Mini 2167: Illicit Substances Mafia (Game Over!)

[Remilia Scarlet]

I think I’m actually down to kill Secret Tunnel. In a townMorph world, which I can see, ST just seems like they kinda have to be scum based on where the game stalls at.

We’re unclownable.

-innocentvillager

kinda wrote this slot off at several points due to stuff like this and thought this was a PR soft

[Remilia Scarlet]

Both?

Neither you nor Bork wants muffin and I am still really flimsy on it. So I’m not shoving him

You guys and Bork I’ve been townreading all game and bulge is town by play and by April who I think is also town now

I felt bell was town earlier and same for the bear

this post seemed kinda town to me when i read it

[morph the cat]

(We didn't abandon you, we're food-telling)

[Remilia Scarlet]

ST's progression on muffin seems ok to me. I think they're always like on the periphery of elim-pool but not in an opportunistic way

see 7164, 7168, 7170

[morph the cat]

I think I’m actually down to kill Secret Tunnel. In a townMorph world, which I can see, ST just seems like they kinda have to be scum based on where the game stalls at.

We’re unclownable.

-innocentvillager

kinda wrote this slot off at several points due to stuff like this and thought this was a PR soft

I wasn't sure about innocentvillager feeling that way, but thought he might be channeling notsci who used to (and still appears to) be pretty confident about obvtowning in games with players who know him. even though I wasn't really buying it at the time, he made noise several times about becoming unclownable before the end of day 1.

[Remilia Scarlet]

i may have a limited shelf life tonight but i'll try to collect my thoughts a little bit when I have a larger block of time tomorrow

realistically ST/Bell is where I'm putting most of my effort today; I'll review muffin but like i don't even have a baseline of what's scummy about what other people are seeing in him atm other than he's being
(characteristically) passive in an ivory-tower kind of way (this is mostly aimed at ST, i know morph isn't really looking here either)

thinking more about what to do w/ morph: every time i latch onto something i think is weird here my opinion is just completely changed maximum of three pages later. I think I'm just going to throw morph into the townbin and just hope i don't have to deal w/ that ever again

if i get weird just point me at this post

[Remilia Scarlet]

UNVOTE:

[morph the cat]

Rereading innocentvillager's muffin wall, I think that post would bug me if notsci weren't in ST with him. Not so much the observations as the tone and style. Which is a stupid thing to be keying off with a player I don't know.

[morph the cat]

realistically ST/Bell is where I'm putting most of my effort today; I'll review muffin but like i don't even have a baseline of what's scummy about what other people are seeing in him atm other than he's being
(characteristically) passive in an ivory-tower kind of way (this is mostly aimed at ST, i know morph isn't really looking here either)

You're kinda wrong here.

It's going to be absolute hell trying to document a scumcase if we decide we need to because of how comfortably zmuffin's scum game lives inside his town game.

[Remilia Scarlet]

It's going to be absolute hell trying to document a scumcase if we decide we need to because of how comfortably zmuffin's scum game lives inside his town game.

i mean i'll keep that in mind but i feel like there are places in this game all muffin had to do is

nothing

and it would've probably turned out better for scum than the state we're currently in
i'll try to qualify that

[morph the cat]

It's going to be absolute hell trying to document a scumcase if we decide we need to because of how comfortably zmuffin's scum game lives inside his town game.

i mean i'll keep that in mind but i feel like there are places in this game all muffin had to do is

nothing

and it would've probably turned out better for scum than the state we're currently in
i'll try to qualify that

If you could humor us, do you mind citing those examples, even if it's from the top of your head?

[Remilia Scarlet]

progression starting in 6861 culminating in the conclusion in 6919 was the specific thing i was recalling from memory

[Bell]

Spoiler: Morph and Bell Neighborhood

I apologize for the tone.

Town Rem:

There are no hints or emotions in his initial posts that indicate he rolled scum and is sad about it!

#108: Gif absolutely isn't compensating for something like a red rolePM. He just needs to start the engine.
#109: Go easy on me guys. I've had some bad experiences recently so be gentle! [not, oh shit I rolled scum and now I need to get into a groove but I hope people don't notice me adjusting to remember how to be scum if I ever remembered how to be scum! Maybe I should just ask people to keep their expectations low so they don't think I'm suspicious, that's not suspicious, right?]
#113: Sounds sort of like honest town! Bork see thing, Bork say thing.
#125: ? um. I got nothing.
#140: This isn't, oh god don't think I'm scum don't think I'm scum say something anything bork, associations? Associations. This me being cool town, look I won't even add punctuation to the end. That's how cool I am.
#146: Town bork see something, town bork say something even if he can't quite articulate it.
#147: This isn't scum bork wiping sweat from dodging a bullet.This is town bork saying how dumb would it be if he thought that it was AI!.
#171: He correctly identified the problem, joyed not saying much, but didn't reach the conclusion that this might be scummy. This isn't uncommon. The signal to noise isn't the word I'd use but it is early game and that's not super suspicious and reasonable Bork may just be being reasonable.
#198 Town curiosity Bork.
#208: This seems like a pretty good reason to me.
#358: A little double standardy with the hydra complaints from Joyed but this isn't strange to me.
#361: This is a lot of scum pings to be throwing out at a lot of confirmed town. early game, when it might serve scum Rem better not to give so many players a hard time, even though he adds caveats and timers to these, which could be to ramp up pressure in RVS or merely . But then he doubles back and scum reads Joyed. Which I feel would be sort of the opposite of the natural direction to take? It depends on game state which I can't fully recall.
#364: This is an emotional honest reaction to Morph's early play and not either a) I'm genuinely relieved you are leaving me alone, I have cleared stage 1 of my survive morph strategy *fist pump* b) I'm not accidentally vaguely insinuating knowing more about what you're doing as town because I know you're town.
#378: Dreams aren't real bucko. But maybe he just edited the dreams and thought showing emotional vulnerability would be a pretty good way of helping us see town bork and not laughing at himself, in thread, about being in that exact scenario. I'm also not totally sure he makes this post and then deletes it as scum when town him is okay sharing that.
#405: Honest Bork giving us his honest opinion, there must have been a gun to his head for him to squeeze this one out and it's not due to scumhesitation. Maybe.
#407: Not a soft ball. It's a good Q. It just happens to be scum explaining why this town person is town and not scum asking scum to elaborate because scum don't talk to each other. Okay? Okay.
#608: More town bork see stuff, town bork say stuff. Though from a mere, wtf he has almost thrown a scum ping at the entire town and town read MWB and "I don't see it" null read Joyed. This goes back to the issue of whether he would play in reverse to how I might play it, where I scum read scum and find reasons not to vote them. I'm kinda bussy.
#617: This is a lot of gumption for scum.
#633: This is

definitely

not busy work and destroying team assumptions because he's run out of people to scum read that aren't his team. TBSS, TBSS.
#651: That's some hard defending of MWB for scum to take. I would be a little leery of doing this as scum. If he's scum or town It kind of feels like he's found his groove. What are the odds he scum reads all the town and town reads all the scum? Just on basic principle and would that change the math any? I've run into examples of town players doing exactly this and it's not like his reads don't evolve (sort of) or develop.
682: My initial impression is that this is pro-social. Which I associate a little with being protown ~ town. It's unclear to me if he would do this as one alignment but not the other. See MWB being upset that the April/Morph interaction resolved as game identifying game/ town identifying town when he hoped it would fester.
#875: This is exactly the kind of farsighted stuff GIF likes to do as scum down the line. But this is Bork town time section (though really a mix) and therefore gif town time section and so I shall say thus: OKAY.
#912: So blunt and forward! So townie! TBSS, TBSS. This tune changed some day 2 or 3 where he did a different tack. More posts like this and I wouldn't be leaning scum on him.
#917: Engaged townie making engaged questions toward Alisae and not: a+b) asking questions that lead nowhere. Looking for opportunities.
#921: if scum, on a roll/feelin' it.
#1281: Seems like a natural turn rather than a fake one on Joyed. And he gives a town read to town April (who he had not directly commented on, alighment wise) until this post in
#1282: Reversal on Tunnel, into a town read. I'm not sure if this makes sense from scum bork. He officially just gave 2 town reads, 1 light town read on MWB much earlier and flipped his joyed approach in a few posts. I'm having difficulty parsing these posts from either town or scum Bork.
#1289: Now a total reversal, after throwing some suspicion at people he town reads half the game. Puts midway directly in the middle (lol). His response to Joyed seems fairly natural here.
#1292: Towncurious or scum-wait-and-see.
#1300: good vote.








He guts scum reads Joyed which he probably wouldn't do as scum. Pushing and voting him multiple times for gut reasons before bouncing off of him twice because he lacks conviction like all good townies do when they're honest with themselves.

He soft counter claims 420, because people aren't believing him when he said he has a good reason for suspecting they both can't be in the set up together. Ultimately, he's incorrect but he won't be the first or the last town member to think "that doesn't make sense with my role, he's probably scum!" any annoyance he had at his role being revealed and then 420 not being flipped is just hidden well because he's a good person/forgot.

His agitation is related to his pet peeves about things like meta and he doesn't like being pushed as town and he wasn't faking that. I don't know how scum bork reacts to being pushed tho.If he's just like, well that's how I be as town, so that's how I gotta be as scum. Then maybe it explains the snap. On the other hand, I've had a lot of emotional reactions to others play recently and I think I might be a little too judgmental, oh well~.

It's just a coincidence he started out the game or maybe even points away from scum him in that he soft defends both scum by either not seeing the problem with their posts or challenging another player on an accusation. I don't think it's out of place for this to happen early game as town Bork. Or at least, not terribly out of place.

His innocuous interactions with MWB aren't due to being scum partners but from not knowing each other. Or a first impressions issue.

His read on muffin reads strange to me. However I need to think about it until I can put a pattern around it. So far, no pattern has occurred that seems like a convincing reason to town read muffin and it feels fairly off in a way I don't understand. Perhaps it's simply because of how he words it so vaguely as gut, ohhh. I see it just doesn't feel like he's progressed on his muffin read in a natural fashion. It's not being more developed or nuanced or changing. He reiterates his reads when Muffin does something he thinks is townie, but he doesn't directly comment on why he thinks it's townie in a engaged manner. There's a general distance between Muffin and Bork that I don't really understand.

Okay I'm done for now. I'm tired. If you think I can fake this kind of thinking well, thanks for the vote of confidence.

[morph the cat]

Thanks. I'll read and grok tonight... maybe in the morning, unsure yet.

[Bell]

I wouldn't bother.
I could have done better. Just as I was parsing and giving up on writing more for now. I would like to add that his reads shifts into giving a town read to half the town fit into having an idea of where his partners are now that RVS is over for the most part. Though it could just be a time issue on 1282. Or a normal clustering due to whatever reason some people suddenly cluster their thoughts and reads into one post.

I also didn't edit any of that and it's stream of consciousness. I usually would cut down some, but I felt it was important you see how I'm processing the game and Bork and why I'm leaning one way and not the other. I haven't mentioned a lot of this, because I never went back and iso'd Bork. Due to etc.

[Bell]

Pretty much I just feel like my brain is Jam and everything is more fuzzy than it would normally be at this point. I'm not really playing how I should've.
But oh well. We're doing pretty good anyway.

[morph the cat]

Spoiler: Morph and Bell Neighborhood

I apologize for the tone.

Town Rem:

There are no hints or emotions in his initial posts that indicate he rolled scum and is sad about it!

#108: Gif absolutely isn't compensating for something like a red rolePM. He just needs to start the engine.
#109: Go easy on me guys. I've had some bad experiences recently so be gentle! [not, oh shit I rolled scum and now I need to get into a groove but I hope people don't notice me adjusting to remember how to be scum if I ever remembered how to be scum! Maybe I should just ask people to keep their expectations low so they don't think I'm suspicious, that's not suspicious, right?]
#113: Sounds sort of like honest town! Bork see thing, Bork say thing.
#125: ? um. I got nothing.
#140: This isn't, oh god don't think I'm scum don't think I'm scum say something anything bork, associations? Associations. This me being cool town, look I won't even add punctuation to the end. That's how cool I am.
#146: Town bork see something, town bork say something even if he can't quite articulate it.
#147: This isn't scum bork wiping sweat from dodging a bullet.This is town bork saying how dumb would it be if he thought that it was AI!.
#171: He correctly identified the problem, joyed not saying much, but didn't reach the conclusion that this might be scummy. This isn't uncommon. The signal to noise isn't the word I'd use but it is early game and that's not super suspicious and reasonable Bork may just be being reasonable.
#198 Town curiosity Bork.
#208: This seems like a pretty good reason to me.
#358: A little double standardy with the hydra complaints from Joyed but this isn't strange to me.
#361: This is a lot of scum pings to be throwing out at a lot of confirmed town. early game, when it might serve scum Rem better not to give so many players a hard time, even though he adds caveats and timers to these, which could be to ramp up pressure in RVS or merely . But then he doubles back and scum reads Joyed. Which I feel would be sort of the opposite of the natural direction to take? It depends on game state which I can't fully recall.
#364: This is an emotional honest reaction to Morph's early play and not either a) I'm genuinely relieved you are leaving me alone, I have cleared stage 1 of my survive morph strategy *fist pump* b) I'm not accidentally vaguely insinuating knowing more about what you're doing as town because I know you're town.
#378: Dreams aren't real bucko. But maybe he just edited the dreams and thought showing emotional vulnerability would be a pretty good way of helping us see town bork and not laughing at himself, in thread, about being in that exact scenario. I'm also not totally sure he makes this post and then deletes it as scum when town him is okay sharing that.
#405: Honest Bork giving us his honest opinion, there must have been a gun to his head for him to squeeze this one out and it's not due to scumhesitation. Maybe.
#407: Not a soft ball. It's a good Q. It just happens to be scum explaining why this town person is town and not scum asking scum to elaborate because scum don't talk to each other. Okay? Okay.
#608: More town bork see stuff, town bork say stuff. Though from a mere, wtf he has almost thrown a scum ping at the entire town and town read MWB and "I don't see it" null read Joyed. This goes back to the issue of whether he would play in reverse to how I might play it, where I scum read scum and find reasons not to vote them. I'm kinda bussy.
#617: This is a lot of gumption for scum.
#633: This is

definitely

not busy work and destroying team assumptions because he's run out of people to scum read that aren't his team. TBSS, TBSS.
#651: That's some hard defending of MWB for scum to take. I would be a little leery of doing this as scum. If he's scum or town It kind of feels like he's found his groove. What are the odds he scum reads all the town and town reads all the scum? Just on basic principle and would that change the math any? I've run into examples of town players doing exactly this and it's not like his reads don't evolve (sort of) or develop.
682: My initial impression is that this is pro-social. Which I associate a little with being protown ~ town. It's unclear to me if he would do this as one alignment but not the other. See MWB being upset that the April/Morph interaction resolved as game identifying game/ town identifying town when he hoped it would fester.
#875: This is exactly the kind of farsighted stuff GIF likes to do as scum down the line. But this is Bork town time section (though really a mix) and therefore gif town time section and so I shall say thus: OKAY.
#912: So blunt and forward! So townie! TBSS, TBSS. This tune changed some day 2 or 3 where he did a different tack. More posts like this and I wouldn't be leaning scum on him.
#917: Engaged townie making engaged questions toward Alisae and not: a+b) asking questions that lead nowhere. Looking for opportunities.
#921: if scum, on a roll/feelin' it.
#1281: Seems like a natural turn rather than a fake one on Joyed. And he gives a town read to town April (who he had not directly commented on, alighment wise) until this post in
#1282: Reversal on Tunnel, into a town read. I'm not sure if this makes sense from scum bork. He officially just gave 2 town reads, 1 light town read on MWB much earlier and flipped his joyed approach in a few posts. I'm having difficulty parsing these posts from either town or scum Bork.
#1289: Now a total reversal, after throwing some suspicion at people he town reads half the game. Puts midway directly in the middle (lol). His response to Joyed seems fairly natural here.
#1292: Towncurious or scum-wait-and-see.
#1300: good vote.








He guts scum reads Joyed which he probably wouldn't do as scum. Pushing and voting him multiple times for gut reasons before bouncing off of him twice because he lacks conviction like all good townies do when they're honest with themselves.

He soft counter claims 420, because people aren't believing him when he said he has a good reason for suspecting they both can't be in the set up together. Ultimately, he's incorrect but he won't be the first or the last town member to think "that doesn't make sense with my role, he's probably scum!" any annoyance he had at his role being revealed and then 420 not being flipped is just hidden well because he's a good person/forgot.

His agitation is related to his pet peeves about things like meta and he doesn't like being pushed as town and he wasn't faking that. I don't know how scum bork reacts to being pushed tho.If he's just like, well that's how I be as town, so that's how I gotta be as scum. Then maybe it explains the snap. On the other hand, I've had a lot of emotional reactions to others play recently and I think I might be a little too judgmental, oh well~.

It's just a coincidence he started out the game or maybe even points away from scum him in that he soft defends both scum by either not seeing the problem with their posts or challenging another player on an accusation. I don't think it's out of place for this to happen early game as town Bork. Or at least, not terribly out of place.

His innocuous interactions with MWB aren't due to being scum partners but from not knowing each other. Or a first impressions issue.

His read on muffin reads strange to me. However I need to think about it until I can put a pattern around it. So far, no pattern has occurred that seems like a convincing reason to town read muffin and it feels fairly off in a way I don't understand. Perhaps it's simply because of how he words it so vaguely as gut, ohhh. I see it just doesn't feel like he's progressed on his muffin read in a natural fashion. It's not being more developed or nuanced or changing. He reiterates his reads when Muffin does something he thinks is townie, but he doesn't directly comment on why he thinks it's townie in a engaged manner. There's a general distance between Muffin and Bork that I don't really understand.

Okay I'm done for now. I'm tired. If you think I can fake this kind of thinking well, thanks for the vote of confidence.

It seems like the majority of these points resolve to town-bork, but your overall read is scum?

[Secret Tunnel]

IV is basically a more eccentric me

I also candidly was kinda faking it til I made it. I did genuinely hope the power of friendship would show you guys the light but I was kinda stressing mid d1. My thing I’m most nervous of this game was you lot bc since I’ve been back my friends have been my Achilles heel and I’ve been trying to be very careful not to get pocketed this game bc I *really* wanted this game to be a breakout game for me regardless of alignment.

My first step was making sure I’m super townread so I can work with whichever of youse was town snd if I couldn’t knock that out it makes my life harder bc similar to what bulge is saying it’s harder to get reads in a weird position in town

But I also expected us to start dropping n1 so it’s honestly making it worse? Even with us hitting two scum I got cold feet on one bc it felt way too easy and I did power through the other one but now it feels like one of us has to be it and I’m really kinda all jumbled up

I also forgot why I started typing this but yeah

[Bell]

No see that was the town bork section believe it or not. If I had the energy I would make a scum Bork section after finishing that.

Really don't think I chose well in regards to how I presented that case. Because I shouldn't have directly linked those posts but gave an overall narrative to his actions and play rather than that sort of running commentary. More the stuff on the bottom than the stuff on the top.

In a better, more engaged Bell head space I would be swimming in the narrative instead of just chugging along on reads and posts reactions.

@ST, I made a note about you in my PT regarding your break out desire to play scum well. I remembered from something you said in another thread. I believe the end of that line was that they probably would just roll town again and their hopes of being scum would be dashed.

[Bell]

...Sigh what I'm trying to say is that with more time and effort and a better understanding and memory for everything that went on in the game I would probably be more comfortable being concise where every minute of thought is condensed into something approaching a workable reason for someone being scum.

To me there are just points for and against Bork.
I think there are silences, weird read progressions, weird role mechanics that make Bork's role untenable.

I can see a scum bork world fairly clearly where you have someone who began the game by getting a feel for the game and hoping to get past your guard. Getting a feel for his partners by engaging with them with a tough veneer that results in short, controlled interactions, that they can't mess up until he has a better feel for their play. But never hard pushing them until the writing was on the wall. Who interacted quite differently with MWB than the rest of the playerlist. Who's vote hopped on Joyed, but hopped off easily with the excuse of hesitation or superseding his will to the majority than to push it. He never pushed a case this game in a way that made sense beyond the incorrect 420 interaction. His initial reads were sparse of reasons, seemingly gut town reads rather than the more case based Rem nose to the grind-stone conception I have of him who takes the questions he asks and does something with them. You can see it in how he initially reacts to joyed in a pretty townie manner...Aww crap I lost my string because I can't remember what he did next. I don't want to look I don't want to look let's just ASSUME, he peters out and I make the assumption as scum that he doesn't without at least pushing Joyed harder than he did.
Who reads Muffin as town for reasons that I can't remotely identify with and doesn't truly interact with muffin in a way that reads like it might have initially been some sort of false association trial in case he flipped later.

There's lots of stuff.

I also think that I could be wrong, because there are alternative explanations that aren't TOO out there. It could just be a town adjusting. It could be that the way RVS rolled out with a focus on him by you took him off his game so that only sparks of his town play occurred. He spent significantly more time engaging you than doing his own thing and that was unfortunate.

Sigh. Dunno why I wrote this extra bit.

[morph the cat]

IV is basically a more eccentric me

I also candidly was kinda faking it til I made it. I did genuinely hope the power of friendship would show you guys the light but I was kinda stressing mid d1. My thing I’m most nervous of this game was you lot bc since I’ve been back my friends have been my Achilles heel and I’ve been trying to be very careful not to get pocketed this game bc I *really* wanted this game to be a breakout game for me regardless of alignment.

My first step was making sure I’m super townread so I can work with whichever of youse was town snd if I couldn’t knock that out it makes my life harder bc similar to what bulge is saying it’s harder to get reads in a weird position in town

But I also expected us to start dropping n1 so it’s honestly making it worse? Even with us hitting two scum I got cold feet on one bc it felt way too easy and I did power through the other one but now it feels like one of us has to be it and I’m really kinda all jumbled up

I also forgot why I started typing this but yeah

S_S n1k puzzles me. I can't know for sure before the game ends, but I feel like there's something important locked up in that kill. :/

[Bell]

I think April was correct and they just thought he was a power role.
There's something to be said about how Rem-scum might have behaved under the thought that it was either him or Tunnel who was going to be killed the next day based on their interactions.

Oh shit.

[Bell]

Well, that's not much of a revelation it's just a normal thought you can easily reach. I guess it just makes a little more sense post flips that if the alien was in their cross hairs they would be extra willing to send the Bomb out to space.

[Bell]

Just in case it was true.

[morph the cat]

...Sigh what I'm trying to say is that with more time and effort and a better understanding and memory for everything that went on in the game I would probably be more comfortable being concise where every minute of thought is condensed into something approaching a workable reason for someone being scum.

To me there are just points for and against Bork.
I think there are silences, weird read progressions, weird role mechanics that make Bork's role untenable.

I can see a scum bork world fairly clearly where you have someone who began the game by getting a feel for the game and hoping to get past your guard. Getting a feel for his partners by engaging with them with a tough veneer that results in short, controlled interactions, that they can't mess up until he has a better feel for their play. But never hard pushing them until the writing was on the wall. Who interacted quite differently with MWB than the rest of the playerlist. Who's vote hopped on Joyed, but hopped off easily with the excuse of hesitation or superseding his will to the majority than to push it. He never pushed a case this game in a way that made sense beyond the incorrect 420 interaction. His initial reads were sparse of reasons, seemingly gut town reads rather than the more case based Rem nose to the grind-stone conception I have of him who takes the questions he asks and does something with them. You can see it in how he initially reacts to joyed in a pretty townie manner...Aww crap I lost my string because I can't remember what he did next. I don't want to look I don't want to look let's just ASSUME, he peters out and I make the assumption as scum that he doesn't without at least pushing Joyed harder than he did.
Who reads Muffin as town for reasons that I can't remotely identify with and doesn't truly interact with muffin in a way that reads like it might have initially been some sort of false association trial in case he flipped later.

There's lots of stuff.

I also think that I could be wrong, because there are alternative explanations that aren't TOO out there. It could just be a town adjusting. It could be that the way RVS rolled out with a focus on him by you took him off his game so that only sparks of his town play occurred. He spent significantly more time engaging you than doing his own thing and that was unfortunate.

Sigh. Dunno why I wrote this extra bit.

This doesn't address everything you're talking about, but I feel like the strangeness and the frequency of his interactions with us, especially day 1 and day 3, come down to me being out of sorts this game. I came in feeling very confident that I could pick up and play my game as it was in 2018 and that it would work, because it basically worked in the FGO game, even though I was a mostly-unknown quantity and was playing with other mostly unknown quantities. I felt like if I could be fairly obviously town in that environment this game should be a breeze.

It wasn't.