick? when you have litearlly been pushing james as scum with me all game??
isn't the scummiest think you can do is that you flip the narrative.