Mafiascum.net

Yeah I'm sorry you're getting the brunt of the AtE this game and I say this as someone who has contributed

Just ignore

In post 7286, Gammagooey wrote:

petapan wrote:VOTE: NAY

this is my symbolic protest vote

Do you TRY to be a douchebag to everyone you think is scum?

Literally the ONLY THING I've asked for is to make sure Taly dies today, and if I am scum then both ydrasse and taly would have to be town

If Taly lives through this game it's going to be the most disappointing fucking game of the year for everyone involved except him

Yeah no you deserve to die after me. I can't imagine this being town ever.

Where did this narrative that I'm an absolute nightmare for the game's WIM came from? It's such a stark contrast from me being a huge game influence and thread health you characterized me in almost every post you made about me until the Heaven PT.

, I respect the fact that we have a very hot/cold dynamic this game because it feels so raw.

In post 7278, petapan wrote:taly i want to describe this for you, since you're the only one who cannot see it


in the blue room unwnd posted a read list for each room

typical stuff, just listing everyone's name

except

for the pink room, under the category section "null void"

he posts skitter (I guess)

he adds the parenthetical to exactly one person


i'm howling

I AM WEAK LOL

petapan wrote:man i'm actually fucking mad now that you chose to pull that card

you saw the shit i got put through this game and you're calling me a douchebag for how

I

play

do you have any idea how poorly that comes across?

Maybe you can read what I said back post-game, still probably being angry, and think about the fact that I meant it. It probably is an overreaction to that post in particular, but I do fucking mean it.

This is not me being angry at you for calling me scum, this is the equivalent of me at a bar pulling you aside and asking you why you're acting this way to everyone there.

To be diplomatic, I'll say that I also would prefer not to play with Harley Quinn again. But you're treating people like mafia/scum first instead of showing some damn empathy and trying to understand where other players are coming from as PEOPLE, not as their alignment, and it's fucking stupid.

I would rather play a 50 page game that was light and jokey and fun in but lost than deal with a game that was 250/300+ pages and win. Maybe you've noticed, but today has largely stopped being fun for me. I would have been super happy to talk to you or Gemerald or even Taly in the Heaven PT about who ya'll were suspecting then and take that into account when I got to do *ruler stuff*, but instead it was 3 pages long with me being the only person who actually talked about who potential scum in the PT could be, and today has been every single player in the game dismissing my strongest read because they're probably going to die in the event already. And now there's what, a dozen pages or so of me feeling ignored and generally shat on for my choice after the fact instead.

I can deal with that, but let me tell you, it's not fun. I'm obv not thrilled about Taly/you thinking I'm scum, but it's a mafia game, if you can't deal with that you shouldn't play mafia.

I've read over your quotewall posts peta, and I've responded to the pieces I thought I could add meaningingfully to. You've posted I think about or over TWO HUNDRED times since the start of this event with absolute fucking walls of quotes that I've already read through earlier in the game. I do not want to spend hours of my life that could be spent actually enjoying myself going through them further and dissecting the individual points where I think you're being reasonable and the other points I don't agree with and have no/little change in either the game-state or in my opinions on the remaining players. If you have/had concise parts that you wanted my comments in particular on then I can do that, as I've said to The Worst already. If not, then say whatever you want people to read, let the worst catch up and share any opinions he wants to air, and then let's move on. I offered to replace into this game to try to make the game better and enjoy the events - both of those goals are largely not happening at this point, I'm not going to participate in the game to a level anywhere close to yours when it's not fun to play in.

And finally, MAYBE you've also noticed that I've tried to keep everything light and tried to be diplomatic with people even when I think they're scum and/or when they're scumreading me. I don't want to deal with other people's emotional outbursts, I don't particularly like getting overly emotional about the game myself. All I fucking want is an game where people can enjoy talking to each other and have fun and consider each others opinions EVEN if they think the other person is scum, and you've been the cause of three replacements so far. (maybe like...2.2 if we factor in how likely HQ was going to replace out in that situation even with another randomized playerlist) Don't call people a "fucking slimeball" if you're going to get legitimately angry when someone says you're acting like a douchebag. I'm tired of the game, I'm tired of you expecting me to be as invested in it as much as you given the game-state, and I'm tired of your behavior this game making it less fun for multiple people. Just treat people better in future games, and if/when you do wind up elim'ing me or the game ends I'd rather you consider why I felt this way instead of just complaining about my shitty play.

Ok, i vote no on this, .

If you want to talk about and his interactions this game then take it up with him post game. Otherwise, I'm assuming this is AtE directed at him voting to save me.

I don't think it's fair for you to take his vote in any context other than a game one nor do I think it's healthy for you to blame him for 3 rep outs. Those rep outs were solely on the people who rep'ed out and we should never make assumptions like this in or out if the game because it is not our business.

And I feel it's a misrepresentation to tell him that nobody in the PT was willing to speak game with you because I certainly was and actually did. I've even made posts directed to you THIS EVENT that wasn't solely trying to disdredit your POV and wanted to dissect your thought process more and you've yet to interact with it or any interpretation of my gameplay that has been in good faith.

Like no I'm weary of being the pin cushion for emotional outbursts this game, leave the man alone. I don't remember a post where he's even insulted someone and he has justified why he feels his approach to these situations is sound.

If you don't agree with it, don't conflate it with his game decisions because that's not how he's operating here.

If you feel wrongly ignored or put down then you should air what can be done about it so we can help or you take a break from the thread.

In post 7306, Taly wrote: And I feel it's a misrepresentation to tell him that nobody in the PT was willing to speak game with you because I certainly was and actually did. I've even made posts directed to you THIS EVENT that wasn't solely trying to disdredit your POV and wanted to dissect your thought process more and you've yet to interact with it or any interpretation of my gameplay that has been in good faith.

In Heaven PT, We talked about why you said you weren't scum, and briefly discussed interactions with Dunn you thought might make me reconsider my read on you like pushing for Dunn/Cakez and why Dunn wasn't 'concreteted in uselessness' as I mentioned, and you asked Gemerald why he wanted you to be the ruler. I guess you also mentioned that you didn't trust Gemerald's perception day 1? Basically all of it I just processed as "Taly defending himself". I guess I should have either gone into more detail on why I thought you could be potential scum then when you mentioned that you didn't see evidence contradicted TA/Cakez scum or gone over more people than just you, but I did mention multiple times that yeah I did think TA is going to flip scum no matter what and I did think Cakez had a strong chance of being scum.

For today, I could have more thoroughly responded to a few things (I'll go over the Pink PT thoughts in a minute, I remember you mentioning that in particular), but honestly how and why are you expecting me to go through and respond to all of your posts when you've also flooded the thread and have nearly THREE HUNDRED posts this event? Literally more than twice the number I have THE ENTIRE GAME SO FAR? I've even asked you a couple of things that would up getting ignored on your end too like why you didn't follow through on your Cakez read on the crossing (though I did forget about it and then feel like an idiot when I realized you were talking about potentially going over it later as opposed to thinking you were conflating it with another thing being talked about at the time).
I'd also like to know why you seemed to stop mentioning/pushing your previous scum read on skitter for the crossing event.
And for what, the 4th time I've said this to different people? If you want me to respond to one of your posts, @me with what you want me to respond to so I don't have to dig through literally hundreds of posts to find it. Don't make a train of shitposts about my play and then expect me to find exactly what you want an actual response to in the middle of it instead of me shrugging it off as "ok Taly's spamposting about me being scum again". I feel like that at least is a reasonable ask.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the Pink PT, I thought you were likely pretty influential there for a couple of reasons. First, you were pretty clearly the one of, if not the most active player(s) in the game thread before it split into PTs. That alone meant that you were likely to be a major part of the conversation there and your reads and opinions that you put forward there would get at least seriously discussed, unlike say Toog who I thought was likely to post like 4 times in there and for other people to likely gloss over his reads. Second, basically everyone at least commented about the Pink PT, even if they didn't go into detail, and all of them seemed to either think Saber was scum OR have a positive opinion of you - infinity+skitter both said they wanted saber, and you initially said that skitter campaigned for it (and I quoted this before), dwlee talked about how you and him pocketed each other in there, you said that Toog was willing to sheep either of skitter or you, and that only leaves Ulya as *not enamored with Taly but also didn't want Saber lynched*, and she commented on how she wanted Cakez and could have had it if you had joined her on that (and that you could have had any wagon you wanted that had an existing vote):

In post 3545, ulyana wrote:

In post 3535, Taly wrote:I was the only person who actively campaigned for Cakez, Ulya made the vote later in the phase but peta[/n] had seniority by this point if I remember correctly.

? the vote that ended up being seniority vote for petapan was placed by toogeloo sometime after i voted for sircakez, when i voted sircakez you were voting ydrasse but shortly thereafter unvoted, had you actually wanted sircakez and voted there at this time sircakez would have been the nomination,

so

?

In post 3562, ulyana wrote:

In post 3560, Taly wrote:

In post 3552, Taly wrote:

In post 3546, skitter30 wrote:Yeah also i dont remember taly wanting cakez, he was pushing ydra a whole lot

Because I didn't know

Cakez

had any traction until

Ulya's

vote.

And by that point, I had already aligned with

Dwlee's

POV of the game more and wanted to consolidate there.

Also I misinterpreted what seniority meant.

Thought

Ydra

was still going to be the nom.

you were one of the two votes on ydrasse so moving to any other wagon with an existing vote would have always given that wagon the edge

If you had wanted Saber, or even been ambivalent on Saber, I think it's pretty clear from that it could have happened just from Skitter+Infinity+Toog, since Toog was willing to sheep either you or skitter from your post about him.

My interpretation of this post from you was that skitter was actively pushing for Saber to be put up, and that you in particular requested that Saber not be the nomination for that event. Apparently infinity was actually pushing it harder than skitter, but I thought skitter was pushing it hardest from your post, and that you stepping in to prevent a scum from bussing another was very likely to come from you as a skitter/saber scumbuddy.

In post 3535, Taly wrote:

In post 3533, Gamma Emerald wrote:Who in the pink room wanted Cakez or saber
Atp the best theory I can reconcile is that scum are basically all low-impact

I was the only person who actively campaigned for

Cakez

,

Ulya

made the vote later in the phase but

peta[/n] had seniority by this point if I remember correctly.

Most of everyone was OK with a

Saber

nom,

Skitter

personally campaigning for it. But I wanted to sort

Saber

directly this phase.

In post 7309, Gammagooey wrote:

In post 7306, Taly wrote: And I feel it's a misrepresentation to tell him that nobody in the PT was willing to speak game with you because I certainly was and actually did. I've even made posts directed to you THIS EVENT that wasn't solely trying to disdredit your POV and wanted to dissect your thought process more and you've yet to interact with it or any interpretation of my gameplay that has been in good faith.

In Heaven PT, We talked about why you said you weren't scum, and briefly discussed interactions with Dunn you thought might make me reconsider my read on you like pushing for Dunn/Cakez and why Dunn wasn't 'concreteted in uselessness' as I mentioned, and you asked Gemerald why he wanted you to be the ruler. I guess you also mentioned that you didn't trust Gemerald's perception day 1? Basically all of it I just processed as "Taly defending himself". I guess I should have either gone into more detail on why I thought you could be potential scum then when you mentioned that you didn't see evidence contradicted TA/Cakez scum or gone over more people than just you, but I did mention multiple times that yeah I did think TA is going to flip scum no matter what and I did think Cakez had a strong chance of being scum.

Yeah, I didn't trust viewpoint in D1 because I voted them for the chair under the idea that they were scum who would likely die from the event.

And I don't understand why you process my Heaven PT play as a defense - do you still think so?

In post 7309, Gammagooey wrote:

In post 7306, Taly wrote:For today, I could have more thoroughly responded to a few things (I'll go over the Pink PT thoughts in a minute, I remember you mentioning that in particular), but honestly how and why are you expecting me to go through and respond to all of your posts when you've also flooded the thread and have nearly THREE HUNDRED posts this event? Literally more than twice the number I have THE ENTIRE GAME SO FAR? I've even asked you a couple of things that would up getting ignored on your end too like why you didn't follow through on your Cakez read on the crossing (though I did forget about it and then feel like an idiot when I realized you were talking about potentially going over it later as opposed to thinking you were conflating it with another thing being talked about at the time).

Requote the posts I missed?

was someone I had difficulty reading because I couldn't tell the difference between them TMI'ing a read on me over actively solving popular slots, I couldn't tell whether was genuinely trying to mislim or had a tell on her because he 1v1/tunneled with her, and I didn't like replies to either me in Event 4 or in Event 2.

I figured the townreads on him were likelier misled and so I resisted his crossing and since I believed contained 1 scum maximum, I felt that he was the deepest wolf.

In post 7309, Gammagooey wrote:

In post 7306, Taly wrote:I'd also like to know why you seemed to stop mentioning/pushing your previous scum read on skitter for the crossing event.
And for what, the 4th time I've said this to different people? If you want me to respond to one of your posts, @me with what you want me to respond to so I don't have to dig through literally hundreds of posts to find it. Don't make a train of shitposts about my play and then expect me to find exactly what you want an actual response to in the middle of it instead of me shrugging it off as "ok Taly's spamposting about me being scum again". I feel like that at least is a reasonable ask.

Noted. 7136 was a question directed to you.

In post 7309, Gammagooey wrote:For the Pink PT, I thought you were likely pretty influential there for a couple of reasons. First, you were pretty clearly the one of, if not the most active player(s) in the game thread before it split into PTs. That alone meant that you were likely to be a major part of the conversation there and your reads and opinions that you put forward there would get at least seriously discussed, unlike say Toog who I thought was likely to post like 4 times in there and for other people to likely gloss over his reads. Second, basically everyone at least commented about the Pink PT, even if they didn't go into detail, and all of them seemed to either think Saber was scum OR have a positive opinion of you - infinity+skitter both said they wanted saber, and you initially said that skitter campaigned for it (and I quoted this before), dwlee talked about how you and him pocketed each other in there, you said that Toog was willing to sheep either of skitter or you, and that only leaves Ulya as *not enamored with Taly but also didn't want Saber lynched*, and she commented on how she wanted Cakez and could have had it if you had joined her on that (and that you could have had any wagon you wanted that had an existing vote):

In post 3545, ulyana wrote:

In post 3535, Taly wrote:I was the only person who actively campaigned for Cakez, Ulya made the vote later in the phase but peta[/n] had seniority by this point if I remember correctly.

? the vote that ended up being seniority vote for petapan was placed by toogeloo sometime after i voted for sircakez, when i voted sircakez you were voting ydrasse but shortly thereafter unvoted, had you actually wanted sircakez and voted there at this time sircakez would have been the nomination,

so

?

In post 3562, ulyana wrote:

In post 3560, Taly wrote:

In post 3552, Taly wrote:

In post 3546, skitter30 wrote:Yeah also i dont remember taly wanting cakez, he was pushing ydra a whole lot

Because I didn't know

Cakez

had any traction until

Ulya's

vote.

And by that point, I had already aligned with

Dwlee's

POV of the game more and wanted to consolidate there.

Also I misinterpreted what seniority meant.

Thought

Ydra

was still going to be the nom.

you were one of the two votes on ydrasse so moving to any other wagon with an existing vote would have always given that wagon the edge

If you had wanted Saber, or even been ambivalent on Saber, I think it's pretty clear from that it could have happened just from Skitter+Infinity+Toog, since Toog was willing to sheep either you or skitter from your post about him.

My interpretation of this post from you was that skitter was actively pushing for Saber to be put up, and that you in particular requested that Saber not be the nomination for that event. Apparently infinity was actually pushing it harder than skitter, but I thought skitter was pushing it hardest from your post, and that you stepping in to prevent a scum from bussing another was very likely to come from you as a skitter/saber scumbuddy.

In post 3535, Taly wrote:

In post 3533, Gamma Emerald wrote:Who in the pink room wanted Cakez or saber
Atp the best theory I can reconcile is that scum are basically all low-impact

I was the only person who actively campaigned for

Cakez

,

Ulya

made the vote later in the phase but

peta[/n] had seniority by this point if I remember correctly.

Most of everyone was OK with a

Saber

nom,

Skitter

personally campaigning for it. But I wanted to sort

Saber

directly this phase.

No, I disagree with both the assertion that the Pink PT had a net positive view of me or the idea that everyone in the PT was absolutely set on -scum outside of who voteparked throughout the PT.



And what did she do with this?



It reads perfectly like she TMI'd you and .

In post 7305, Gammagooey wrote:

petapan wrote:man i'm actually fucking mad now that you chose to pull that card

you saw the shit i got put through this game and you're calling me a douchebag for how

I

play

do you have any idea how poorly that comes across?

Maybe you can read what I said back post-game, still probably being angry, and think about the fact that I meant it. It probably is an overreaction to that post in particular, but I do fucking mean it.

This is not me being angry at you for calling me scum, this is the equivalent of me at a bar pulling you aside and asking you why you're acting this way to everyone there.

To be diplomatic, I'll say that I also would prefer not to play with Harley Quinn again. But you're treating people like mafia/scum first instead of showing some damn empathy and trying to understand where other players are coming from as PEOPLE, not as their alignment, and it's fucking stupid.

I would rather play a 50 page game that was light and jokey and fun in but lost than deal with a game that was 250/300+ pages and win. Maybe you've noticed, but today has largely stopped being fun for me. I would have been super happy to talk to you or Gemerald or even Taly in the Heaven PT about who ya'll were suspecting then and take that into account when I got to do *ruler stuff*, but instead it was 3 pages long with me being the only person who actually talked about who potential scum in the PT could be, and today has been every single player in the game dismissing my strongest read because they're probably going to die in the event already. And now there's what, a dozen pages or so of me feeling ignored and generally shat on for my choice after the fact instead.

I can deal with that, but let me tell you, it's not fun. I'm obv not thrilled about Taly/you thinking I'm scum, but it's a mafia game, if you can't deal with that you shouldn't play mafia.

I've read over your quotewall posts peta, and I've responded to the pieces I thought I could add meaningingfully to. You've posted I think about or over TWO HUNDRED times since the start of this event with absolute fucking walls of quotes that I've already read through earlier in the game. I do not want to spend hours of my life that could be spent actually enjoying myself going through them further and dissecting the individual points where I think you're being reasonable and the other points I don't agree with and have no/little change in either the game-state or in my opinions on the remaining players. If you have/had concise parts that you wanted my comments in particular on then I can do that, as I've said to The Worst already. If not, then say whatever you want people to read, let the worst catch up and share any opinions he wants to air, and then let's move on. I offered to replace into this game to try to make the game better and enjoy the events - both of those goals are largely not happening at this point, I'm not going to participate in the game to a level anywhere close to yours when it's not fun to play in.

And finally, MAYBE you've also noticed that I've tried to keep everything light and tried to be diplomatic with people even when I think they're scum and/or when they're scumreading me. I don't want to deal with other people's emotional outbursts, I don't particularly like getting overly emotional about the game myself. All I fucking want is an game where people can enjoy talking to each other and have fun and consider each others opinions EVEN if they think the other person is scum, and you've been the cause of three replacements so far. (maybe like...2.2 if we factor in how likely HQ was going to replace out in that situation even with another randomized playerlist) Don't call people a "fucking slimeball" if you're going to get legitimately angry when someone says you're acting like a douchebag. I'm tired of the game, I'm tired of you expecting me to be as invested in it as much as you given the game-state, and I'm tired of your behavior this game making it less fun for multiple people. Just treat people better in future games, and if/when you do wind up elim'ing me or the game ends I'd rather you consider why I felt this way instead of just complaining about my shitty play.

cool

mid-way in the PT was like and even was like

and only stopped vaguely shading me later after the Pink PT when I refrained from actively pressuring or sus'ing her.

i want to type a response to that that is diplomatic and respectful, but i don't think i can. i am livid. you have been absurdly insulting to me just now and it is incredibly disappointing. anything i want to say right now is incredibly harsh, so i'll just step away for now.

Like, the idea that has just bussed this game rings true on the surface but that's not quite what her Event 1 or Event 4 play could've been motivated by.

petapan wrote:i want to type a response to that that is diplomatic and respectful, but i don't think i can. i am livid. you have been absurdly insulting to me just now and it is incredibly disappointing. anything i want to say right now is incredibly harsh, so i'll just step away for now.

if you want to redirect your attention to game, reading the last paragraph of my latest reply and these votes cold help.

posts could help*

In post 7300, Taly wrote:Yeah I'm sorry you're getting the brunt of the AtE this game

Peta

and I say this as someone who has contributed

Just ignore

Ggy

i mean even with you i was mostly just bewildered/frustrated because like, i wanted you to be able to talk and you were just weird about it

In post 7303, Taly wrote:

Peta

, I respect the fact that we have a very hot/cold dynamic this game because it feels so raw.

it's certainly been a ride

sorry if i inadvertently came off as brusque/dismissive toward you, it's...

we have different ways of thinking and there was a of evidence to go through, i was hung up on some not so good reasons. which often happens. but i did, eventually, go back and reread and check everything. and i think just by being able to have some conversation we worked things out? theres always the stress of endgames because people are going to have differing perspectives they feel strongly about but i think weve been working okay

In post 7310, Taly wrote:No, I disagree with both the assertion that the Pink PT had a net positive view of me or the idea that everyone in the PT was absolutely set on Saber-scum outside of Infinity who voteparked throughout the PT.

Skitter entered the Pink PT with THIS being her hierarchy of least wanting to vote to MOST.
Gamma --> Cakez --> Ydrasse --> Gypyx --> Saber --> peta --> UNWND

And what did she do with this?

She contested my Ydrasse-case, said she wouldn't vote Cakez despite AGREEING that I believed Cakez/unwnd was T/S, and she voted Peta mid-way into the PT and didn't move her vote at all.

It reads perfectly like she TMI'd you and Saber.

yeah uh wow lmao

i know she was putting her preference at me and those two but i didn't know it was THAT order

In post 7316, petapan wrote:

In post 7300, Taly wrote:Yeah I'm sorry you're getting the brunt of the AtE this game

Peta

and I say this as someone who has contributed

Just ignore

Ggy

i mean even with you i was mostly just bewildered/frustrated because like, i wanted you to be able to talk and you were just weird about it

In post 7303, Taly wrote:

Peta

, I respect the fact that we have a very hot/cold dynamic this game because it feels so raw.

it's certainly been a ride

sorry if i inadvertently came off as brusque/dismissive toward you, it's...

we have different ways of thinking and there was a

lot

of evidence to go through, i was hung up on some not so good reasons. which often happens. but i did, eventually, go back and reread and check everything. and i think just by being able to have some conversation we worked things out? theres always the stress of endgames because people are going to have differing perspectives they feel strongly about but i think weve been working okay

For greater context on my mind at the time:

In post 6818, Taly wrote:I'm not frustrated anymore, I am sad and struggling to regulate it.

This was my last post as a living slot this game. The second I accepted that I was going to be eliminated I started to thinking more like this again a few posts later:

In post 6825, Taly wrote:Peta, what do you think is more likely?

Gamma-scum wanted to kill off potential mislim Galron and scum stopped this to protect themselves. It could be inferred that Galron was a framing, if Gamma is scum here, but why wasn't that a point of discussion in the duel?

Or

Gamma-town was right in the ballpark of susaing a lot of slots that scum both wanted to kingmake, but they felt a sabotage would be the most effective way at protecting them?

So truly , I feel I was largely the source of our conflict because I couldn't reconcile my ego and the gamestate. And I am sorry for overstepping your boundaries here.

In post 7317, petapan wrote:

In post 7310, Taly wrote:No, I disagree with both the assertion that the Pink PT had a net positive view of me or the idea that everyone in the PT was absolutely set on Saber-scum outside of Infinity who voteparked throughout the PT.

Skitter entered the Pink PT with THIS being her hierarchy of least wanting to vote to MOST.
Gamma --> Cakez --> Ydrasse --> Gypyx --> Saber --> peta --> UNWND

And what did she do with this?

She contested my Ydrasse-case, said she wouldn't vote Cakez despite AGREEING that I believed Cakez/unwnd was T/S, and she voted Peta mid-way into the PT and didn't move her vote at all.

It reads perfectly like she TMI'd you and Saber.

yeah uh wow lmao

i know she was putting her preference at me and those two but i didn't know it was THAT order

yeah haha, i should probably have led this event phase with this argument lmao

peppermint anyone? can i interest anyone in a peppermint?

my big hangup was knowing that she wouldn't WANT to just throw her whole team under the bus and prefers to win earlier rather than later. a day 1 hardbus would have been shocking and surprising based on that.

but reviewing the history in old games and the records in this game tells a very different story.

In post 7318, Taly wrote:So truly Peta, I feel I was largely the source of our conflict because I couldn't reconcile my ego and the gamestate. And I am sorry for overstepping your boundaries here.

its ok

its understandable

getting mislimmed sucks and the blame falls partly on me for having been lazy in event eight (which very nearly could have cost the game)

but its worth understanding that the whole structure of this game has been unfair by design and that has led us into some objectionable kills

In post 7320, Ydrasse wrote:peppermint anyone? can i interest anyone in a peppermint?

i'll take one

.