Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy


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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:02 am

Post by Vi »

Zilla 73 wrote:I'm slightly concerned over the bravado behind Vi's actions. She's being quite proactive, but that's also a great spot for scum to be. I'm particularly interested in how she has been targetting certain players with certain questions. It gives the illusion of being really organized, or the appearance of having some kind of "master plan" for finding scum, which builds unwarranted town trust. Furthermore, the hyper-directed approach allows her to ask "safe" questions to scumbuddies while still appearing to grill them.

IGMEOY Vi
So who, potentially, are my scumbuddies based on this approach?
As for being "really organized" or having a "master plan", I think anyone who's been in a game with me knows that I basically play as I go, but the sense of knowing what I'm doing is a nice illusion to keep up :D

I think you're putting a bit too much stock in asking individualized questions.
Zilla 60 wrote:I'm still mistrustful of something that potentially guarantees a free ride to end game, no matter what meta lies behind it.
Wait now. Nobody's said anything about Juls getting a free ride to endgame. Quite the opposite, most everyone has said that they're interested in judging Juls by how she acts.
Zilla 59 wrote:
PokerFace wrote:A better answer would have been I don't think she would lie it's not in her character
I especially don't like the underlined portion, where he says it would have been better not to provide another perspective and to agree that Juls wouldn't possibly lie.
The implication in the excerpt from PokerFace's quote is that Juls is lying about
being a Miller
, not just lying in general. I see why you latched onto this, because as you're reading it this is PokerFace basically putting Juls up as an angel and smiting Rhinox for not recognizing it (here comes the drama), and it really looks bad. But I don't think that's what PF meant.
(I'm also not sure if it qualifies as a chainsaw defense, though I'm sure you'll see this as one.)

-----
Gorrad 62 wrote:Serious question: How many setups with a cop do NOT have a GF role?
If you're in The Road to Rome, all of them.
Otherwise... I've seen some. US Election 08 had two Cops and no Godfathers (though the Cops had strings attached).
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:03 am

Post by VP Baltar »

ZEEnon wrote:Juls claiming miller early on is pro-town for the most part.
This lets us know that we do in fact have a cop.
It also helps the cop become aware that there very well may be a godfather role in the game.
I don't see much point to speculating about this right now, regardless of a miller claim.

@Juls, have you seen Cowboy Bebop before and if not what made you decide to join this game?
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:30 am

Post by Vi »

VP Baltar, don't you have any more relevant questions to ask? You seem to be playing very cautiously.

Unvote: Rhinox
Vote: VP Baltar
(L-5)
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:35 am

Post by VP Baltar »

It's actually a question relevant to something you said earlier, but I'll explain after Juls answers if you like.

In the meantime, you can explain this "cautious" play of mine as of page 4 (other than the question mentioned above).
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:40 am

Post by Rhinox »

Vi wrote:So... you saw that the game (serious mode) had started, and you didn't want to play...?
But I was playing! I answered questions. I just didn't realize it was a requirement to immediately ask questions in return. For the most part, I just assumed it was still only semi-serious without casting random votes. I got that impressions because the "question" you asked me, albeit rediculously hilarious (IMO), was not serious at all.
Vi wrote:There's also a possibility that everyone in this game is a Cult Leader. That doesn't mean that it's a possibility worth discussing.
Your dissenting view - "well maybe she was planning to do this since the last game" - seems very weak compared to your apparently Amazing Meta on Juls. So why toss dirt at Juls?
You are overstating how "amazing" I consider my meta on juls as much as you are understating the odds that she could be lying. If I truly considered my meta amazing, I would tend to lean more towards one side or the other, rather than sitting in the middle with uncertainty. Just to clarify again, from what I know of juls I do want to believe her, but I just don't want to get bit buy it later in the game. Everyone else has basically said the exact same thing, in different words. I haven't thrown any more or less dirt than anyone else (actually, I don't consider what I said throwing dirt at all!)

Also, who is to decide what is and isn't worth discussing at this stage of the game, and by what criteria?
forbiddanlight wrote:Of course, there is also a slightly higher liklihood than the average she is claiming it as scum since she's more familiar with the role.
This is basically the entire point I was trying to communicate by my comments about Juls.
Gorrad wrote:Yo! I'm here. Pokerface, you ready to take this game by storm?

The only benefit to a late miller claim is the same as the benefit to any late claim, you aren't giving scum early information. Scum have enough info that any withheld is good withheld. However, the negatives in the case of millers claiming late make doing so not, in my opinion, worth it. Though I must say, I have never played a miller.
What would you say the negatives are then?
Shadow wrote:Since you've said you've been in so many games with Juls' - does her current behaviour match her town meta? Scum meta?
Juls' current behavior tells me nothing about her allignment, because she hasn't really said or done anything apart from claim miller. When she starts playing more, I'll take my meta of her more into consideration. However, I will point out that I tend to think of meta in more abstract, general feelings, rather than specific actions (she said this as town/scum), mainly because I consider meta somewhat unreliable, and I know I consciously try to adapt and change mine :twisted:. Besides, I've only ever had one successful scum meta read (ask Vi about that one), and every other time I've consider my meta reads to be inconclusive. I'm really not intending on letting my meta on players I'm familiar with in this game determine how I hunt scum.
Vi wrote:So who, potentially, are my scumbuddies based on this approach?
Maybe I'm way off base here, but what exactly are the benefits of trying to pair up scum partners so early in the game? Pokerface can answer this as well.
Vi wrote:but the sense of knowing what I'm doing is a nice illusion to keep up :D
I can see through your smoke and mirrors :P
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:43 am

Post by Vi »

VP Baltar 78 wrote:In the meantime, you can explain this "cautious" play of mine as of page 4 (other than the question mentioned above).
You don't ask many questions, and the ones you do ask don't seem very... strong? for getting this game to go places. Your responses to others' questions are IMO not very helpful, and tend to involve a lot of ideas about setup logic instead of alignments and arguments.

Cut by Rhinox; will respond in a moment...
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:51 am

Post by Vi »

Rhinox 79 wrote:Also, who is to decide what is and isn't worth discussing at this stage of the game, and by what criteria?
Me! Me! Me! Because I said so!
Rhinox 79 wrote:This is basically the entire point I was trying to communicate by my comments about Juls.
Okay.

I guess your post takes care of my concerns about you.
Rhinox 79 wrote:Maybe I'm way off base here, but what exactly are the benefits of trying to pair up scum partners so early in the game? Pokerface can answer this as well.
If you think you have a solid lead... well, still not much, but it's slightly better than nothing.
But Zilla's the one saying that I'm potentially going light on my scumpartners with the questioning. I'm asking her to back that up with who these scumpartners may be.
Rhinox 79 wrote:I can see through your smoke and mirrors :P
Uh-oh *turns the fog machine up*
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:05 am

Post by VP Baltar »

Well, for starters the game started late yesterday afternoon and we haven't even had everyone confirm yet.

And I guess I can't compete with hard-hitting questions such as:
@ShadowGirl: Am I scummy for suggesting that we skip the RVS in favor of revealing discussion?

@VP Baltar: What do you like about the player list?

@Rhinox: When sprayed on windshields, do you cause rhinoceroses to bead and roll down the glass?
@VP Baltar: You call yourself a "relative noob". Are you nervous about this game?
Also, where did your username come from?
So who, potentially, are my scumbuddies based on this approach?
etc.

Also, the main discussion so far in the game has been about whether or not someone should claim Miller early in the game. I don't know how to discuss that without getting into some talks of theory.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:10 am

Post by Jahudo »

Everyone has now posted at least once. Is everyone okay with the rules?

Vote Count #1 of Day 1


Rhinox – PokerFace
PokerFace – Zilla
VP Baltar - Vi

Not Voting – VP Baltar, forbiddanlight, ShadowGirl, don_johnson, charlatan, Juls, Gorrad, Rhinox, ZEEnon.


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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:15 am

Post by Rhinox »

baltar wrote:Well, for starters the game started late yesterday afternoon and we haven't even had everyone confirm yet.
Jahudo wrote:
Everyone has now posted at least once. Is everyone okay with the rules?
:roll: If you're gonna make bad excuses, at make sure they're accurate.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:16 am

Post by VP Baltar »

EBWOP: I guess everyone had confirmed already as of my post. other than that my points stand.
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:22 am

Post by Gorrad »

Rhinox wrote:
Gorrad wrote:Yo! I'm here. Pokerface, you ready to take this game by storm?

The only benefit to a late miller claim is the same as the benefit to any late claim, you aren't giving scum early information. Scum have enough info that any withheld is good withheld. However, the negatives in the case of millers claiming late make doing so not, in my opinion, worth it. Though I must say, I have never played a miller.
What would you say the negatives are then?
Ain't gonna say, as Pokerface asked that question to Zilla.
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:24 am

Post by Rhinox »

Zilla gave his answer in post 58, so now I want to know your answer.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:30 am

Post by Gorrad »

If you claim miller after you've been investigated, not a single person will believe you. It's as good as signing your own death warrant. By claiming early, you at least have a chance of survival should a cop investigate you.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:33 am

Post by Rhinox »

Why would a sane cop ever investigate a claimed miller?
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:34 am

Post by Gorrad »

I don't know, nor do I care to speculate. That's getting into the human factor.
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:36 am

Post by Rhinox »

No, its not. The correct answer is a sane cop would never investigate a claimed miller, because the cop already knows the result is going to be guilty, and it will not be an indicator of the millers allignment. Essentially, it would be a wasted investigation.
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:44 am

Post by Rhinox »

Back to my main point, you said:
gorrad wrote:The only benefit to a late miller claim is the same as the benefit to any late claim, you aren't giving scum early information. Scum have enough info that any withheld is good withheld.
However, the negatives in the case of millers claiming late make doing so not, in my opinion, worth it.
Since you were so vague about what negatives outweighted the benefits, I asked you to clarify. Your answer:
gorrad wrote:If you claim miller after you've been investigated, not a single person will believe you. It's as good as signing your own death warrant. By claiming early, you at least have a chance of survival should a cop investigate you.
...tells me that you would put your own survival over limiting information to the scum, which would overall help the town more than a surviving miller with vanilla powers, IMO.

Thats a scummy stance to take, and I believe the point pokerface was trying to make with his initial interrogation of Juls.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:53 am

Post by Gorrad »

All right. However, I fail to see how it's a scumtell, though it might be not the best stance in your opinion. If you believe me that this would be my opinion in any game, it becomes a null-tell. If you don't, then considering I had nothing to do with the claim at all I fail to see how my answer would be any more likely for a scum to give.

The only way that my answer could be a scumtell is if you believe that the drive for survival, typically taken as a scumtell, is so great that it influences my answer to a question that is in no way related to me.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:05 am

Post by don_johnson »

Catching up post:
pokerface wrote:5. don_johnson = What merit if any do you see in how or why she claimed?
None yet. I will file the claim for later analysis. I have only been in one game with a miller claim, it came at L-1 on day 1 and it turned out to be scum fake claiming.
pokerface wrote:Bonus Question addressed to everyone:
Do you believe her and why?
Juls has given no reason as yet to believe or disbelieve what she says. I find the claim a null tell.
rhinox wrote:Also, anyone know anything about this Cowboy Bebop TV show? Until I got my role PM, I assumed we were all gonna be ridin' steers and square dancin'. Yee Haw!
Hungry bounty hunters floating through space. I watch it more for the art and music than the actual storyline. I imagine this game promises plenty of flavor, though, as some of the characters in the show are unique.
vpbaltar wrote:Just thought of something else as well, it might actually be helpful to the town because if an investigative role did check Juls out and returned an innocent it would be a good indicator of that role's sanity.
^^ I don’t get this. Juls has claimed miller. There is no way to confirm that. Using her to check sanities makes no sense to me. It would not be a good indicator at all.

vp baltar wrote:Potentially. On a purely hypothetical level, if cop received multiple guilties in a row and wasn't sure if they were true or not it could be worthwhile to test it on someone you are somewhat sure of what the result should be. Obviously there is some risk involved depending on the sanity because one could still get a guilty result, but it might be less than the risk of a cop calling out someone they think is scum, lynching town and then being subsequently lynched themselves.
Meh. If a cop received multiple guilties we should already be lynching people, no?

*ping*
shadow wrote:'Seems' to match - obviously it can't be 100% accurate play by play, especially considering she was in the other game for like, six pages. Just the... easily frustrated/irritable behaviour appears to be similar.
How many games have you read/been in with juls? Can you provide evidence where juls is not “easily frustrated/irritable”?
pokerface wrote:And as far as secret's go I've only seen one mini game with an insane cop in it so I just find it unlikly from an expierence stand point. If we do have a miller I don't see a point in further complicating things by throwing in an non-sane cop. Feels like kicking a man while he's already down
You seem to think juls is a confirmed miller. I see the “if” in your statement here, but are you drawing lines between scum buddies based on the speculation that juls is telling the truth? I would like you to explain this connection of baltar/rhinox? Personally I am suspicious of baltar at this point, but rhinox seems to be getting victimized. Also, Juls seems to be coasting on the “miller” claim.
vi wrote:There's also a possibility that everyone in this game is a Cult Leader. That doesn't mean that it's a possibility worth discussing.
Your dissenting view - "well maybe she was planning to do this since the last game" - seems very weak compared to your apparently Amazing Meta on Juls. So why toss dirt at Juls?
Why are you defending juls? Also, why not question shadow girls “meta” argument? At this point, the case against rhinox seems very forced. Both shadow girl and vp baltar seem to be sliiping through, and there seems to be no expectations of juls.


I see vi has moved on, I haven’t found anything particularly scummy about rhinox at this point and I am stunned that everyone seems to be “okay” with letting juls claim miller and sit quietly as we all discuss it.

Juls: please share your thoughts and expectations. Do you see any way that your claim/role can benefit town?
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:06 am

Post by don_johnson »

ebwop: mod, can you fix my tags, i don't see why they wouldn't work there.

Fixed. I don't think it recognized the font. ~Jah.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:42 am

Post by VP Baltar »

don johnson wrote:^^ I don’t get this. Juls has claimed miller. There is no way to confirm that. Using her to check sanities makes no sense to me. It would not be a good indicator at all.
No one said that Juls was confirmed as a miller. She very well may be scum trying to gambit, but I was merely suggesting one possibility for why her claiming miller early, if true, could be a good idea. She would obviously know if she was town or not and would then have to assess whether claiming would be a good idea.
Meh. If a cop received multiple guilties we should already be lynching people, no?
So you are saying if a cop received multiple guilties in a row, you would be inclined to completely trust their sanity without question? Seems funny for someone who is so doubtful of Juls' claim.
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:24 am

Post by Gorrad »

Ha! There we go. A cop could target a claimed miller to test sanity. As a claimed miller would, no matter what, turn up anti-town, they would be a perfect test.
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:38 am

Post by don_johnson »

VP Baltar wrote:
don johnson wrote:^^ I don’t get this. Juls has claimed miller. There is no way to confirm that. Using her to check sanities makes no sense to me. It would not be a good indicator at all.
No one said that Juls was confirmed as a miller. She very well may be scum trying to gambit, but I was merely suggesting one possibility for why her claiming miller early, if true, could be a good idea. She would obviously know if she was town or not and would then have to assess whether claiming would be a good idea.
what?
vp wrote:
Meh. If a cop received multiple guilties we should already be lynching people, no?
So you are saying if a cop received multiple guilties in a row, you would be inclined to completely trust their sanity without question?
Seems funny for someone who is so doubtful of Juls' claim
.
bolded is the giant misrepresentation of my viewpoint on the juls claim.
dj wrote:Juls has given no reason as yet to believe or disbelieve what she says. I find the claim a null tell.



cop investigates one player a night. several means "more than two". meaning cop would have three results and it would be day 4 by the time this "sanity" question would arise according to your theory. if we lynch the first "guilty" player and they flip town, don't you think we would already be questioning sanity? why on earth would we not be lynching players producing "guilty" results? its convoluted, but i don't see how investigating a claimed miller does anything to clear up "sanity" issues. we would need to lynch juls to confirm her role in order to be able to trust the results, just like anyone else.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:01 am

Post by PokerFace »

Vi wrote:
PokerFace 48 wrote:Damn what was she smoking? Pass that good shit arround[/bad joke]
Um, the blowfish is playing in this game, but hasn't posted yet ;)
Forbidden is a good sport. She can take a joke.
Probably a fish. It was an interesting set up if I do say so myself.
See

Her game makes 2 minis I've seen with insane Cops. Charter ran a game with one sane and one insane cop. Scum won by faking miller. Assuming the miller is real this time I doubt we'll have an insane cop.
Vi wrote:
PokerFace 39 wrote:Also I think it is probably a good idea to hear Juls role 'flavor'. Not sure which of the show's character would rationally be a miller in this game.
Do you see any downside to this suggestion? (Forewarning: I do)
I see a slight down side to it pending how significant or ill significant the character is. Some unknown in the white tiger will probably tell us nothing while someone that could rationaly be a miller would be more believeable. Basically the significance of her character can effect how her claim is viewed either way. normally though I see flavor claimed with role in theme games.

Forbidden's response to the claim feels a little off but her general view seems to stand on it being null and she'll judge Juls on her play.
Zilla wrote:
PokerFace wrote:hmm questionaire time

2.
VP Baltar
= As a new player would you claim early or late if you were a miller
3.
forbiddanlight
= Weren't you the mod of the insane asylum game? What do you think of Juls claim here in relation to it?
4.
ShadowGirl
= Should we ask for flavor with Juls claim at this time?
5.
don_johnson
= What merit if any do you see in how or why she claimed?
6.
charlatan
= What are the cons of claiming miller early
7.
Zilla
= What are the cons of claiming miller later
8. Juls = already questioned some good luck in your finals
9.
Gorrad
= What are the pros of claiming miller later
10.
Rhinox
= What are the pros of claiming miller early
11.
Vi
= Is this the first game you have played where you didn't want a random voting stage? If so any particular reason you didn't want one?
12.
ZEEnon
= Which do you think is better, a random vote stage at the start or a discussion stage

Bonus Question addressed to everyone:
Do you believe her and why?
I don't see why you only addressed specific questions to specific players, really, other than maybe not wanting to pose an intimidating question.
I asked different question to different people so that neither one would copy the other. I apreciate you quoteing without reading everyone else's bonus answer. The bonus answer is more important to the game than the other ones since it involves claims and getting reactions to see who is scum. That's why that question was addressed to everyone


Cons of later miller claiming - I dunno, maybe less believable? I'd usually claim later rather than sooner.
Pretty much pending if later is when you were cop checked


I don't particularly believe her, but I don't think it indicates scum either. There's a chance it's a pro-town ploy.
How could it be a protown ploy?


Mind you, I quoted and answered this right after I read it, I haven't read the full thread yet.
My lunch break at work ends now. I'll read the rest later on and comment on it.
When I joined this site I was a software tester for mobile applications and the song PokerFace was not yet written by Lady Gaga
Now I test lottery and gambling software. Its funny how my life has turned out. Somewhere a Time Traveler is laughing madly
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