Slaughter Hour: The Grand Debut! | Fin

petapan · Post Post #7425 (ISO) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:53 pm

whatever you feel fine with i don't mean to cramp you

petapan · Post Post #7426 (ISO) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:00 pm

work however you want, i spent last phase doing my homework and came away with an answer, the floor is open to the rest of you

Ydrasse · Post Post #7427 (ISO) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:02 pm

Tick Away is selected automatically in:

(expired on 2021-11-26 01:37:39)

very very drained rn so tomorrow ill post but just wanted to make sure everyone knows we gotta solve in this time unless we want kill

Ydrasse · Post Post #7428 (ISO) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:08 pm

@Ydrasse- Could I get a few thoughts on the game from your perspective? Skipping over last event and going over previous stuff would be fine, maybe what you thought of skitter early game, how scum interacted with you in particular and why you think they treated you the way they did, anything else that you think is weird/insightful that you think has been overlooked so far would all be fine.

also wanted 2 reply to this: scum all tried to townreads me/pocket me felt like (skitter defending, saber tr, dunnstral defense on me) and idk why, probably because it looks good if i flip town? i think titus was the one who didn't do this but she wasn't really playing a long game when she joined in,

gamma fits this better earlier game actually bc he slapped down a weird tr on me that i don't quite get. also peta if youw ant to get technical for going through a ton of quotes to tr me but i don't think this is the 4th scum coming out to tr me for a hard pocket. maybe it is i pray it's not but pretty sure that isn't hte case.

feels easier to build a narrative with your slot being scum than it is gamma rn gamma did some ? things but it's harder to put together the pieces than it is for your slot doing what it did to try and win but im not 100% atm,

more tmrw falling asleep

ISO · Post Post #7429 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:42 am

"Final Hour"

Event Rules

Ring the Bell 10.1

Not Voting [4]:

petapan, Ydrasse, Gammagooey, the worst

With 4 finalists remaining, it takes 3 votes to Ring the Bell. Teams must contain three members. If rung and entirely composed of town, town wins. Otherwise, scum wins.

[/mech]

Tick Away 10.1

Not Voting [4]:

petapan, Ydrasse, Gammagooey, the worst

With 4 finalists remaining, it takes 3 votes to Tick Away. If selected, scum instantly kills a town-aligned player. Afterwards, this option is switched to "Stop the Clock".

Tick Away is selected automatically in:

(expired on 2021-11-26 01:37:39)s

[/mech]

Crash the Party 10.1

Not Voting [4]:

petapan, Ydrasse, Gammagooey, the worst

With 4 finalists remaining, it takes 2 votes to Crash the Party. If crashed, scum wins.

[/mech]

Now playing..

♫

IDKHOW - Clusterhug

♫

▶ ❚❚ ────────●────────────────────── 0:47 / 3:11

petapan · Post Post #7430 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 am

In post 7427, Ydrasse wrote:
Tick Away is selected automatically in:
(expired on 2021-11-26 01:37:39)

very very drained rn so tomorrow ill post but just wanted to make sure everyone knows we gotta solve in this time unless we want kill

yeah i mentioned this last page but basically i want a hard deadline of 2 days before deadline to start laying down votes

Ydrasse · Post Post #7431 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:58 am

i have thoughts in my head but i need the worst to post his thoughts in his head

petapan · Post Post #7432 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:25 am

Gammagooey · Post Post #7433 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:14 am

Off work and starting to type up an actual post from my mess of notes, dunno if I'll be completely done with what I want to say in ~an hour but if I'm not I'll at least find a good stopping point and just make it a multi-poster.

ISO · Post Post #7434 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:00 pm

In post 7431, Ydrasse wrote:i have thoughts in my head but i need the worst to post his thoughts in his head

whatcha after

Gammagooey · Post Post #7435 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:43 pm

Not super happy with this yet but it's a start at least.

Let's start with this - I think Gamma Emerald is/was more likely to be scum here than Ydrasse, and if you think that peta is scum you're the worst (the player, not the adjective) and you still haven't read through large chunks of the game yet.

But, there are two posts that I either previously thought Gemerald was incredibly town for (the first post) or that looked town enough on my reread last night+this morning (the second post) that I immediately went back to recheck Ydra/skitter's isos together because I thought they were Strongly indicative of Gemerald town.

The first I mentioned earlier this phase:

Spoiler: Gemerald after Infinity nom posts

In post 7415, Gammagooey wrote:Also, in regards to my GE read yesterday - every time I went back to consider the possibility of him being scum, this posts in particular made me shrug it off and leave him as town.

In post 3454, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3441, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 3432, Gamma Emerald wrote:How much have your reads changed since this point, if at all? How would you rank the players in an exact order of towniest to scummiest rn?

{gamma}
{taly, ydrasse, ulyana}
{cakez, skitt, toog}
{peta, gooey, dwlee}
{gypyx, saber}

i guess this is it, ordered from t->s within the tiers. toog moved up from good posting in the pt, dwlee moved up after thinking about it more because i think i believe their scumread on me, unwnd i felt was being genuine in ex. his interaction with taly towards the end of the last phase, he was trying to solve even though it looked like he was gonna die.
So here's the thing: I mentioned you come off like in that True Love game because on a lark I read that one over because I was also curious if you'd ever misread town!me (and you did, in that game) and you had the scum towards the middle of your reads in that game, while consistently push the T/T pairs. You ended up getting miseliminated which took scum!creature out with you. I think things are lining up in such a way that this game has become a near perfect replication of the trajectory of that game. As such, the midzone of your reads list is honestly where I'd want to kill in the most rn. (Cakez, skitts, toog, peta) are the full list of names I sus based on this conclusion, so I'd very much like to vote out peta here. If that is unappealing to everyone else though, I'd like to try something else, though idk how the math for this would even work, where we deliberately split the votes so it's scum's choice who dies, thus allowing NKA to be done.

In post 3460, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3458, ulyana wrote:can we just only try to eliminate mafias like i know we got one in the duel and that was entire goal and what i spent day fighting for, so let's just do that again pushing only for most likely not like, let the scum make choices for information!
I am firm in my belief infinity is town. If enough people think peta is also town, I'd rather force scum to make the call as that's more informative.
I don't think I've ever seen a scum player aside from Titus ever try to get away with "let's give the scum an obvious and clear benefit instead of trying to elim scum" like this. From my perspective it's borderline universally angry townies who are so convinced in their worldview that they want to prove it to everyone even when it's clearly and obviously better to try to elim scum in case you're wrong in your reads. I'm going to go over some more posts from GE+Ydrasse but probably not until tonight.

Frankly, I still see pretty little to fault with his play on that day and feel like even if he is scum here he played it pretty close to how he thinks he would have played it as town, and I still think 80/90+% of the time when someone suggests something as wild as "let's let scum decide who should die" it's going to be coming from salty town. I think it's not reasonable that he actually expected people to follow it as scum, but I can see a world where he wanted to emphasize his frustration with the infinity wagon as much as possible before ultimately backing down.

The second set of posts is here:

Spoiler: Gemerald+Saber posts

In post 2834, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 2830, unwnd wrote:
In post 2828, Gamma Emerald wrote:Unwnd what is your scumpool rn
I don't feel confident in giving something definitive
Just spit something out
I feel bad that you’re in this position but I don’t feel okay veto’ing you getting voted in, so instead I’m allowing you to pick a name to get voted in with you, I’d very much like if you didn’t pick someone I TR but if you firmly believe I’m wrong on someone I’m willing to listen, while I call it Cabd Clause you were also part of the hydra that made the comment that made that “a thing”. So I’m kinda willing to lend you my ear in that sense more than some others.

In post 2839, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 2833, unwnd wrote:The least I can bargain is that I would still love to flip Saber/Cakez

I would say at one scum there, confidently

But matching any further doesn't seem proper
Okay, this is workable
If you+me vote one of them that’ll change things so they’re set to be part of the duel over Toog.

In post 2842, Gamma Emerald wrote:VOTE: Saber
I am okay with this.

In post 2849, Saber wrote:
In post 2473, Dwlee99 wrote:
In post 2460, Saber wrote:
In post 2306, Dwlee99 wrote:I'm not reading this bye
Did you end up reading?
Nope

In post 2430, Dwlee99 wrote:VOTE: Infinity
Why did you switch from unwnd to Infinity then?

In post 2850, Saber wrote:
In post 2463, unwnd wrote:My cakez read is not that he's in catchup mode. I'm not sure how that thought was lost in translation.

I was in the car thinking about how you think I'm theatrical Saber. In what way would that determine a read on me? My short answer remains but I'm pretty sure I just like to write. I lean into prose because that's what makes mafia fun to me. Thinking about concepts and wording and such. I'm capable of faking it as scum to my own credit.
Theatrical as in the motive I read behind certain things you post are to make you appear more like a contestant, you're putting in a lot of effort to appear transparent, like how you went through a whole progression on your Dunnstral read without any new Dunnatral content coming in and changing your opinion of him.

In post 2851, Saber wrote:Lot more to read through which I'll get to soon.

For now: Gamma, what are your issues with me? As far as I can remember, it's because you disliked how I changed my opinion on you, but a lot of players saw the exact same things I did? Your contestant spew during the execution decision was the number 1 reason many including myself changed our minds, so I'm not sure why you're honing in on my progession being suspicious.

In post 2858, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 1918, Saber wrote:It was less about it being tactical, and more about it feeling unnatural.
My issue rn kinda lies with this comment. I feel like it’s a bit revisionist history given pushing me is no longer the in mode thing to do. Before this I distinctly recall you saying when I was switching things up it felt to you like I was scum seeing my current approach wasn’t working and trying something new. That is essentially being tactical about switching up my play. And yet you nitpick my word choice like this, it feels incredibly concerning, like you’re trying to detach yourself from the push on me you had before.

In post 2860, Saber wrote:
In post 2858, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 1918, Saber wrote:It was less about it being tactical, and more about it feeling unnatural.
My issue rn kinda lies with this comment. I feel like it’s a bit revisionist history given pushing me is no longer the in mode thing to do. Before this I distinctly recall you saying when I was switching things up it felt to you like I was scum seeing my current approach wasn’t working and trying something new. That is essentially being tactical about switching up my play. And yet you nitpick my word choice like this, it feels incredibly concerning, like you’re trying to detach yourself from the push on me you had before.
Yes, it was both. My point was that your shifts in attitude seemed unnatural, which is the main way to tell whether they're from a stagehand or contestant. It can only be theorised whether they're actually tactical because they didn't even go well for you. For example, your acting like a jester and then turning on Prism only seemed to attract more heat on you, so saying it's a stagehand tactic is iffy since you'd be actively pursuing bad tactics. I'd prefer to look at whether it was actually natural for you start acting those ways when you did.

In post 2863, Saber wrote:I feel sorta bad for unwnd because he's repped into a tough position and I think his frustration is genuine, but regardless I think he's a stagehand.

During his interaction with Ydrasse, he starts of by implying she would be a good candidate for the duel:
In post 2625, unwnd wrote:I have zero clue why you believe I'm scum

Last time we talked I was again towny

And it's not like you have your own data besides the one game we were scum together?

In post 2630, unwnd wrote:
In post 2617, ulyana wrote:
In post 2611, unwnd wrote:You give me a flip I want and you'll see that more
it hard to give to this because what i already laid out like you have to be TOWN upfront and the flip you want has to be NOT TOWN
I would like Infinity/Ydra

and I thought this initially looked very good for Gemerald until seeing that he really didn't follow through with it after that - he sits on the vote for a while and discusses other things regarding my slot (unwnd) and eventually jumps off to vote Toog. I don't think that's impossible for town to do either, but I can see scum-Gemerald doing some distancing with Saber and then leaving it there without seriously pushing it and let the rest of the very fast-paced game blow by and ignore it. There was one follow-up with Ulyana not mentioned below justifying why he was voting Saber instead of trying to get S/S in the duel not mentioned below, but he doesn't actually focus on Saber to try to put a wagon together on her.

Spoiler: things after

---------------------------------------------------------------------

skitter seems to want to position herself here as pushing Gemerald, and regardless of who is scum between Ydrasse/Gemerald/me she was trying to distance/bus Day 1 given this post:

Spoiler: skitters read post

In post 505, skitter30 wrote:
In post 501, Dwlee99 wrote:Infinity is scummy, skitter's post is less scummy, but if infinity is scum it reads like a way to distance without actually pushing. Also the gamma vote. Gamma probably is town
i find gamma scummier than infinity rn, but i am more than happy to vote infinity as well
(also the fact that infinity is not really responding to my read is, uh, Not Good)
why is gamma probably town?

and pedit @prism fair enuf.

In post 607, skitter30 wrote:i think prism comes off infinitely better than gamma in their spat
i'm kinda liking taly now too

In post 608, skitter30 wrote:
In post 602, Gamma Emerald wrote:Cephrir
ulyana
Ydrasse
PookyTheMagicalBear
skitter30
Infinity 324
Galron

I’m probably going to count on these people to help me keep a level head wrt Prism, because I think he’s in a similar spot Kyouko was in Radio Buzz so if they back that up I’ll basically just write off Prism as town until lategame
uh no offense but this basically looks like you're asking half the game to give you an out to back out of this fight

In post 703, skitter30 wrote:
In post 672, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 667, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:Gamma if you become King who would you execute in the PL right now
Cephrir
Prism I can see just being history repeating itself where I'm clashing with someone being over-confident I'm scum,
Cephrir meanwhile has taken steps beyond what should ever be considered good-faith attempts to get me eliminate
d.
No offense but i feel like ur kinda just making stuff up to see uf u can get one of these votes to stick

~
I forgot to say this earlier - while infinity and dwlee are both independantly scummy i dont think they make ssense together

And to me it feels more like making sure she'll come out of a Gemerald-flip looking good than a push on town given the amount of outs she gives herself for it along the way

In post 512, skitter30 wrote:i think the gamma tonal bits are probably nai fwiw

In post 994, skitter30 wrote:okay, that was slightly uncomfortable to read through
i'm basically tossing out today's incarnation of the prism/gamma thing because i think that most of it was nai and stemmed things other than their respective alignments

more holistically though, i do still think that gamma's early game was bad.
like, in radio buzz, i felt like his thoughts actually made sense and i was able to track his thought process from post to post and vote to vote
here his explanations for this votes and stances like don't really make sense and kinda contradict each other
VOTE: gamma

i would also vote dwlee

~
hi gypyx! i think your entrance is townie

~
hi galron! have you caught up yet? you said there were a few things you were going to read. did you do so?
i'm finding your content thru this point really underwhelming unfortunately

~
there's a couple of other things i wanna circle back to too

In post 1236, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1111, Dunnstral wrote:VOTE: Gamma Emerald

E-1

In post 1120, Galron wrote:I'm going to hammer I guess. I think we need a flip, or at least a view of how these days are going to go down.
@galron like 3 posts on top of this u said u werenr sure if gamma is scum + u arent really caughr up / into the game yet. This intent is super premature in that context and doesnt really make sense

Ngl i'm starting to get some cold feet abt gamma
There's been like no resistance, the wagon comp keeps changing, and i dont like how people are popping out of the woodwork to vote him

---------------------------

This feels good for Ydrasse - the poking skitter does to her earlier I think could be directed at either town or scum, but this specifically like Ydrasse-town not getting why skitter is concerned with her given skitter's existing take on Gemerald given Ydra/Gemerald's interactions

In post 1030, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1027, Ydrasse wrote:
In post 1024, skitter30 wrote:i don't remember how u were in that normal game, i was scum and also have actively expunged that from my memory, sorry
but i don't think you're that similar to radio buzz

pedit why does grilling gamma make you town?
ur voting gamma. u think he is scum. i was one of the first ppl to dig into him and actually get him to explain his reasoning which is why you are now scumreading him. why do i set up gamma like that
i did note that if he's scum you probably aren't but at this stage where we don't have any flips that isn't a reason to townread you

In post 1033, Ydrasse wrote:
In post 1030, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1027, Ydrasse wrote:
In post 1024, skitter30 wrote:i don't remember how u were in that normal game, i was scum and also have actively expunged that from my memory, sorry
but i don't think you're that similar to radio buzz

pedit why does grilling gamma make you town?
ur voting gamma. u think he is scum. i was one of the first ppl to dig into him and actually get him to explain his reasoning which is why you are now scumreading him. why do i set up gamma like that
i did note that if he's scum you probably aren't but at this stage where we don't have any flips that isn't a reason to townread you
Zzz

If u say so but its just weird 2 me when i was the catalyst for like. not all of it but a decent chunk idk

maybe im just built different

----------------

This comment on scum stancing around him is correct, just not about Ceph -

In post 1738, Gamma Emerald wrote:Deciding to do ISOs on the non-Galron shot options as well
I really feel like Cephrir’s push on me doesn’t feel right. It feels like he’s stuck in a spot of
having
to push me, which kinda builds on the idea that scum were stancing up around me in different planned-out ways.

In post 1561, Saber wrote:
In post 1557, Gamma Emerald wrote:Do you think scum are involved with the Galron wagon, Saber?
Most likely. I think you're a stagehand and the Galron wagon is your buddies attempt to save you. Whether they're instigating it (skitter) or taking advantage of it (petapan amongst others) I'm unsure of though.

Or it's Galron and I'm wrong on you but that can't be the case because I'm incapable of being wrong.

In post 1641, Saber wrote:
In post 1627, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1561, Saber wrote:
In post 1557, Gamma Emerald wrote:Do you think scum are involved with the Galron wagon, Saber?
Most likely. I think you're a stagehand and the Galron wagon is your buddies attempt to save you. Whether they're instigating it (skitter) or taking advantage of it (petapan amongst others) I'm unsure of though.

Or it's Galron and I'm wrong on you but that can't be the case because I'm incapable of being wrong.
kinda feel like you're calling galron *just scummy enough* that you can plausibly join that wagon too
like in a hedge-y sort of way
Nah, Galron may be dealing drugs on the side but Gamma is the shining stagehand. I implore you to vote him.

ISO · Post Post #7436 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:37 pm

i should ideally be waiting for ggooey to finish so that i can respond without ~guiding~ but i'm very mindful that i'm not clear so whatever.

don't think peta is scum here. i'm going to own that peta does have a strong scumgame, but every time i've read through some part of the game or another ft. peta he seems to be powertowning and i don't think his scum wim is that high. the gamestate since i've replaced in has also revolved around peta as core town - taly was solving with peta yday, ggooey/ydra both seem to be proceeding on the basis that he's town. i don't see anything that really makes me think otherwise and tbh if he is powerwolfing then the game is bent into such a pretzel that i'm not sure how to begin unpicking it.

fmpov the decision is really in [ydra, ggooey]. i generally agree with the points peta makes about the associatives between ydra & skitter (can talk thru his analysis if this is going to help). the biggest thing that gives me pause is that her energy pattern seems to more closely resemble her lategame scum energy than lategame but given this game is a fucking mammoth my stock in that sinking feeling is devaluing p quick.

@ggooey can you talk me through your decision to create the [taly,ydra] dichotomy yesterday? i'm aware you've cited a few posts of GEm's as unlikely to come from scum fypov but as far as i can tell these are principally tonal reasons?; can you expand any more on why you were/are suspicious of ydra or if there is more behind your read (former read?) on my slot?; you mentioned a motivation for that pairing because fypov eliminating the two of them was the path to victory. did you see a world where taly wasn't yesterday's elimination?

Gammagooey · Post Post #7437 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:03 pm

skitter giving the same NAI cover to Saber later, context being this is RIGHT before infinity+taly both say Saber should have been the nom and skitter jumps on bussing her more intensely

In post 3880, skitter30 wrote:saber's tilt is nai but her content is just kinda ~lacking~ tbh

this interaction with HQ is a ridiculous logic leap from Gemerald and a v. forced followup from HQ

Spoiler: Gemerald+HQ posts

When skitter finally gets around to answering what I've been bugging her about since literally my first post in the main thread almost 1000 posts later (and I know you don't want much defense in here peta but I promise you that as scum I would bug her in the scum PT to answer way way sooner than that), Gemerald is the only read that gets largely skipped over instead of actually giving reasons for, which matches what she did D1 with both Dunn+Saber as "no thoughts/forgot they were in the game"

In post 4433, skitter30 wrote:
In post 4424, Gammagooey wrote:
In post 3958, Gammagooey wrote:
In post 3465, Gammagooey wrote: SKITTER can you give me like a timeline/summary of who you were suspecting and how strongly through events 1-3? (also I might just call them days 1 and 2 later because that feels correct to me)
I still want this when you have time btw. I don't really understand your read progression on either of peta or infinity at the moment and going through some of your thoughts about them (and any other strong reads) from previous days would help me out a lot with that
basically day1 i was mostly suspicious of your slot (the galron iteration) - he wanted to flip gamma without having a read there and wasn't really trying to solve, and felt just generally lacking as compared to radiobuzz . i didn't like unwnd's entrance, felt like he was trying to make cakez flippable, and felt like his approach to solving to the game didn't make much sense from a town-him's pov. i didn't really see the posting in the blue pt that people are raving about but your iteration seems a little bit better from what i've seen here.

infinity i was kinda suspicious of early game for not really trying to read me. in prior games they would make it a priority to try to solve me and would read me off of how i was trying to read them but that whole interaction/dance wasn't really happening this game, which made me somewhat suspicious because i thougth town-them would almost always do that, while scum-them would be a little too gun-shy to do that
i started feeling better abt her ~mid-day2 iirc because they were just kinda making good observations at the right time, and seemed to be trying to solve, and trying to help other people solve
and ultimately i don't think they end up on dunn eod there, i don't think they cast that vote to put a partner in the duel there

the other gamma is fairly obviously town from how he went about his decision in the chair phase.

cakez i've liked for most of the game despite a whole bunch of people trying to flip him earlier. his thinking was admittedly ~shallow~ but i think it was genuine and more a product of being busy he was irl - i liked how open he was about his thought processes, about how annoyed he was about how fast the game was moving, and he was just very guileless overall

peta i didn't really have thoughts on for most of day1, the phase where dunn got nommed i really didn't like his cakez push because i felt like he ought to have been townreading cakez by that point, and i didn't like how he dropped it in favor of dunn at the time that he did. i may have gotten a little tunneled, i realized over the night.

ydra i don't think interacts responds to unwnd's push on her the way she did as scum. there's no reason there for her to really have such an aggressive emotional response as scum, but i think it makes sense if she felt wrongly pushed as town and was annoyed

saber's slot has just kinda been around and just making kinda polished observations without follow-through and without really having an underlying thought process. kinda reminds me of scum-lilith in that way tbh. harley's entrance was focusing on the wrong things and was kinda scummy in that i think it's easier for scum to focus on mechancis in a game like this than figure out what their reads ought to be

i think those are some of the big ones

Also, skitter has basically NO direct interaction from her->Gemerald for the entire duel event. Gamma's wagon gets mentioned by skitter several times, and he comments on a few things she says, but I could only find one post from skitter where she actually interacts with him directly, one instance of giving Gemerald a ? between I think more than 1000 posts of duel posting from here:

In post 2118, skitter30 wrote:
In post 2106, Saber wrote:Most vocal stagehand or suspicions from Pooky I can see are on Gamma, Dunnstral, and petapan. He also supported a S-S theory for the two leading wagons.
just gonna point out that even though i townread gamma at this point we technically we haven't really seen anything that disproves s/s

if they were actually svs wagons picking your partner and then sabotaging the flip is a great way to make you look unaligned in that situation

until after the next event had started. And just not interacting with your partner for a long while tends to be a pretty good tactic for scum so people don't find much damning content between partners in the event one flips, and I've used it myself in the past.

Spoiler: the one direct skitter post and a Gemerald post a bit after

Gammagooey · Post Post #7438 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:38 pm

In post 7436, the worst wrote: @ggooey can you talk me through your decision to create the [taly,ydra] dichotomy yesterday? i'm aware you've cited a few posts of GEm's as unlikely to come from scum fypov but as far as i can tell these are principally tonal reasons?; can you expand any more on why you were/are suspicious of ydra or if there is more behind your read (former read?) on my slot?; you mentioned a motivation for that pairing because fypov eliminating the two of them was the path to victory. did you see a world where taly wasn't yesterday's elimination?

Imo (and I still think this, not just formerly), Ydras play has looked scummier than Gemerald's, EXCEPT for both of their respective interactions with scum players. My thoughts on potential Ydra scum are pretty simple - if she's scum, she did exactly what she claimed she could get away with earlier in the game, did whatever she wanted and townread her scumpartners without worrying about it. If there were somehow no scum flips and only one scum in this whole game, I'd vote Ydra over your slot without question, but those interactions I think point to your slot more than Ydra.

I mentioned a few other reasons why I thought Gemerald was town yesterday to peta here:

In post 6564, Gammagooey wrote:
In post 6560, petapan wrote:
In post 6557, Gammagooey wrote:You were/are most likely town aside from myself
*this was talking about Gemerald*
excuse me, sir
nyeh heh heh

but also in addition to Gemerald's response to Infinity being wagoned. Does skitter take up the vast majority of page 50 single-handedly derailing a Dunn wagon that Gemerald started if they're both scum together? https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13038098

Does Gemerald continue to try to set up a Dunn wagon as his alternative right before he gets nommed for the Throne of Execution? Does Gemerald waffle on skitter for a bit, leave her as a townread midgame, but ultimately decide to leave Firebringer when he could have brought him through instead of Cakez?

If you think so I'm genuinely interested in your reasons for those in particular

Once the day got going and Taly started tunneling on me for putting her up for elimination, I was very convinced in Taly-scum over any other possible scum in the game. Before/while choosing Taly+Ydra, I thought that it was possible that the rest of Heaven PT wouldn't want to flip Taly, but thought that eliming both players with 5 players left was the best choice and likely what was going to happen.

Gammagooey · Post Post #7439 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:07 pm

gonna take a break for a while, will prob be back to typing up even more words in an hour and a half/two hours.

petapan · Post Post #7440 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:03 pm

In post 7436, the worst wrote:i don't think his scum wim is that high.

i posted hundreds of times in a game where i was stuck in a mechanical autoloss dude

petapan · Post Post #7441 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:08 pm

there are many reasons i am not scum this game but never read me on energy level

i am prideful and obligated to assert that my batteries do not run out

but anyway, reading and evaluating. will probably reply tomorrow

ISO · Post Post #7442 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:12 pm

so. there's high postcount, and then there's pressing your head as hard as possible against a brick wall and trying to run through it with ALL YOUR MIGHT when afaict nobody is asking you to do anything more than a leisurely saunter. posting up a storm when you've already lost as scum is a fucking blast, consistently overplaying over the course of two months when you're already winning is a lot more draining.

though even if i concede that point i don't really think it erodes the balance of my point. i just like arguing.

petapan · Post Post #7443 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:24 pm

the not overplaying is probably a better point in that i don't like to pull out tricks i don't have to if i can save them for another game yes lol

petapan · Post Post #7444 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:26 pm

In post 7437, Gammagooey wrote:When skitter finally gets around to answering what I've been bugging her about since literally my first post in the main thread almost 1000 posts later (and I know you don't want much defense in here peta but I promise you that as scum I would bug her in the scum PT to answer way way sooner than that), Gemerald is the only read that gets largely skipped over instead of actually giving reasons for, which matches what she did D1 with both Dunn+Saber as "no thoughts/forgot they were in the game"

i did notice that and now i'm thinking of another game and going ah hell

petapan · Post Post #7445 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:54 pm

but, a singular odd read in a list can happen.

some of that saber interaction is significantly more textured than gamma-scum's treatment of his partner in my last brush with him and he actually got caught in part because his distancing was so poor

i guess i can do some homework on that to fix up that read

am looking at ai upick

already have thoughts but will hold

Gammagooey · Post Post #7446 (ISO) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:20 pm

This feels like scum trying to get cred mentioning that they were pushing Dunn as well as the currently unflipped Saber-scum, especially given that GE just made a post about Saber being probscum a few posts back. GE was pushing Toog both at the beginning of the event and didn't even care about the difference between Toog/Dunn when they were being put up together at the event. There were a few Dunn-sus posts in the middle but they're pretty outshadowed by his posts on Toog, AND it wasn't even really pushing Saber vs Toog, he said he didn't want to veto unwnd being put up (though tbf I think a townread on unwnd is pretty strongly implied by GE through it) and it was setting up an unwnd+Saber duel.

In post 3973, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3940, Taly wrote:
In post 3932, Dwlee99 wrote:Another inconsistency with Skitter's "infinity is town because Dunn vote!" Thing when I voted Dunn way before that and was pushing him to be part of the duel very hard
Actually yeah

You and I WERE the strongest pushers on
Dunn
Event 2.
I’m pretty sure most of the time I was pushing Dunn as well
I did try to put Saber against Toog at one point but that was because unwnd wanted a saber flip

Spoiler: context quotes for the above

sus of Saber right before the unspoilered post

In post 3867, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3842, Dwlee99 wrote:Dunn gets in duel with or without infinity
That raises another question: with Saber probably being scum, scum!finity would have been shifting the wagon into their buddy earlier?

GE pushes/suspicions/etc from duel day involving Dunn/Toog

In post 2223, Gamma Emerald wrote:Actually now that I think about it lurkscum does feel like the “right” choice
So I’d maybe say Dunnstral/Toog/Ydrasse are the best options from an objective POV
unwnd I need to see how he plays but I wouldn’t have advocated putting Galron in under this logic
Btw this isn’t “vote player a in, votes reset, and then we vote player b in”. Once a person gets hammered the second-place wagon gets hammered with them. So beware that probably.

In post 2323, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 2280, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 1090, Dunnstral wrote:Not every mafia game needs to be painful
How does that even relate
You seem consistently tone-deaf this game and I have no idea what that means for you

In post 2331, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 2285, Dwlee99 wrote:If scum knew the chair was going to be used to make executions, shouldn't we be looking for people who tried to prevent Gamma from getting the chair, not the ones trying to give him the chair, assuming he is town?
I think being for or against me being in the chair is irrelevant, what’s more important is how they approached me. If I was reading solely based on that I feel like Ulyana would definitely look the worst. When I started expressing suspicion towards her her immediate paranoia was that I was angling to take a shot on her. Obviously that wasn’t the case, this wasn’t a game where I could just do that.

In post 2465, Toogeloo wrote:Where all the votes at? Less talky talky, more votey votey.

In post 2466, Gamma Emerald wrote:VOTE: Toogeloo
As you wish.

In post 2481, Gamma Emerald wrote:Anyway it looks like general consensus is on Toog being in the duel, who else should we put in?

In post 2491, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 2483, ulyana wrote:whose consensus
It feels like general idea of where scum is at is in the less actives, Toog fits that, which I think a few have noted, and people have also voiced suspicion on him based on other things
Maybe I’m just filling in a lot of spaces with the same few names though

In post 3050, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3009, Infinity 324 wrote:disagree on toog. most likely outcome is not that scum!them decided to do nothing and try to get townread
I don’t think Toog’s plan has been to get TRed, just to coast
So while unwnd’s specific logic is not good that doesn’t make the read wrong IMO

In post 3122, Gamma Emerald wrote:I’d accept a Toog/Dunn duel
Bring people out of the shadows and into the light

In post 3307, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3145, SirCakez wrote:
In post 3125, unwnd wrote:@Cakez

You were pretty much about 'Toog being scum' early on and now you're at them being null and even some posts that read like you think they're town? Why? What changed
With Toog - they are just trying so little that it almost feels too scummy to be scum, you know? And I have this instinct that scum is in the higher-activity players and they want to use Toog as a freelim when we can gain a lot more information by flipping someone who's active and controversial. Where does a Toog flip leave us regardless of alignment? Nowhere really.
And my other stronger scumreads all have Toog as someone they'd like to elim and it just feels wrong - someone else agreed with me on this I forget who.
oh this is why the tinfoil was a thing
why do you feel like scum are higher-activity generally? I'd maybe look at people who are more engaged now than they were in previous events, but I don't think that label fits anyone rn.

In post 3313, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3207, unwnd wrote:Cakez/Dunn ain't aligned so I'm cool with this

VOTE: Dunnstral
why
also VOTE: toogeloo

In post 3315, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3257, Dunnstral wrote:How is voting out me different than voting out toog for the game state?
it's not
I think you're both fine to be in the duel for that exact reason

In post 3316, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3271, Ydrasse wrote:just do toog/dunn and make everyone involved happy lol
see, you
get
me
Also, I think just because toog's ISO is kinda barren doesn't mean it's not a good flip to see how others interacted with him

And I think I'm done for now. There's maybe a few more things that I could bring up regarding his interactions with Toog and his pushes in general but I think they're a lot less strong than what I've listed so far and can plausibly come from town, even if I think they're more likely to be coming from scum. I might try to go through some more tomorrow but it's past 1am and I should be sleeping already. Also might respond to a few prior things with a defense about a few things tomorrow too but if I do I'll throw it in spoiler tags so it doesn't distract from the main Gemerald case.

Last thing I suppose
VOTE: Ring the Bell: petapan, Ydrasse, Gammagooey

petapan · Post Post #7447 (ISO) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:58 am

if you wanna defend yourself atp go for it i just didn't want that to be the only conversation we were having yknow

petapan · Post Post #7448 (ISO) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:11 am

2858 is actually an excellent post regardless of gamma emerald's alignment, and i'm going to explain why

he's drilling down on a specific detail of how saber is being nitpicky with language, which in general is a type of read that is more likely to come from town - scum tend to paint in broad brush strokes. it's also going back to recall a post that happened 900 posts earlier. that's a significant level of attention to detail. in a lot of worlds, it could be distancing but it's a more intricate read than he typically makes as scum (more intricate than most people make really)

i keep looking at his recent scumgames and reminding myself of what gamma emerald's actual range is, and there's a significant lack of depth as compared to his towngames, and lack of motivation. he highposted in FFXIV but he was in a hydra with nancy drew for that which likely helped for motivation and also helped pad postcount since he wasn't the only one making posts.

certainly his fade into the background in this game is concerning but i probably am too prone to falling into the "what have you done for me lately?" mentality, which can sometimes be successful in catching scum coasting, but just as often hits town who fell out of sync, and the whole crossing event phase was demotivating to a fair degree. probably need to take a bigger picture view here.

petapan · Post Post #7449 (ISO) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:50 am

i guess i'd like to hear if worst has more to say before i sound off in full