Mini 805 - Betrayal House - over!


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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:40 am

Post by farside22 »

The old house on the hill has been abandoned for as long as anyone in town can remember. Even the bravest kids never go past the front porch, and many adults nod their heads and say there just may be something to those old rumors. Anyway, why tempt fate?


vote count:


PsychoSniper (3) Oman, AshMC1984, claus
banana 563 (1) Grandi
Grandi (1) banana 563
Oman (2) Namttam, Herodotus
Slicey (1) Kast
skitzer (1) PsychoSniper

Not voting:


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with 12 players it takes 7 to lynch
day 1 deadline is June 21st , 9:00am PST
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:35 am

Post by Kast »

AshMC1984 wrote:Pro: Player claims "My role is Joe"
We are told "Joe found a spear". This might grant a vig-kill or something. Someone turns up killed by a spear - we know who offed him.
How is that a pro?

Why would you claim that it is bad to reveal our cops, but good to reveal our vigs?

@Items granting NK-
I know I raised that possibility, but tbh, I don't know if that is at all likely. In the actual game, some items help with stats, some items don't really do anything other than exist.

Some items may be necessary to win the haunt.

During the Haunt phase, one player becomes a traitor and essentially the game becomes that player versus everyone else. The traitor becomes very powerful compared with the rest of the players.

We have the mafia element to deal with, but I strongly suspect that the traitor will STILL become extremely powerful. At that point in time, it is likely that we will have to cooperate.

@Playing for the team-
I've played games of Betrayal where players tried to cooperate from the beginning and spread resources with the hope that once the Haunt arrived, the group would be in the best condition to win.

I've also played where people play extremely selfishly; if they become the traitor then they're set, if not they can try to solo the Haunt.

With the mafia element, it makes the former playstyle susceptible to mafia hijinks and the latter playstyle much more appealing.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:39 am

Post by AshMC1984 »

Kast wrote:
AshMC1984 wrote:Pro: Player claims "My role is Joe"
We are told "Joe found a spear". This might grant a vig-kill or something. Someone turns up killed by a spear - we know who offed him.
How is that a pro?

Why would you claim that it is bad to reveal our cops, but good to reveal our vigs?
Again, probably just getting ahead of myself in speculation - assuming that these items would be 1-shots. Far too early to continue speculation with any hope for reasonable accuracy I guess.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:07 am

Post by Kast »

From game flavor, I would find it extremely unlikely that any items are 1-shot.

From the dropping items on death game mechanic, I would find it extremely unlikely that any items are 1-shot.

But the accuracy of speculation on whether ability granting items would be 1-shot or not has no bearing on the point in discussion. The point in question is mass name-claiming.

Again I ask, how would it be pro-town to force the player who used such an item to reveal himself?

If you believe there are pro-town effects of mass name-claiming, then explain what those effects are and how those effects help the town.

To be more specific, I do not see any reasonable benefit that having that knowledge would grant to the town at this point in the game. We could potentially run into a situation in future where we need to find a specific item and may need to narrow down which player(s) specifically have that item. But I don't see any reason why it would help to claim now rather than wait until we face such a situation to claim.

@Namttam the "Spinder"guy-
-Are you suffering from any negative consequences other than your post restriction?

-Why were you able to publicly post your question to the mod without using any apparent post restriction?

-I don't remember any "spinders" from the game, but some searching reveals that spinder is another word for spider. Does this jive with whatever flavor reasons you were given for your post restriction?
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:21 am

Post by farside22 »

Prodding the following players:

Grandi
skitzer

This group has not quiet reached the 48 hour period but I'm going out tonight ***this is a mod note more for my records
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Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:31 am

Post by Seraphim »

Hiya. Sorry 'bout not posting, my birthday was today...

Yeah, don't worry, I'll post.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:57 am

Post by AshMC1984 »

@Kast- I'm anti mass-claim unless I hear a very good reason otherwise. I was laying out the pros as I see them, not saying they outweigh the cons, expanding on Slicey's post. Your point about dropped / recovered items does seem to eliminate the 1-shot aspect, but I didn't think of that before. Re: your question my line of thought was:

Vig: a potential target for scum.
1-shot Vig: Pointless scum targeting them after their ability has been used.

If we were aware of who made the potential vig-kill, then they are held accountable for their choice.
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:30 pm

Post by Namttam »

I-I-I probably won't b-b-b-be posting*hic* long p-p-p-posts this first d-d-d-day since I'm s-s-s-s-sure this *hic* is as annoying t-t-t-t-to read as it is t-t-t-t-to type.*hic*
Kast wrote:@Namttam the "Spinder"guy-
-Are you suffering from any negative consequences other than your post restriction?

-Why were you able to publicly post your question to the mod without using any apparent post restriction?

-I don't remember any "spinders" from the game, but some searching reveals that spinder is another word for spider. Does this jive with whatever flavor reasons you were given for your post restriction?
N-n-n-no.*hic* Just the st-st-stuttering and hiccuping.

I f-f-f-figured that the m-m-m-mod would be*hic* ok with me ignoring the r-r-r-restrictions when talking directly*hic* to him.

Y-y-y-yes. I am d-d-d-d-definitely covered with s-s-s-s-spinders, which I t-t-t-took to be like*hic* spiders.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:02 pm

Post by Claus »

PsychoSniper wrote:all I see is you more or less parroting
Funny, because what YOU said is just more or less a summary of the info Kast put on the thread. So when I say it, it is parroting, when you say it, it is... ?
I also asked Herodotus to explain his reasons for wanting a name-claim more clearly.....which is exactly what you did yourself in post 38.
Except that, when he said "I'll say it later", you just said "ah, ok". Weak. On the wall - Scum want to be on the wall and not mess with anyone. Not townies.

Then later you switch to a weak vote on a lurker, when we have much better stuff to go on with. Why, for instance, not vote on heretodus, who has not yet answered your questions?

An when I ask you your opinions on the players, after three pages, you have none. None? Really? Are you playing the game? Or are you just waiting for a townie wagon to form so you can find an excuse to jump in?
So what's your reason for voting me again?
You are extremely on the wall, refusing to really contribute to the game.
The only part of your post tha makes sense to me is the fact that you want to form bandwagons and I just happened to have the most votes.
So why don't you call me scummy for it? Because you know that I'm right about you being scum, and you are praying that if you stare at me in a mean way I'll get scared and back off.

Not going to happen. Happy with my vote :-)
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:06 pm

Post by Claus »

Nattan, your post restriction is a red herring. I get it, you have it. Good for you - still, that tell us nothing about your alignment.

I managed to contribute in "Riverworld" mafia with a post restriction that only allowed me only 2 words per post, no double posting. so I'm sure you can help the town with short, "hiccupy" posts.

Now, how about naming 2 players in the game you find scummy?
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:13 pm

Post by Oman »

Can I also say that farside is definatly not dumb enough to make a game broken by massclaim D1
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:18 pm

Post by Claus »

Kast wrote:@Claus, 38-
I think we can and should do both. I certainly don't agree that discussion about thematic content should be postponed until Day 2.
Kast, the problem with thematic discussion is that Scum is able to discuss it just as well as we are, without giving any info about alignment. It is much harder for scum to talk about who is and isn't scummy without giving away alignment info.

But even town players have a bad habit on relying too much on setup discussion, and forget to scumhunt. So I'd prefer to talk about the setup only when necessary - and I feel that we don't have any reason to be discussing the setup right now.


=======

@Banana (74)

Sizeable wagons are good on the first few days of a mafia game. They force the players to take positions. They join the wagon, justifying their vote (or not), or they disagree with the wagon. Or they stay away. A good day 1 is one where we have two or three 4-5 vote wagons before we agree on a lynch.

In a more practical way, SP having 2 votes on him when I put a serious, 3rd vote is great, because he will feel the pressure more than if he had no votes and I made a case on him. Other players will also think more about the wagon, just like you just did. This is why it is great. Learn to love bandwagons.

As for the reasons, I have worded them two posts ago. How about you, do you find anyone scummy? Do you still find S.P. not scummy?
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:24 pm

Post by Claus »

AshMC1984 wrote: As I said, I've got no prior Betrayal experience and this is all guesswork.
Have you looked the game on a Wiki, or webpage, or is all your knowledge of the game restricted to this Mafia Game?
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:25 pm

Post by Claus »

Finally, sorry for the quintuple posting - I'm now off for the weekend :-)
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:51 pm

Post by AshMC1984 »

Claus wrote:
AshMC1984 wrote: As I said, I've got no prior Betrayal experience and this is all guesswork.
Have you looked the game on a Wiki, or webpage, or is all your knowledge of the game restricted to this Mafia Game?
The only other time I've heard of this games existence is that people are playing it in Mish Mash. I had a quick glance a few weeks ago, don't remember anything about it but it looked interesting enough for me to remember it and /in for this game when it popped up.
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:18 pm

Post by Kast »

Claus wrote:Nattan, your post restriction is a red herring. I get it, you have it. Good for you - still, that tell us nothing about your alignment.
I like this.

@Namttam-
Please don't use a post restriction as an excuse to not take a position.

@Claus on thematic discussion-
-Is it accurate to say you oppose thematic discussion not because you think it is a bad thing itself, but because you think it distracts from much more useful discussion (ie. more traditional scumhunting)?

I disagree with this viewpoint (regardless of whether it accurately summarizes your objection); I don't believe some thematic discussion will be distracting in any manner that significantly hurts the town.

-I also don't think it is really possible to play in the game and completely separate the two, and I think it will be quite necessary to not do so because I believe scum will almost certainly attempt to use some sort of thematic discussion to mask their actions.

Namttam's attempt to use post restriction to excuse low post content may be an example of this. The proposition that the town as a whole might benefit from a mass name-claim due to revelation of item ownership is another potential example.

-Enjoy your weekend and same for me, I'll rejoin you all on Monday.
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:01 pm

Post by Herodotus »

Namttam wrote:I-I-I probably won't b-b-b-be posting*hic* long p-p-p-posts this first d-d-d-day since I'm s-s-s-s-sure this *hic* is as annoying t-t-t-t-to read as it is t-t-t-t-to type.*hic*
Not at all.

I don't find the case on Sniper very strong (though it's only page 4, so I don't find the wagon/case on him scummy either.) However I don't like banana's jumping on a third vote. I've glanced at banana's past games, and yes, he's only played in Newbie games as far as I can tell, but in one of those games he brought a random wagon to L-1, so I don't see how this mitigates his defensive reaction.
unvote, vote Banana


As far as a mass nameclaim is concerned, though I think it will be useful at some point, I see no possible benefit from doing it before at least day 2. People have already covered essentially everything I would say about that.

When the haunt happens, we may get a character name, or a player name. If we do, it's unlikely we'll be able to simply lynch the traitor, but matching their character name and player name could help. But we'll be able to do that by process of elimination after the haunt is announced. I didn't realize at first that the number of players was exactly equal to the number of characters in the board game. But it is, so it's probably safe to assume that the names Kast posted are the names we all have.
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:55 pm

Post by banana 563 »

Herodotus wrote:I've glanced at banana's past games, and yes, he's only played in Newbie games as far as I can tell, but in one of those games he brought a random wagon to L-1, so I don't see how this mitigates his defensive reaction.
I have a feeling that was my first game and I didn't know what I was doing, so now I would be unwilling to put too much pressure on someone for no reason whatsoever.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:13 am

Post by skitzer »

Forgot to watch topic this. Will reread ASAP.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:26 am

Post by Slicey »

Kast wrote:
@Claus on thematic discussion-
-Is it accurate to say you oppose thematic discussion not because you think it is a bad thing itself, but because you think it distracts from much more useful discussion (ie. more traditional scumhunting)?

I disagree with this viewpoint (regardless of whether it accurately summarizes your objection); I don't believe some thematic discussion will be distracting in any manner that significantly hurts the town.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading the QT in Majora's Mask Mafia and I remember someone telling their scummates to do setup speculation because it makes it look like they're contributing, even when they're not. Thematic discussion on D1 is bad for the town, as is name claiming, because it gives scum a chance to post but not take a stance on anything.

That being said, I strongly dislike the PS wagon, because I see no valid reason for there to be one.

Vote: Kast
for trying to promote setup speculation.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:36 pm

Post by Namttam »

Claus wrote:Now, how about naming 2 players in the game you find scummy?
N-n-n-n-no problem.*hic* First S-s-s-s-Slicey. His *hic*vote on Kast f-f-f-for thematic d-d-d-d-discussion*hic* is h-h-h-hypocritical when he did the s-s-s-s-same himself. Also, *hic*his odd f-f-f-f-flip on the mass n-n-n-n-name claim at*hic* the start of the g-g-g-g-game drew suspicion.

*hic*Next, H-h-h-h-Herodotus. He j-j-j-j-jumped onto b-b-b-b-banana 563 *hic*pretty quickly. Using th-th-th-the evidence from*hic* banana's first g-g-g-g-game against him i-i-i-i-is *hic*pretty l-l-l-l-low.

B-b-b-but*hic* for now I'll
Unvote, Vote:Slicey
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:04 am

Post by PsychoSniper »

Claus wrote:
PsychoSniper wrote:all I see is you more or less parroting
Funny, because what YOU said is just more or less a summary of the info Kast put on the thread. So when I say it, it is parroting, when you say it, it is... ?
Did I accuse you of being scummy because you parroted me? I didn't. I was more confused over the fact that everything else you posted fit with what I said, then followed by a vote on me with no actual explanation. I don't consider parroting someone to be scummy action if you happen to agree with said person, but apparently, according what you posted above, you
do
consider it scummy, so why are you doing it yourself?

Herodotus asked everyone for their opinions on nameclaim, and I posted mine, and yes, it agrees with everything Kast said. And that's wrong because.....?
Claus wrote:
I also asked Herodotus to explain his reasons for wanting a name-claim more clearly.....which is exactly what you did yourself in post 38.
Except that, when he said "I'll say it later", you just said "ah, ok". Weak.
And again, that's wrong because....? He didn't say he isn't going to answer, just that he wants to wait to see others' opinion. I can wait, I see no reason not to. Unless you're trying to force a quick Day 1???
Claus wrote: Then later you switch to a weak vote on a lurker, when we have much better stuff to go on with. Why, for instance, not vote on heretodus, who has not yet answered your questions?
I would have thought that answer would be obvious. Let me lay it out simple for you:

- Herodotus says he wants to hear from others before he explains.

- I want to hear his explanation.

- There are lurkers/inactive guys that have yet to voice their opinion on his question. If Hero's answer was an excuse not to answer, getting everyone to speak up takes away that excuse.

Herodotus isn't going to just fade into the background after what he proposed, there's guaranteed to be sustained attention on him for a while, I don't see the need to pressure him at this point.

And there's something else. Since I personally can't see any benefits in name-claims, I sort of figured perhaps Hero was doing this to prompt a reaction from everyone in order to read them instead of really wanting a claim. I've seen other (pro-town) players try this in past games. I see no harm in obstructing him and would rather help it along.

And here's something else that's funny: why would you expect me to vote on Hero for not answering my questions, when you're not doing it yourself? He hasn't answered your question either at the time, did he? You voted me for being willing to wait for his answer, but apparently YOU hadn't pressured him for the same answers you wanted from him.

Hypocritical, much?
Claus wrote: An when I ask you your opinions on the players, after three pages, you have none. None? Really? Are you playing the game? Or are you just waiting for a townie wagon to form so you can find an excuse to jump in?
Funny, the only one who's jumped on a convenient town wagon so far is you, how I love the irony. :)

There were only 3 things of note in that 3 pages: your attack on me, of which I was more confused than suspicious because of how you presented your post; Herodotus suggestion, of which I'd already explained what I wanted; and Slicey being voted by Kast. By your definition, wouldn't I have hopped on the "convenient" Slicey case for being the only other guy to take a serious vote other thean myself if I were scum?
Claus wrote:
So what's your reason for voting me again?
You are extremely on the wall, refusing to really contribute to the game.
Not everyone plays by your style. I don't think it's wrong to listen to what everyone has to say before casting a serious vote.
Claus wrote:
The only part of your post tha makes sense to me is the fact that you want to form bandwagons and I just happened to have the most votes.
So why don't you call me scummy for it? Because you know that I'm right about you being scum, and you are praying that if you stare at me in a mean way I'll get scared and back off.

Not going to happen. Happy with my vote :-)
Why would I call you scummy for that? I know you like bandwagons, there's nothing wrong with that, I understand lots of players play that way, that's why I didn't even question Oman about calling for more votes on me when he clearly just wants a wagon. I just don't like that style myself.

I don't want you to back off, I wanted you to explain because you confused me by repeating everything I said before the vote. I didn't vote Hero for not providing an explanation, why would I do it to you?

Like I said, I didn't vote for someone just because they confuse me. I was waiting to hear your explanation. Now that you have explained, I'm ready to form my opinion.

- You accused me of being on the fence and not contributing because I refused to prematurely accuse ayone of being scummy. Yet, you were already voting for me before I turned down both your questions, so that explanation clearly doesn't stand. And prior to that I was hardly the only person who wasn't attacking someone.

- You cited post 42 as a valid reason to vote for me, but did not elaborate at the time. When I questioned your presentation of that post, the only point you really addressed was the point that "You parroted too!" So? It doesn't explain why you
did the exact same thing
and then went on to call me scummy. Hypocritical action #1.

- You cited post 44 as a valid reason to vote for me because I was willing to wait for Hero's explanation rather than pressuring him, yet you, who asked him the same questions, didn't do what you clearly consider what a town player would do (pressure him yourself). Hypocritical action #2, that's another scummy point checked.

So thank you, i'm ready to "contribute", as you put it, now, because you've posted enough for me to form an opinion of you. I'll probably attract more votes for what some people will consider to be an OMGUS action, but now that I finally have a proper case, I'm going to take it.

Vote: Claus
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:11 am

Post by PsychoSniper »

Herodotus wrote:
As far as a mass nameclaim is concerned, though I think it will be useful at some point, I see no possible benefit from doing it before at least day 2. People have already covered essentially everything I would say about that.

When the haunt happens, we may get a character name, or a player name. If we do, it's unlikely we'll be able to simply lynch the traitor, but matching their character name and player name could help. But we'll be able to do that by process of elimination after the haunt is announced. I didn't realize at first that the number of players was exactly equal to the number of characters in the board game. But it is, so it's probably safe to assume that the names Kast posted are the names we all have.
Umm.....so going by this post you didn't want a nameclaim now, but that it may be beneficial later? I'm not disputing this theory or supporting it at the moment, but I'm questioning why you see fit to raise this discussion on the very first Day. I don't see why this couldn't have waited till the point when you really wanted a claim. Do you have an answer for that?
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:46 am

Post by Oman »

i'm actually getting happier to see pyschosniper pushed further.

I want to see him actually react to this wagon, the fact that he isn't really even looking at is scummy, his words from two posts up aside.
It's unfortunate that good oral sex excuses bad chemistry. - Korts
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banana 563
banana 563
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banana 563
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:55 am

Post by banana 563 »

Why do we need to bandwagon psycho? Is it because he is scummy, or because we need to pressure him to see how he reacts?
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