Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[EmpTyger]

LML:

<snip>EmpTyger and LoudmouthLee have a vendetta going at present, so their votes are on each other.<snip>

(It’s a shame that “catfight” was always used with you and MeMe. I would have liked the feline vocabulary.)

To better explain my vote: After hearing from others, I was no longer thinking you were most suspicious. But I don’t really like “rewarding” evasion with an unvote, especially with a noncritical voting situation that allows for more flexibility in casting. And this echoes an incident in Newbie 85, in which similar questions, when left unresolved, led to disastrous ending for the town. So now I’m back to thinking you’re the most suspicious.

You don’t want to further explain your vote on me? Fine, so be it. But bob posted 2 questions for you in [29]. You’ve ignored them. I reminded you of them in [51]. bob again in [61]. You don’t reply- even though you’re active in other games- until prodded, at which point you claim you have nothing to say.


Krishna:

<snip>less 'post-happy' than, say, <snip> EmpTyger (who is a Tyger, and would therefore be noticed just about anywhere!). <ducks> <snip>

I had an even worse response to your humor, but I decided against making the joke. I figured the joke was so bad everyone would want to lynch me for it, and I just didn’t want to get voted out over some lame “<ducks>” humor. ::rimshot::

But seriously, folks...

<snip>a couple of good reasons for my relatively short posts.

1) I am afraid of getting targeted by the Mafia too early. I haven't lasted longer than Day 2 in any game so far (1st game -- everyone lost in Day 2, 2nd game, I got night-killed on Night 1!), so I'd really rather not give them any reasons to slit my throat in the night (or perhaps garotte me, given this setting?) <smile>

The mafia’s going to target someone at night. No amount of silence will prevent that. This is a team game: (all things being equal) you are hurt the same amount regardless of whether you die or another innocent dies. Nor is it just mafia- you don’t want to be “targeted” by the town. Silence helps the mafia; someone trying to be silent is suspicious. At best, you give the mafia an excuse to remain silent. At worst, you draw the town’s suspicions onto yourself, and they kill you.

2) I'm not quite sure I'm following the level of discussion that's being bandied about on this board, to put it simply. There's been an amazing amount of posts by only a few people, as I see it, each nitpicking on tiny points made by each other.<snip>

Then ask about it. If something seems to not make sense to you, say so. It might be clarified. Or it might not be you- someone might be deliberately saying something that doesn’t make sense. The town isn’t telepathic. We can’t tell what your thinking unless you speak.

Think of it this way: what happens if everyone plays how you’re playing? Is there any chance for the town?


gootentag:
I clicked “find all posts” on the profile- a simple check that can quickly confirm if someone is lurking. Do I need to explain why lurking is bad? [well, evidently- see above] If someone’s posting regularly in other games, but is content to let silence reign here, I think that means something. Yet you’re hardly the worst offender. So I’m wondering why you’re finding my investigation “unnerving”...
Temporarily assuming MeMe is onto something with her cryptic voting, might you be protecting a partner, perhaps?

And not that it’s relevant at this point, but to answer your question from [66]:

Montparnasse, Claquesous, Gueulemer, and Babet

The four chiefs of the Paris underworld, occasionally associated with Thénardier.

They ally with the Thenardiers in a scheme to rob a disguised Valjean. That showdown is my favorite scene in the book, and I am quite loath to spoil it by explaining further. Of the four, the first 2 are most “interesting”: Claquesous was a master of disguise who infiltrated the revolutionaries but was shot by Enjolras for disobediance. Valjean attempted to “pay it forward” to Montparnasse, but he was (at least with respect to Montparnasse) unsuccessful. I think Montparnasse has a thing with Eponine or Azelma, but can’t remember for sure.


vikingfan:
4 posts, all short. To summarize:
[16] Random vote on MeMe + “Never try to outguess the mod.”
[19] Level of Les Mis. familiarity
[36] Attempt at outguessing the mod
[54] “I still lean towards the thinking of not overguessing” + attempt at outguessing the mod.

I’m not as anti-speculation as others in this game, but speculation by itself does not count as contributing. Honestly, my biggest surprise is that MeMe missed you in [62] when she noted Krishna and gootentag had been keeping low profiles.

[LordKrishna]

LML:
I figured the joke was so bad everyone would want to lynch me for it, and I just didn’t want to get voted out over some lame “<ducks>” humor. ::rimshot::

Holy crap, that's totally lynch-worthy...

<snip>someone trying to be silent is suspicious. At best, you give the mafia an excuse to remain silent. At worst, you draw the town’s suspicions onto yourself, and they kill you.

Ah, I see. This is called 'lurking', and it means something like: waiting around to see what has been posted by others, to try to mimic it, rather than posting one's own impressions. And I gather further that this is actually a good Mafia tactic?

vikingfan:
4 posts, all short. To summarize:<snip>
I’m not as anti-speculation as others in this game, but speculation by itself does not count as contributing. Honestly, my biggest surprise is that MeMe missed you in [62] when she noted Krishna and gootentag had been keeping low profiles.

I mentioned this earlier, in my posted reply to MeMe:

I put it to you that in addition to me and gootentag, Mr Stoofer and vikingfan are also less 'post-happy'

but it didn't seem to raise an eyebrow from her. This looks rather odd to me, that she'd miss out on that, after having made such an exhaustive search on the rest of us.

-K

[MeMe]

vikingfan:
4 posts, all short. To summarize:<snip>
I’m not as anti-speculation as others in this game, but speculation by itself does not count as contributing. Honestly, my biggest surprise is that MeMe missed you in [62] when she noted Krishna and gootentag had been keeping low profiles.

I mentioned this earlier, in my posted reply to MeMe:

I put it to you that in addition to me and gootentag, Mr Stoofer and vikingfan are also less 'post-happy'

but it didn't seem to raise an eyebrow from her. This looks rather odd to me, that she'd miss out on that, after having made such an exhaustive search on the rest of us.

I made a search...though not "exhaustive" on

everyone

. And -- hey, boys and girls -- you can too! Just use the handy-dandy "view all posts by" drop down menu at the bottom of the page and voila! You'll be in the know

just like MeMe

!

At the time of my post on the subject, the counts were:

Changling Bob - 5
EmpTyger - 10
gootentag - 2
LordKrishna - 2
LoudmouthLee - 10 (+ one double)
MeMe - 11 (+ one immediate clarification)
Mr Stoofer - 5 (+ one double)
vikingfan - 4

So, I believe I was justified in singling out goot & LK as the ones most lacking in the contribution department. Now:

one

of you picking on me for leaving out a name or two you think I should have included though they'd had at least double the posts of the two I did mention? Kind of interesting. But

two

of you? Well, that starts to look like opportunism, especially since LK has chosen to reiterate the point after ET raised it anew. It doesn't hurt that it takes a little pressure off of you if someone starts questioning the person who pointed out your lack of productivity in the first place, eh LK? And, since we're on the subject -- why did you leave CB out of your two additions, LK? He had the same number of posts as Stoofer, who you considered worthy of mention.

EmpTyger -- I also find your terming my vote on gootentag as "cryptic" rather odd as I'd just explained my reasons for not caring to switch at this point. And you playing at being game savior just makes me giggle. I thought you might have something specific to share and was happily waiting for that. Next time just say "back tomorrow" rather than making it sound like you had something ready to say. Regardless, I'd been one of the last people to contribute and probably wouldn't have had reason to stick a post up unless someone else added content first.

[LoudmouthLee]

Could you ever think, Tyger, that I *do not* want to talk about my role? There's a very REAL reason for this. Your questions have been ignored. They will continue to be ignored. If you feel I'm acting

THAT

scummy, and you want to use a bandwagon on me, I'll talk. But it wouldn't be beneficial for anyone.

[Aelyn]

Just a quick note that I have prodded multiple players due to not posting for a while. If necessary, replacements will be sought out in a couple days.

[vikingfan]

Hm-I could've sworn I posted last night, but for some reason it didn't go through. Hmm..

Anyway, I'm here now. In any case, I'll switch my vote at the end of this post, though I can go elsewhere if I see need.

I'm thinking at this point in time, we probably just need to start bandwagoning someone and get a roleclaim-that's what usually happens day 1. So since we're looking at this route, I'll go with the one who seems to be most suspicious(at least when I look at the posts).

unvote MeMe

vote EmpTyger

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't need a prod either. I have posted a full and detailed account of why my vote is on EmpTyger and nothing I have seen wants to make me change it.

However, I will give a

FOS vikingfan

because he seems to be a genuine lurker: making just enough posts to keep off the lurker rader but not actually saying anything of substance. If EmpTyger turns out to be innocent then his last post [80] will look very suspicious.

[EmpTyger]

I should probably apologize for [70]; I was a bit frustrated. I was surprised to see no one had posted in my absence, so I was trying to collectively chastise the whole town, for both lurking and allowing lurking to occur.
MeMe, gootentag, yes, you both did contribute relatively recently in the thread, but because there had been 48 hours of silence I decided to be comprehensive. However, I did not mean to imply that everyone’s level of noncontribution was comparable.

It sounds like we’re not getting a deadline, so I don’t see any point in lurking prodding. People can speak up or be replaced all by themselves.


LML:
I thought a bit about giving you the benefit of the doubt by dropping the matter, but figured that if you were telling the truth the damage was already done.

Could you ever think, Tyger, that I *do not* want to talk about my role? There's a very REAL reason for this.<snip>

I’m still not telepathic. I don’t know which “reason” fits your case. Maybe you’re an obvious doctor. Maybe you’re a suspicious looking innocent. Maybe you’re mafia without any idea for a claim.

Why do I lean towards the last possibility? Because with only the knowledge of your role you somehow started off with one conclusion, and later your role gave you the exact opposite conclusion. The best explanation I can think of for this discrepancy is that it has nothing to do with your at all- you’re it up as you hear others post. And if you’re not going to offer any alternative explanation, what else am I supposed to think?

And even if you didn’t want to talk about your role, there were a lot of other points brought in [51] that you also ignored. And temporarily assuming you’re correct, why drop out of the game for 4 days? Do you seriously think that I would be the only antitown?

However, it’s pointless to ask me to force you to roleclaim. I hardly can by myself, and it’s silly to try when nearly everyone else is either lurking or voting me. If the town is going to try to bandwagon someone, then I don’t see the town having the same suspicion of you. Maybe if we get replacements, but I doubt it, and that’s going to change the dynamic of the game anyhow. The only other player who the town seems like they might go for instead of me is like gootentag, but it seems counterproductive to antagonize one of the few nonlurkers not already voting for me. Perhaps vikingfan- whose level of participation I’ve remarked upon in [75], and who’s already voting for me anyhow- but I don’t really feel like haphazardly casting a vote and hoping suspicion follows. So I’m going to abandon strategy and just leave my vote where it is- on who I still think is most suspicious.


MeMe:
I, um, actually wasn’t aware of the “view all posts by” feature. I’d been going into profiles and using “find all posts by”. Mea culpa on “back tomorrow”- thanks for the criticism.

<snip>EmpTyger -- I also find your terming my vote on gootentag as "cryptic" rather odd as I'd just explained my reasons for not caring to switch at this point. And you playing at being game savior just makes me giggle. I thought you might have something specific to share and was happily waiting for that. Next time just say "back tomorrow" rather than making it sound like you had something ready to say. Regardless, I'd been one of the last people to contribute and probably wouldn't have had reason to stick a post up unless someone else added content first.<snip>

I’m not sure what to make of your style, and asking you for clarification has seemed counterproductive. However, I’ve thought about it and I think I should just say that I might have made a mistake in saying that. Honestly, every time I think I’ve figured out the intention and meaning of your second sentence above I doubt my conclusion.

The point with vikingfan seemed just odd enough to mention. I did realize there were quite a few likelier explanations ahead of a MeMe-vikingfan mafia. Until the hypothetical revealing of vikingfan as mafia, I’m accepting your explanation.


Mr Stoofer:
In rereading the thread I noticed something I missed earlier:

<snip>

(a)

Just to clarify my 2nd point, I thought that it was suspicious that you were saying that the mod has obviously chosen to include minor characters. Normally it is dangerous to make a false claim a minor character because (although unlikely to be anyone else's character in the game) the town might not believe the claim. So your post 7 seemed to me to be preparing the ground for such a claim.<snip>

If it wasn’t clear, in [7] I was purely referencing Seol’s character, Grantaire. I did not intend that to be a statement either way about my own character.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm thinking at this point in time, we probably just need to start bandwagoning someone and get a roleclaim-that's what usually happens day 1. So since we're looking at this route, I'll go with the one who seems to be most suspicious(at least when I look at the posts).

unvote MeMe

vote EmpTyger

This is indeed a good strategy. I acrtually think on reflection that EmpTyger's reaction to the pressure he has been put under has been fairly non-scummy. So for the time being I am going to

Unvote EmpTyger

.

So who to vote for? Well, MeMe seems to have a thing about gootentag. I would happily put some pressure on gootentag if MeMe could give me a good reason to do this, but so far she has not.

Meanwhile, as I said in my last post, I think that vikingfan's behaviour has been "classic mafia lurker" - i.e. say just enough to avoid an accusation of lurking but do not commit or draw attention to yourself by saying anything of any substance. MeMe: unless you can persuade me to vote for gootentag, I ma going to vote vikingfan.

[MeMe]

I'm not really interested in persuading anyone to vote with me...as I said, I don't know if I'd switch

to

him myself -- but I'm content enough not to switch

from

him at the moment.

I'd consider a vote for vikingfan in future, though.

[vikingfan]

Well, the reason why I haven't been voting is because I've voiced my opinion on the current discussion (don't outguess the mod) and nothing else besides that is happening.

Vote count?

[Changling bob]

I'm now back, and can now safely forget all the dances in my show . Now onto business:

Could you ever think, Tyger, that I *do not* want to talk about my role? There's a very REAL reason for this. Your questions have been ignored. They will continue to be ignored. If you feel I'm acting

THAT

scummy, and you want to use a bandwagon on me, I'll talk. But it wouldn't be beneficial for anyone.

My thoughts on this: the only roles I can think of that you wouldn't want to discus are mafia, SK, doc or cop.
Now if there's a doc, and you're the cop, he can protect you, and you could come forward with who you are.
If you're the doc, you'll want to keep quiet so scum doesn't get you.
If you're either scum, you don't want to come forward.

Now lets assume we don't lynch you (at this point likely). On the grounds that if you don't get nightkilled, you'll look suspicious because that points due scum. However, any scum around could not kill you if you are pro-town, in the hope that we'll lynch you day 2.

Am I the only one thinking that you witholding this information is lose/lose for the town? And if I'm right in this analysis, why aren't you offering the information?

Now if you're pro-town, why would you claim to have information on who the mafia may be? I don't have any information on who the mafia may be. It kinda defeats the object of the game if I did...

@vikingfan: There's always something to be said about any given discussion. I'm sure you've some opinion on what's been going on other than "don't outguess the mod". You know, on the grounds that that isn't the current topic of discussion, which is now leaning towards "how scummy

you

are". With the current consensus seeming to be "quite".

So have you any thoughts on this topic?


I also find it very interesting how everyone has said (to the effect of): "I'm happy with what I've said"

This is a little pointless when there's no decision yet, as it just means the game goes nowhere until a deadline is imposed, at which point everyone goes "but we're not ready yet". So lets talk so that Aelyn doesn't decide to impose a deadline, as then we'd probably mislynch due to not knowing anything about anyone, and having to pick it all up really quickly.

[LoudmouthLee]

Bob, you just need to realize that there is a very

VALID and GOOD

reason for my posts. I'm

TRYING

to get a certain reaction.

Subtle doesn't work for some of us, does it? Or... Maybe it's because you want to know what you're up against.

As for Emp.. for now, I find your reactions grounded. So I will

Unvote: Tyger

I wish the majority of you already knew how I played Mafia. You'd be able to pick up on my cues.

Witholding this info, Bob, is win/win for the town. I promise you. I know my role. I know how to play my role. Methinks you ask too much.

Vote: Bob

[Aelyn]

Monsieur Hugo notices his name called, and steps forward to deliver his beliefs regarding the difficult choice ahead:

EmpTyger - 1 (vikingfan)
Gootentag - 1 (MeMe)
LoudmouthLee – 1 (Emptyger)
Changling Bob – 1 (LoudmouthLee)

Not voting: Changling Bob, Gootentag, LordKrishna, Mr Stoofer.

8 alive, 5 to lynch.

There’s no impending need for a deadline. However, if discussion slacks again I will impose one.

[LordKrishna]

Well, the reason why I haven't been voting is because I've voiced my opinion on the current discussion (don't outguess the mod) and nothing else besides that is happening.

Your opinion as stated has been "Don't outguess the mod," but your actions, as EmpTyger has pointed out, have been outguessing the mod on things like setup of roles and characters, etc.

Even if this is not suspicious, it is certainly inconsistent, and you repeating the phrase "Don't outguess the mod" has gotten a bit tiresome, particularly as no one is trying to do so, but is rather, trying to draw out scum.

FOS: vikingfan

.

Post something with your opinions, and maybe I'll stop pointing.

-K

[Mr Stoofer]

Lots of people have

FOS

sed vikingfan without voting for him - including me. The vote count suggests to me that we are not making progress, so to get things moving I'm going to

Vote: vikingfan

.

[Changling bob]

Bob, you just need to realize that there is a very

VALID and GOOD

reason for my posts. I'm

TRYING

to get a certain reaction.

Subtle doesn't work for some of us, does it? Or... Maybe it's because you want to know what you're up against.

As for Emp.. for now, I find your reactions grounded. So I will

Unvote: Tyger

I wish the majority of you already knew how I played Mafia. You'd be able to pick up on my cues.

Witholding this info, Bob, is win/win for the town. I promise you. I know my role. I know how to play my role. Methinks you ask too much.

Vote: Bob

*reacts*


According to my admittedly limited experience of mafia, there are few times when withholding information is good for the town, with the exception of doc.

[logic]LML is withholding information.
Withholding information (usually) means scum or doc.
Hence, LML is (probably) either scum or doc.
If LML is not scum, he is probably doc, and hence will have a huge target on his back tonight.[/logic]

Now, as far as my logic goes, I'd rather know what I'm up against, if it's all the same to you, as it means that the town is going to be at an advantage, due to, you know, knowing what they're up against.

Now you've said you'll talk if there ends up a bandwagon on you, and I'm tempted to start one to get you to talk. But really, if you've got pro-town information, starting a bandwagon on you is a bad idea, as scum will jump on to try and get you lynched before you get a chance to talk.

So please excuse me if I'm being naive about what you're talking about, but I just don't buy it. Going back to my logic above, you're probably either doc or scum, and out of these, only scum are going to know who scum are...

[EmpTyger]

LML:
I’m not buying it either, because *you* brought up your role first, completely unprompted:

Let me first say that after some serious thought, I will withdraw my idea about Javert being scum. After looking at MY role, I can assume who I think the scum are. Javert would not be one of them.

If you didn’t want attention brought upon it, why invite discussion?

I wish the majority of you already knew how I played Mafia. You'd be able to pick up on my cues.

Not really an excuse- you knew who’d be reading when you made your posts. Out of curiosity, though, who belongs to this minority of “played with LML before”? Can any of them comment on this matter?


bob:
I’m not ready to assume it’s as simple as “scum or doc”, but I agree with your general point.


vikingfan:
If LML ever can clear his matter up, I’m going to be switching my vote to you awfully quickly. To put it another way: “I'd consider a vote for vikingfan in future, though.”


gootentag:
Not as bad as vikingfan, but you still seem to be on the wrong side of the lurking line.

[LoudmouthLee]

LML:
I’m not buying it either, because *you* brought up your role first, completely unprompted:

Let me first say that after some serious thought, I will withdraw my idea about Javert being scum. After looking at MY role, I can assume who I think the scum are. Javert would not be one of them.

If you didn’t want attention brought upon it, why invite discussion?

I wish the majority of you already knew how I played Mafia. You'd be able to pick up on my cues.

Not really an excuse- you knew who’d be reading when you made your posts. Out of curiosity, though, who belongs to this minority of “played with LML before”? Can any of them comment on this matter?


bob:
I’m not ready to assume it’s as simple as “scum or doc”, but I agree with your general point.


vikingfan:
If LML ever can clear his matter up, I’m going to be switching my vote to you awfully quickly. To put it another way: “I'd consider a vote for vikingfan in future, though.”


gootentag:
Not as bad as vikingfan, but you still seem to be on the wrong side of the lurking line.

I'll put it to you simply...

Yes: I know I'm bring attention to myself.
Yes: I know I'm doing it.
Yes: I have a power role.
Yes: My power role has more value this way. Trust me on this.

If you want to allow the Mafia the upper hand, go ahead and try to make me claim. You won't be happy.

[Changling bob]

<snip>bob:
I’m not ready to assume it’s as simple as “scum or doc”, but I agree with your general point.<snip>

I realise I'm oversimplifying, but "unprotectable power role or scum" doesn't really have the same ring to it.

I'll put it to you simply...

Yes: I know I'm bring attention to myself.
Yes: I know I'm doing it.
Yes: I have a power role.
Yes: My power role has more value this way. Trust me on this.

If you want to allow the Mafia the upper hand, go ahead and try to make me claim. You won't be happy.

So, you want to bring attention to yourself as having a power role (and presumably a pro-town one), and yet won't claim as that way the mafia get the upper hand? Surely they have all the advantage they need already, as they can just kill you tonight and be done with it. I'm now officially confused. Where's the advantage to not telling us?

[Mr Stoofer]

For what it is worth, I am not in favour of LML revelaing anything more about his role at this stage. I'm a bit nervous about Changling Bob's repeated attempts to extract information from him.

I still think that vikingfan is by far the mosts suspicious character at this stage and that we should be focussing our energies on him until persuaded otherwise.

[Changling bob]

For what it is worth, I am not in favour of LML revelaing anything more about his role at this stage. I'm a bit nervous about Changling Bob's repeated attempts to extract information from him.<snip>

Sorry if I appear over eager, but as far as I know, generally withholding information is not good for town.

But then I'm paranoid and would rather have the info to work with.

Meh, I'll drop for now if we have more pressing matters.

Like, for example, vikingfan's distinct lack of posting.....

[EmpTyger]

I’m willing to press vikingfan, but I would like to state I’m unsatisfied with LML’s explanations. However, since suspicions on vikingfan seem more unanimous:

Unvote: LoudmouthLee
Vote: vikingfan

(Well, nearly unanimous- I can’t find anywhere where LML or gootentag note him as being suspicious...)


LML:
I’m having an awful hard time accepting as a valid excuse what is effectively “I’m acting suspicious deliberately, so don’t treat me suspiciously.”.

Temporarily assuming you are telling the complete truth, I can’t see how revealing the knowledge of who’s familiar with your style would cheapen the power of your role. So could you at least say who you’ve played with before?

[LoudmouthLee]

I'm a longtime GL player.

[vikingfan]

Strange. I've posted here once each the last 2 days and neither of my posts are showing up-Hmmmm....maybe this post will make them appear.

Anyway, I'm here(assuming this post actually shows up), but I still stick with not outguessing the mod. I'm inclined to believe LML for now, though i haven't played with him before. So far, I'm still happy with my vote on EmpTyger, though I can go elsewhere if persuaded.

As far as bandwagoning me, I'm fine with it, but I can tell you right now that you're barking up the wrong tree-at least 2 people can verify me.